Another Possible Victim Of Joseph Bishop Speaks Out

[ttribe]

32 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I guess I was thinking of this in terms of Bishop's role at the MTC but that doesn't have to be the case. I was trying to think how a 19-20 year old woman could be abused (thinking sxually) and not know it. I don't know that bishop would have had time to groom at the MTC but the abuse could have happened earlier in her life, outside of the MTC environment.

In reading the OP I think I jumped to a lot of conclusions based on assumptions. Thanks.

I suspect, but don't know, that she was a VERY naive young woman who didn't understand, until much later, what had happened to her.

[USU78]

27 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I was sexually abused by a roommate who had been my mission companion. I was asleep when it happened and awoke in the middle of it, and I remember saying, "You can't do that," and going out to sleep on the couch in our apartment. I could have confronted him about it, could have reported him to BYU's standards office, could have told the bishop, could have done a number of things. But I said nothing. I was ashamed and humiliated, and part of me thought that perhaps I had done something to lead him to believe I wanted him to do that. I didn't tell anyone about it until I told my wife a few years later. Even that was humiliating. It was until 25 years later, when it had been on my mind a lot, that I contacted him and confronted him about it. A couple of years ago, someone here started a thread about sexual abuse and asked for people to tell their stories. I told mine and was immediately criticized for writing borderline pornography. That experience explained pretty well why I kept quiet for so long. 

Sharin' yer pain, brother.

[blueglass]

17 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I was ashamed and humiliated, and part of me thought that perhaps I had done something to lead him to believe I wanted him to do that. I didn't tell anyone about it until I told my wife a few years later. Even that was humiliating. 

how did you heal from this?  Did contacting the abuser 25 years later help close the wound finally?   

[jkwilliams]

Just now, blueglass said:

how did you heal from this?  Did contacting the abuser 25 years later help close the wound finally?   

It did help. He apologized, and I forgave him. There was something in knowing that it wasn't hidden anymore that helped me to heal.

[smac97]

55 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Thanks for that explanation. Can you give some examples of abuse a survivor may not realize is abuse until years later? Are we talking about unwanted advances like creepy backrubs and flirting?

I think there are a few potential factors in play:

1. Sometimes the absence of coercion or violence can create some confusion/ambiguity in the mind of the victim.  "If he didn't physically force himself on me, was it 'abuse,' or just a misunderstanding?"

2. The abuser "grooming" the victim can also cause quite a bit of confusion for the victim as to just "what happened."  Grooming allows the perp to have some measure of "plausible deniability."

3. The victim may also want to forget about the experience, such that he/she sublimates memories.  Doesn't think about it for years.  And then, for whatever reason, the memories resurface...

4. There also may be some problem with ambiguity in terminology.  "Abuse" covers a broad spectrum of behaviors, none of which is acceptable, but which nevertheless includes some behaviors which are more harmful/destructive than others.  For example, in the McKenna Denson case, we have competing claims about what happened to her in the basement room at the MTC.  Bishop denies that he did anything.  Ms. Denson asserts that a forced rape occurred.  Ron Leavitt (Ms. Denson's YSA bishop in 1987) told the news media that Ms. Denson reported to him that Bishop showed her and another sister missionary pornography.  Is it fair to say that, as between forcible rape and exposure to pornography, the former is more likely to cause substantial mental/emotional trauma?  I think so.  So if this Judith Homer person experienced something other than forcible rape, she may be less inclined to see herself as a victim of misconduct.  

5. Frequency/repetition of the abuse is also a factor.  Long-term abuse may cause more serious trauma than sporadic or isolated instances of abuse, such that victims of the latter (sporadic/isolated abuse) may not be inclined to think of the abuse they experienced as abuse.  "Yes, he beat me up, but only that one time..."

6. The relationship between the victim and the abuser is also a factor.

7. The quality of the victim's surrounding support system (family and friends), or lack thereof, is also a factor.

8. The presence of aggravating factors incident to abuse can also cause some confusion in the victim's thinking.  A victim can sometimes think of things like substance abuse ("He was drunk when he hit me") or heat-of-the-moment ("Yes, she threw a lamp at my head, but we had been arguing for an hour...") as mitigating factors, rather than aggravating ones.  This can in turn cause confusion and failure to address the abuse.

