Report on Catholic Abuse = Cynicism Spreading?

[TOmNossor]

I would like to say that I thought of posting that I am uncomfortable with the idea that the Catholic Church is false because she has such problems. 

I hope my friend who posted about Schadenfreude also did so without reading.

Fortunately, I read your post first and I do not think you did this!

Thank you for that!  I just finished being frustrated (after refraining from commenting for 4 days) by something extraordinary coming from an anti-Mormon Catholic who I believe is profoundly myopic (and/or blinded by his hate for Mormonsim).

Charity, TOm

Edited August 19, 2018 by TOmNossor

[TOmNossor]

I have thought about how to protect youth a bit.

For about $1000 per bishop’s office and about $200k of development, I think a few changes could make a big difference.

Bishops will be behind their desks, youth will close the door and sit in a chair across from the desk.  If both are not seated in 15sec, the door will open AND a somewhat obnoxious beep will sound until it is ignored for 45sec leading to a very obnoxious beep or the door is closed for another 15sec attempt.  If both are seated after 15sec, when the youth later stand up he/she will have 15sec to open the door of said somewhat obnoxious beep will sound and door will pop open (the Bishop will not get up).    

The conversation will be recorded, but upon leaving the youth will choose to delete the conversation or send it to the stake president, themselves, and maybe someone else (parent or police), indicating that the conversation was inappropriate somehow.

I do not know if it is COMMON for a LDS bishop to give a “father’s blessing” to youth.  I was never a LDS youth.  The above would frustrate this, but I am not sure if it happens.

If I was made the head of the CoJCoLDS tomorrow and continued to have the degree of inspiration I currently have (God help us), this is what I would do to protect youth, Bishops, and the church.

I have not seen solid evidence that the Bishop interview process results in substantial risk to youth AND I believe that there are considerations of which I am not aware.  So, if nothing happens, I think that is fine.  If things get much worse (or are shown to be much worse) and there are significant and clear abuses, I think something will then need to be done.

I hope that is not too much “ark steadying.”

I have thought what I would do if I knew Mr. Young.  If I knew him to care deeply about the church AND to not be involved and/or sympathetic with many criticisms of the church, I would counsel him to pursue his agenda differently, but I would respect his concerns and see them as a viable opinion.  If he had encouraged every criticism of the church from Delhin to Kelly to … I could still consider him flawed human worthy of my love, but I would not believe his criticism was founded in profound concern.

Charity, TOm

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, TOmNossor said:

I would like to say that I thought of posting that I am uncomfortable with the idea that the Catholic Church is false because she has such problems. 

I hope my friend who posted about Schadenfreude also did so without reading.

Fortunately, I read your post first and I do not think you did this!

Thank you for that!  I just finished being frustrated (after refraining from commenting for 4 days) by something extraordinary coming from an anti-Mormon Catholic who I believe is profoundly myopic (and/or blinded by his hate for Mormonsim).

Charity, TOm

I am so sorry that that comment was so misunderstood.

I felt that the post to which I was responding  was "pure Schadenfreude" not that I was feeling that emotion.

In my opinion, It was a patronizing, and condescending post.

Edited August 19, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

31 minutes ago, TOmNossor said:

I have thought about how to protect youth a bit.

For about $1000 per bishop’s office and about $200k of development, I think a few changes could make a big difference.

Bishops will be behind their desks, youth will close the door and sit in a chair across from the desk.  If both are not seated in 15sec, the door will open AND a somewhat obnoxious beep will sound until it is ignored for 45sec leading to a very obnoxious beep or the door is closed for another 15sec attempt.  If both are seated after 15sec, when the youth later stand up he/she will have 15sec to open the door of said somewhat obnoxious beep will sound and door will pop open (the Bishop will not get up).    

The conversation will be recorded, but upon leaving the youth will choose to delete the conversation or send it to the stake president, themselves, and maybe someone else (parent or police), indicating that the conversation was inappropriate somehow.

I do not know if it is COMMON for a LDS bishop to give a “father’s blessing” to youth.  I was never a LDS youth.  The above would frustrate this, but I am not sure if it happens.

If I was made the head of the CoJCoLDS tomorrow and continued to have the degree of inspiration I currently have (God help us), this is what I would do to protect youth, Bishops, and the church.