Thanks

-Smac

[USU78]

3 hours ago, juliann said:

Yes. I had a creepy relative who passed off his excessive touching and rubbing as "love." He only targeted the very young girls at family gatherings and the stupid adults didn't put a stop to it cause, well, he was just such a loving old goat. I was an adult before I realized that was molestation. Unfortunately, he was dead by then. As a young adult, we never labeled sexual harrassment as that. It was just what you had to put up with from men. I used to think there was something wrong with my face because I was told to smile so much. But that was considered acceptable behavior not harrassment. I finally went off on an old guy at the gym for telling me to smile every time I saw him. He was sooooo offended and now that we know what this behavior is,  for the first time I didn't care. 

My aunts used to refer to such creepers as "funny uncles," and the girl cousins all banded together to police the situation and minimize the creeper's activities. They never brought the adults into the conversation.

Edited July 27, 2018 by USU78

[Tacenda]

http://www.transfigurist.org/2017/09/a-call-to-repentance-lds-church.html

This article makes some good points on why women may not come forward sooner rather than later.

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by Tacenda

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I didn't realize anyone was automatically assuming that her accusations--vague as they are--are true. I don't understand people (usually men, for some reason) who think that the purpose of the #MeToo movement is simply to attack and shame men. Yes, a lot of women have come forward as "victims" (apparently this is a terrible word), and rather than acknowledge that this stuff happens way too often, some are suggesting that the volume of reports means a lot of women are lying. 

No, I don't think the purpose of the MeToo movement is to shame men - it is the actually make individuals responsible for their abusive actions against others. 

This is the type of attack that I am talking about - where did I say this was about shaming men. There is a vast difference between an abused person and some twit that makes an accusation. Now we have some individual making a claim - with nothing but her word - and it is news and lends credence to other accusations against an individual.  

I would prefer to just have an adult treatment of the topic - X abuses Y - Y reports to the police and their accusations are handled properly and as if they are true - the claim is investigated. If guilty they are punished in a court of law. If not, and a false accusation is found - then there must be some form of punishment for false accusations. If nothing is proved either way then there is no harm and no foul.  Finally, not a single one of these incidents is tried in the court of public opinion and the media. 

And, NO, again. The word victim is not a bad word. However, the rush to be viewed as a victim is. Do you have any research that verifies that victimhood is a positive emotional position? What is the value of being viewed as such?  Quit to silly arguments and start actually trying to discuss this in an adult manner rather than attempting to paint everyone that disagrees as if they are stupid, invalid, and not "woke". 

[Storm Rider]

3 hours ago, juliann said:

Oh for heaven's sake. All I can say to all the man tears is welcome to our world. When you have lived as a woman for decades and been subjected to harrassment, get back to me. 

Oh, please. Go somewhere else with that trite crap. Every feminist is so terrified to actually discuss the topic that is has become a joke. No complaints, no critics are tolerated. Everyone either bows down to the feminist cause or they are attacked by this type of silly, infantile accusations. Why is that?  

It is as if minds shut down and it is impossible to have a discussion. It does not happen a few times; it is constant and consistent. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Storm Rider said:

No, I don't think the purpose of the MeToo movement is to shame men - it is the actually make individuals responsible for their abusive actions against others. 

This is the type of attack that I am talking about - where did I say this was about shaming men. There is a vast difference between an abused person and some twit that makes an accusation. Now we have some individual making a claim - with nothing but her word - and it is news and lends credence to other accusations against an individual.  

I wasn't talking about you.

Quote

 

I would prefer to just have an adult treatment of the topic - X abuses Y - Y reports to the police and their accusations are handled properly and as if they are true - the claim is investigated. If guilty they are punished in a court of law. If not, and a false accusation is found - then there must be some form of punishment for false accusations. If nothing is proved either way then there is no harm and no foul.  Finally, not a single one of these incidents is tried in the court of public opinion and the media. 

And, NO, again. The word victim is not a bad word. However, the rush to be viewed as a victim is. Do you have any research that verifies that victimhood is a positive emotional position? What is the value of being viewed as such?  Quit to silly arguments and start actually trying to discuss this in an adult manner rather than attempting to paint everyone that disagrees as if they are stupid, invalid, and not "woke". 