I have not seen solid evidence that the Bishop interview process results in substantial risk to youth AND I believe that there are considerations of which I am not aware.  So, if nothing happens, I think that is fine.  If things get much worse (or are shown to be much worse) and there are significant and clear abuses, I think something will then need to be done.

I hope that is not too much “ark steadying.”

I have thought what I would do if I knew Mr. Young.  If I knew him to care deeply about the church AND to not be involved and/or sympathetic with many criticisms of the church, I would counsel him to pursue his agenda differently, but I would respect his concerns and see them as a viable opinion.  If he had encouraged every criticism of the church from Delhin to Kelly to … I could still consider him flawed human worthy of my love, but I would not believe his criticism was founded in profound concern.

Charity, TOm

Typically the Bishop's office is next to the clerk's office.

Put in a window between the offices (soundproof) and make sure someone is in the clerk's office as a witness

Problem solved.

Bishops DO give blessings as inspired or requested but usually two priesthood holders are involved.  They are not considered "father's blessings" simply because the person giving the blessing is not the father of the youth.  I suppose they would be "Bishop's blessings" if one wanted to designate a name

Edited August 19, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

On 8/17/2018 at 3:15 PM, USU78 said:

I am unhappy that the scale of abuse by adults of children/tweens/teens has been so grotesquely burlesqued in the media and, unhappily, by folks on this very board.

How can anyone have forgotten this:  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/has-media-ignored-sex-abuse-in-school/ ?

We owe our Catholic cousins, as well as LDS Bishops everywhere, an apology.

Scale, people!  

I want to make it clear that my earlier comment about "schadenfreude" was misconstrued

It never occurred to me that it was possible- that the post in question would not stand out to others as condescending as it was to me.

[mfbukowski]

On 8/17/2018 at 11:59 AM, smac97 said:

I have to agree with this.  I know many good and decent people who are celibate and who are not a threat to children.

That said, I think the unique form of lifelong celibacy practiced by Catholic priests may be a contributing factor.  See, e.g., these remarks by Robert Smith:

This article, written by Father Roger J. Landry with the Diocese of Fall River, Massachusetts, includes statements indicating widespread sexual dysfunction in the Catholic priesthood, including extensive homosexual misconduct, pedophilia and "ephebophilia."  Are candidates entering the priesthood bringing these dysfunctions with them through the front door, or are these dysfunctions arising afterward, with celibacy being a signifcant causative factor?

I don't know.  I think research and analysis needs to be done (or, if such research has been done, we need to find it and discuss it).

I will once again express my sympathy and support for our wonderful Catholic brothers and sisters who are coping with this very difficult issue in their community.  

Thanks,

-Smac

"Sympathy and comfort" while including the fact that you actually KNOW people who are celibate and NOT a threat to children!

Remarkable!

And yet you don't know if celibacy is related to sexual disfunction. 

And of course Mormons don't have such problems because we are not celibate? I mean it's generous I suppose to offer sympathy to our brothers and sisters who apparently DO have such a problem in their community because we of course do not have such problems and we can be magnanimous and sympathetic to those who do?

And do Mormons who have these problems learn them at church or bring them with them into the church?  Shall we consider that option?

Of course I am probably wrong and overly sensitive....

Just seems a little two-faced to me.

 

Edited August 19, 2018 by mfbukowski

[USU78]

16 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I want to make it clear that my earlier comment about "schadenfreude" was misconstrued

It never occurred to me that it was possible- that the post in question would not stand out to others as condescending as it was to me.

I wasn't talking about anything you said. Indeed, I took your offerings as supportive of the RC in the face of this mess.

[why me]

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Hi there, guy from the trenches here.  I think I heard my first pedophile priest joke back in the 1970's before I was a teenager.  Lots of joking about why altar boys all sing high notes, and Father McFeeley, and why there are castrati, and other lowbrow jabs at how molestation ran rampant amongst children in the Catholic church.

If you need a bit of proof of how it was pretty enshrined the notion was in the culture, remember Triumph the Dog from the Conan O'Brian show?  He covered the premiere of StarWars Episode II (2002), one of the jokes was "Thousands of thirty five year old men waiting days and even months for just a taste of George lucas’s table scraps. Lonely men who have never had sex, not even with a catholic priest."  That was sixteen years ago.

"No one would believe".   I guess it depends on which social circle from which you draw that conclusion. 

Jokes are jokes. But since so many children were abused, it is obvious that many people had trust in their own priest. And I do stress 'own' priest. Catholics who would receive communion from their priest, went to confession to their own priest and shared private thoughts were their own priest, would not or could not believe that their priest could be a child molester. And this is where the disappointment takes place: to discover that it was the priest in their own parish.

However, now I believe that trust has eroded for priests and catholics will be careful with their children even with their own priest.

[smac97]

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

"Sympathy and comfort" while including the fact that you actually KNOW people who are celibate and NOT a threat to children!

Remarkable!

How so?  What is incongruous about expressing sympathy and comfort for a group of people whom I admire while also attempting to address a point someone else raised about that group?

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And yet you don't know if celibacy is related to sexual disfunction. 

Across the board and in all circumstances?  No, I do not know that.  Do you?

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And of course Mormons don't have such problems because we are not celibate?

I think some of us do, in fact, have such problems.

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I mean it's generous I suppose to offer sympathy to our brothers and sisters who apparently DO have such a problem in their community because we of course do not have such problems and we can be magnanimous and sympathetic to those who do?

I do not understand your sneering tone and anger.  This is a difficult topic to address, and you are adding to that difficulty.

I have great respect for the Catholic Church.  I am alarmed about the sex abuse scandal, and the cover-up associated with it, discussed in the OP.  I have sympathy for our Catholic brothers and sisters.  I am flummoxed that you are angry at that.

I have a friend who was recently released from prison, having spent the last several years incarcerated for convictions on sex abuse charges.  While in prison I and my family have gone to some lengths to show love and support to this man's wife and children.  The same sort of "sympathy and comfort" I feel for our Catholic friends (albeit in a more generalized way).

And yes, my friend was, and is, LDS.

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And do Mormons who have these problems learn them at church or bring them with them into the church?  Shall we consider that option?

If you like.  What teachings are espoused by the LDS Church which, in your view, are causally linked to profound and widespread sexual dysfunction?

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Of course I am probably wrong and overly sensitive....

Just seems a little two-faced to me.

I feel something of a kinship with other religious groups that, like ours, attempt to provide a meaningful and healthy moral and spiritual framework for their adherents.  Sometimes these attempts can go seriously awry, as is evident with the grand jury report in the OP.

I continue to have respect for the Catholic faith and its adherent.

I am very disturbed at the widespread sexual abuse and coverup issues that are becoming evident as described in the OP.

I am hoping that our Catholic brothers and sisters, who are coping with this very difficult issue, can do so effectively and begin to heal the damage done to their community.

If would hope that we Latter-day Saints would also be able to identify and root out such a profound and serious problem in our midst, were one to arise.

I have no idea why you are continuing to try to personalize this thread.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

"Sympathy and comfort" while including the fact that you actually KNOW people who are celibate and NOT a threat to children!

Remarkable!

And yet you don't know if celibacy is related to sexual disfunction. 

And of course Mormons don't have such problems because we are not celibate? I mean it's generous I suppose to offer sympathy to our brothers and sisters who apparently DO have such a problem in their community because we of course do not have such problems and we can be magnanimous and sympathetic to those who do?

And do Mormons who have these problems learn them at church or bring them with them into the church?  Shall we consider that option?

Of course I am probably wrong and overly sensitive....

Just seems a little two-faced to me.

 

I have no idea if you're saying that members of the church don't have these problems (making your post snarky but sincerely stated) if you're being snarky and sarcastic.  Can you clarify?

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

How so?  What is incongruous about expressing sympathy and comfort for a group of people whom I admire while also attempting to address a point someone else raised about that group?

Across the board and in all circumstances?  No, I do not know that.  Do you?

I think some of us do, in fact, have such problems.

I do not understand your sneering tone and anger.  This is a difficult topic to address, and you are adding to that difficulty.

I have great respect for the Catholic Church.  I am alarmed about the sex abuse scandal, and the cover-up associated with it, discussed in the OP.  I have sympathy for our Catholic brothers and sisters.  I am flummoxed that you are angry at that.

I have a friend who was recently released from prison, having spent the last several years incarcerated for convictions on sex abuse charges.  While in prison I and my family have gone to some lengths to show love and support to this man's wife and children.  The same sort of "sympathy and comfort" I feel for our Catholic friends (albeit in a more generalized way).

And yes, my friend was, and is, LDS.