 

Wow, you're making some huge assumptions about me. Either way, I don't think we disagree much. I'm not sure what the "emotional" position of a victim has to do with actually being a victim, which is "a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action." I've been the victim of a crime, and acknowledging that says nothing about any positive emotional position. I don't understand what you mean by "rush to be viewed as a victim." But then I'm not particularly smart or "woke." (Does it make me a bad person to say that I hate the term "woke," which is unbelievably arrogant and self-righteous?)

[ttribe]

37 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

No, I don't think the purpose of the MeToo movement is to shame men - it is the actually make individuals responsible for their abusive actions against others. 

This is the type of attack that I am talking about - where did I say this was about shaming men. There is a vast difference between an abused person and some twit that makes an accusation. Now we have some individual making a claim - with nothing but her word - and it is news and lends credence to other accusations against an individual.  

I would prefer to just have an adult treatment of the topic - X abuses Y - Y reports to the police and their accusations are handled properly and as if they are true - the claim is investigated. If guilty they are punished in a court of law. If not, and a false accusation is found - then there must be some form of punishment for false accusations. If nothing is proved either way then there is no harm and no foul.  Finally, not a single one of these incidents is tried in the court of public opinion and the media. 

And, NO, again. The word victim is not a bad word. However, the rush to be viewed as a victim is. Do you have any research that verifies that victimhood is a positive emotional position? What is the value of being viewed as such?  Quit to silly arguments and start actually trying to discuss this in an adult manner rather than attempting to paint everyone that disagrees as if they are stupid, invalid, and not "woke". 

Do I remember correctly that you once declared, on this very board, that you would advise any Male small business owner to never hire a woman because of the scary #MeToo movement? Yeah, your credibility on this topic is rapidly approaching zero.

Edited July 27, 2018 by ttribe

[california boy]

41 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

No, I don't think the purpose of the MeToo movement is to shame men - it is the actually make individuals responsible for their abusive actions against others. 

This is the type of attack that I am talking about - where did I say this was about shaming men. There is a vast difference between an abused person and some twit that makes an accusation. Now we have some individual making a claim - with nothing but her word - and it is news and lends credence to other accusations against an individual.  

I would prefer to just have an adult treatment of the topic - X abuses Y - Y reports to the police and their accusations are handled properly and as if they are true - the claim is investigated. If guilty they are punished in a court of law. If not, and a false accusation is found - then there must be some form of punishment for false accusations. If nothing is proved either way then there is no harm and no foul.  Finally, not a single one of these incidents is tried in the court of public opinion and the media. 

And, NO, again. The word victim is not a bad word. However, the rush to be viewed as a victim is. Do you have any research that verifies that victimhood is a positive emotional position? What is the value of being viewed as such?  Quit to silly arguments and start actually trying to discuss this in an adult manner rather than attempting to paint everyone that disagrees as if they are stupid, invalid, and not "woke". 

So if a woman is alone when she is abused by someone who she should be able to trust, just what do you think her course of action should be so that she is not just a twit making an accusation?

[juliann]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

Oh, please. Go somewhere else with that trite crap. Every feminist is so terrified to actually discuss the topic that is has become a joke. No complaints, no critics are tolerated. Everyone either bows down to the feminist cause or they are attacked by this type of silly, infantile accusations. Why is that?  

It is as if minds shut down and it is impossible to have a discussion. It does not happen a few times; it is constant and consistent. 

 🙄

[The Nehor]

On 7/27/2018 at 9:50 AM, Storm Rider said:

I guess I don't understand the value of being able to identify oneself as a victim. I don't think I have ever read an article that extolled the virtues of being a victim and its value in making an individual a better person. 

During this Me Too movement, I seem to recall an individual claiming to be a victim of sexual abuse because a man touched her back with one hand. If individuals are straining to be identified as a victim I question the value of being labeled a victim at all. I know individuals that I would call true victims and many of these other individuals are not even in the same universe.

It makes me question the validity of the entire movement. Is the objective to identify as many males as possible as abusers or what?  I have seen those who have been abused and the overwhelming pain they have dealt with - these other people are not it and should not be labeled as such. This language and the labels being used have become so distorted as to make me very wary of anyone that claims abuse; there is no commonality of the definitions. 