If you like.  What teachings are espoused by the LDS Church which, in your view, are causally linked to profound and widespread sexual dysfunction?

I feel something of a kinship with other religious groups that, like ours, attempt to provide a meaningful and healthy moral and spiritual framework for their adherents.  Sometimes these attempts can go seriously awry, as is evident with the grand jury report in the OP.

I continue to have respect for the Catholic faith and its adherent.

I am very disturbed at the widespread sexual abuse and coverup issues that are becoming evident as described in the OP.

I am hoping that our Catholic brothers and sisters, who are coping with this very difficult issue, can do so effectively and begin to heal the damage done to their community.

If would hope that we Latter-day Saints would also be able to identify and root out such a profound and serious problem in our midst, were one to arise.

I have no idea why you are continuing to try to personalize this thread.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Could it be that both the Catholics and LDS have had the sexual dysfunction since day one? Could it have been passed down for centuries? In the genes? I wonder. And that includes all of mankind and those in religions. I am so grateful that we have the capabilities now to be vocal worldwide about these things and hopefully stop the abuse from occurring for future generations. Of course, I know this won't irradicate it all, but hopefully make a huge dent. Getting these things out in the open help immensely. Have you seen "Spotlight"? I think this is a big breakthrough! The sickness or wounds need to be exposed to the light.  

[The Nehor]

19 hours ago, USU78 said:

So ... CBS weighs in claiming astoundingly high teacher abuse of students, in numbers that dwarf ecclesiastical abuse of youth parishioners, mental and emotional abuse by teachers with frightening frequency, and here http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/sexual-disorders/lessons-learn-female-educators-who-sexually-abuse-their-students we have a study showing the chance of a student being abused by a teacher at one in 10. 

I don't understand why you would quibble over this. The incidence of ecclesiastical abuse of young people, sexual or emotional, is just not that big, yet fills up a large part of people's thoughts. Why is that? 

Part of the reason is that generally school systems report and fire teachers who are caught abusing students. The Catholic Church has a bad habit of covering it up.

CBS did not “weigh in”. They published a guess. This article is 8 years old and is a compilation from multiple sources (already suspect) and estimates a 10% chance of experiencing some level of sexual misconduct which runs the whole gamut from assault to flirting. None of that is okay but it does stretch the meaning of the word abuse.

I look forward to the next random article you Google.

[The Nehor]

16 hours ago, TOmNossor said:

I have thought about how to protect youth a bit.

For about $1000 per bishop’s office and about $200k of development, I think a few changes could make a big difference.

Bishops will be behind their desks, youth will close the door and sit in a chair across from the desk.  If both are not seated in 15sec, the door will open AND a somewhat obnoxious beep will sound until it is ignored for 45sec leading to a very obnoxious beep or the door is closed for another 15sec attempt.  If both are seated after 15sec, when the youth later stand up he/she will have 15sec to open the door of said somewhat obnoxious beep will sound and door will pop open (the Bishop will not get up).    

The conversation will be recorded, but upon leaving the youth will choose to delete the conversation or send it to the stake president, themselves, and maybe someone else (parent or police), indicating that the conversation was inappropriate somehow.

I do not know if it is COMMON for a LDS bishop to give a “father’s blessing” to youth.  I was never a LDS youth.  The above would frustrate this, but I am not sure if it happens.

If I was made the head of the CoJCoLDS tomorrow and continued to have the degree of inspiration I currently have (God help us), this is what I would do to protect youth, Bishops, and the church.

I have not seen solid evidence that the Bishop interview process results in substantial risk to youth AND I believe that there are considerations of which I am not aware.  So, if nothing happens, I think that is fine.  If things get much worse (or are shown to be much worse) and there are significant and clear abuses, I think something will then need to be done.

I hope that is not too much “ark steadying.”

I have thought what I would do if I knew Mr. Young.  If I knew him to care deeply about the church AND to not be involved and/or sympathetic with many criticisms of the church, I would counsel him to pursue his agenda differently, but I would respect his concerns and see them as a viable opinion.  If he had encouraged every criticism of the church from Delhin to Kelly to … I could still consider him flawed human worthy of my love, but I would not believe his criticism was founded in profound concern.

Charity, TOm

That is an unrealistic pipe dream. Something in this overly complex system is going to break routinely and set off alarms. So expensive repairs all the time. They are going to forget to turn it on for a youth interview. It is easily circumventsble and everyone will eventually just turn the stupid thing off.

If this is the inspiration you would bring I for one am glad you are not in charge.

Edited August 19, 2018 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Could it be that both the Catholics and LDS have had the sexual dysfunction since day one? Could it have been passed down for centuries? In the genes? I wonder. And that includes all of mankind and those in religions. I am so grateful that we have the capabilities now to be vocal worldwide about these things and hopefully stop the abuse from occurring for future generations. Of course, I know this won't irradicate it all, but hopefully make a huge dent. Getting these things out in the open help immensely. Have you seen "Spotlight"? I think this is a big breakthrough! The sickness or wounds need to be exposed to the light.  

So you are arguing without evidence that most people here are fundamentally genetically flawed and that eugenics is the solution? I bet that is going to get a warm reception.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So you are arguing without evidence that most people here are fundamentally genetically flawed and that eugenics is the solution? I bet that is going to get a warm reception.

Whatever...not what I said at all. 

[USU78]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Part of the reason is that generally school systems report and fire teachers who are caught abusing students. The Catholic Church has a bad habit of covering it up.

CBS did not “weigh in”. They published a guess. This article is 8 years old and is a compilation from multiple sources (already suspect) and estimates a 10% chance of experiencing some level of sexual misconduct which runs the whole gamut from assault to flirting. None of that is okay but it does stretch the meaning of the word abuse.

I look forward to the next random article you Google.

You're probably right. We should just accept burlesques of events by antireligionist press wonks. We should definitely ignore the Church's response to the report from the grand jury: https://www.catholicleague.org/pennsylvania-grand-jury-report-debunked-2/

USU "Thinking about indicted ham sandwiches" 78

[Storm Rider]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Could it be that both the Catholics and LDS have had the sexual dysfunction since day one? Could it have been passed down for centuries? In the genes? I wonder. And that includes all of mankind and those in religions. I am so grateful that we have the capabilities now to be vocal worldwide about these things and hopefully stop the abuse from occurring for future generations. Of course, I know this won't irradicate it all, but hopefully make a huge dent. Getting these things out in the open help immensely. Have you seen "Spotlight"? I think this is a big breakthrough! The sickness or wounds need to be exposed to the light.  

Is it in the genes of those who are believers in the Church of Jesus Christ or Catholicism? Hmm, that is a strange question. I think the answer is that it is not so narrowly defined - it is a human condition. Humanity, God's children, live in a carnal state - male and female alike. In this state, each individual's carnal passions are in conflict with their spiritual nature. Simple because an individual chooses to follow God's teachings does not remove those carnal passions. 

The tragedy for so many is that it does not matter what the calling, the Vocation, of individuals - they still must deal with their carnal desires. I think the conflict is that most of humanity has a high expectation that an individual will be more righteous than others. I think the reality is that most of the time that is a correct assumption. Yet, there are exceptions and this throws everyone for a twirl and creates huge disappointments and harm to the faithful. 

I agree with you that light needs to be shown on these gross sins in order to heal the abused and to bring the abuser into a path of repentance. 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Whatever...not what I said at all. 

It was weirder then that?

42 minutes ago, USU78 said:

You're probably right. We should just accept burlesques of events by antireligionist press wonks. We should definitely ignore the Church's response to the report from the grand jury: https://www.catholicleague.org/pennsylvania-grand-jury-report-debunked-2/

USU "Thinking about indicted ham sandwiches" 78

The debunking is arguing that only half the "credible" accusations in most investigations are "substantiated" so we can expect about half the reports to be false. How the hell is that a debunking? It wasn't a criminal investigation. It never was. Of course it is possible some of them are exaggerated or wrong. Of course just because something cannot be substantiated also does not mean it did not happen. And okay, chop the numbers in half if you want. It is still horrifying.

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Could it be that both the Catholics and LDS have had the sexual dysfunction since day one? Could it have been passed down for centuries? In the genes? I wonder. And that includes all of mankind and those in religions. I am so grateful that we have the capabilities now to be vocal worldwide about these things and hopefully stop the abuse from occurring for future generations. Of course, I know this won't irradicate it all, but hopefully make a huge dent. Getting these things out in the open help immensely. Have you seen "Spotlight"? I think this is a big breakthrough! The sickness or wounds need to be exposed to the light.  

Gosh, I am sure glad I am a convert then, I don't have the gene !

[USU78]

17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It was weirder then that?

The debunking is arguing that only half the "credible" accusations in most investigations are "substantiated" so we can expect about half the reports to be false. How the hell is that a debunking? It wasn't a criminal investigation. It never was. Of course it is possible some of them are exaggerated or wrong. Of course just because something cannot be substantiated also does not mean it did not happen. And okay, chop the numbers in half if you want. It is still horrifying.

Once again: scale. Nobody's saying any of this is remotely okay.

There is no 100% safe place in this world. Life is too often tragically sad. Children get predated by family more than any other group. Teachers are next. Trusted community members, including clergy, next. Strangers least frequent of all. All of them horrible.

So let's be fair. Just because antireligionist policy makers and press wonks make the clergy out to be the bogeyman of our nightmares doesn't make them such.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

Is it in the genes of those who are believers in the Church of Jesus Christ or Catholicism? Hmm, that is a strange question. I think the answer is that it is not so narrowly defined - it is a human condition. Humanity, God's children, live in a carnal state - male and female alike. In this state, each individual's carnal passions are in conflict with their spiritual nature. Simple because an individual chooses to follow God's teachings does not remove those carnal passions. 

The tragedy for so many is that it does not matter what the calling, the Vocation, of individuals - they still must deal with their carnal desires. I think the conflict is that most of humanity has a high expectation that an individual will be more righteous than others. I think the reality is that most of the time that is a correct assumption. Yet, there are exceptions and this throws everyone for a twirl and creates huge disappointments and harm to the faithful. 

I agree with you that light needs to be shown on these gross sins in order to heal the abused and to bring the abuser into a path of repentance. 

In my post I included all of mankind in with the Catholics & LDS. And my comment was coming totally from my gut about the gene part, but just after reading MFbukowski's response to me, I googled and it had some articles that a pedophile could have it in their genes, emphasis on could though, after I read a few articles. https://theconversation.com/sex-offending-may-be-in-the-genes-but-knowing-that-wont-prevent-it-40286 

But it surprised me that I have caused such a big hoopla over it. And I first put Catholic and LDS, because that was the subject more or less. And thanks for your decent response, I appreciate that!

[Tacenda]

22 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I want to make it clear that my earlier comment about "schadenfreude" was misconstrued

It never occurred to me that it was possible- that the post in question would not stand out to others as condescending as it was to me.

bold mine...

Boy, do I know how that feels!!

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

In my post I included all of mankind in with the Catholics & LDS. And my comment was coming totally from my gut about the gene part, but just after reading MFbukowski's response to me, I googled and it had some articles that a pedophile could have it in their genes, emphasis on could though, after I read a few articles. https://theconversation.com/sex-offending-may-be-in-the-genes-but-knowing-that-wont-prevent-it-40286 

But it surprised me that I have caused such a big hoopla over it. And I first put Catholic and LDS, because that was the subject more or less. And thanks for your decent response, I appreciate that!

When we step back from it and discuss it from another perspective....we talk about individual spirits coming into this world with their own individual strengths and weaknesses. It may possibly be that some of our weaknesses are implemented through DNA, but that again falls under the mortal probation we all must endure for the purpose of learning and demonstrating the desire of our hearts. 

On another note, I found this article a direct take on the problems within the Catholic Church. Bishop Morlino does not pull any punches.

[Tacenda]

16 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

When we step back from it and discuss it from another perspective....we talk about individual spirits coming into this world with their own individual strengths and weaknesses. It may possibly be that some of our weaknesses are implemented through DNA, but that again falls under the mortal probation we all must endure for the purpose of learning and demonstrating the desire of our hearts. 

On another note, I found this article a direct take on the problems within the Catholic Church. Bishop Morlino does not pull any punches.

I think that Bishop Morlino just wants to put the blame on gays, or in his words, homosexuals.

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-it-that-the-scandals-with-priests-involve-little-boys-and-almost-no-girls-Is-there-a-gay-culture-in-priesthood

[USU78]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think that Bishop Morlino just wants to put the blame on gays, or in his words, homosexuals.

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-it-that-the-scandals-with-priests-involve-little-boys-and-almost-no-girls-Is-there-a-gay-culture-in-priesthood

So we're supposed to ignore the Velvet Mafia's decades of diddling, which only those not paying a lick of attention are surprised by or fail to care about?

Banned for anti-gay slander