This kind of accusation - here is my name, but I don't want to say anything and don't want attention, but she is not wrong - I am also a victim also. Who is entitled to make such accusations? Who verifies that the individual is being truthful or something else?  Why should any other human automatically assume that any and all accusations - if made by a female - are true?  Why?  

This is just too frustrating. Any males that makes a complaint is almost immediately condemned as being an idiot and not understanding of the real problems of abuse. Logic just seems to be thrown out the window as a sacrifice for some other objective. I may be male and I may be an idiot - heck, I may not have a clue, but one thing I do know is when something stinks.

Do you have to comment like this every time the topic of abuse comes up?

What drives this impulse? Masochism? Or is that last paragraph where you try to make yourself a victim a way of ironically undermining your own complaints about people making themselves victims. If it is the last one I applaud the subtlety of your point. If you blithely accuse others of wanting to be victims while painting yourself as a victim you may want to polish up the old self-awareness a bit.

Edited July 28, 2018 by The Nehor

[Robert F. Smith]

14 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

It's pretty simple: when a child's abuser does something to the child repeatedly over several years, says it's normal and/or that the child is a willing participant, the child is more likely to accept the abuse as normal. And it doesn't help when family members discount or minimize the abuse when the child makes them aware of it. I've seen that over and over in my wife's extended family.

Yep.  Dr Larry Nassar caused many of those young girls he trained to believe that he knew best, etc.  Most did not understand what was really going on in the guise of preparing them for marriage.

[Tacenda]

Tonight I watched this dateline and looked up information about the case. I remember it being on the news. I had no idea the extent of it though and how evil this man was. He worked at the BYU Health Clinic for a time and had abused patients while there. And how many out there didn't dare come forward. I c/p'd part of the Deseret News article, if only someone would have come forward sooner, maybe his wife Michele would be alive today. And he would have been locked up long before.  

https://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/video/dateline-friday-preview-secrets-in-pleasant-grove

1282047555684https://www.deseretnews.com/article/700088382/Martin-MacNeill-Was-his-wife-Micheles-death-accidental-or-was-it-murder.html?pg=all A portion of the super long article below:

Sexual predator?

Since her mother's death, Rachel has received dozens of phone calls from people who say her father hurt them. Many women have called to say Martin either propositioned them, had sexual relations with them or raped them.

Some have cried on the phone to her for hours.

"It's horrifying to hear their stories and how their life has been affected by my dad," Rachel said. "He really knew who he could take advantage of. I thought I had an idea of who my father was, but I had no idea. The father that I knew was a fictional character. It was an act the whole time."

One of the women from their LDS ward told Rachel she was propositioned by Martin over the Internet. Another man said he witnessed Martin raping someone years ago when Rachel was still a toddler.

Rachel wishes these people would had come forward earlier, because she believes her mother would have left him. "To think if my mom would've known, her life would've been saved."

Karen Wright, now 56, was the first woman to call Rachel. She claims Martin took advantage of her 14 years ago when she was his patient at the BYU Health Center.

Wright had eight children and told Martin she was recently divorced and an "emotional basket case." She remembers Martin telling her he was not only a doctor but a lawyer and that he drove a Jaguar. He said he didn't have a good sexual relationship with his wife and that she was beautiful.

"He manipulated me," Wright told the Deseret News, "but he managed to do it in a seductive way. I didn't tell anyone because I thought it was my fault. I think he knew I wouldn't report it. That's why he made me think I was so attractive."

Wright said Martin also had sexual relations with her a second time in his office shortly thereafter. She said these assaults had a profound effect on her life. She was wracked with guilt until she found Rachel's contact information on the Internet and learned more about Martin and his history with other women.

But the alleged abuse wasn't just outside the family. Martin also has a case pending in court for sexual abuse of Alexis.

"Alexis stated there had been two incidents where she had been fondled by her father" within three months of her mother's passing, a police report states.

Martin admitted in a recorded phone call with Alexis that he inappropriately touched her while she was sleeping because he thought Alexis was his wife.

"Mr. MacNeill was reported to have told his daughters that even though his wife is dead, he is still a sexual person and has desires that need to be met," according to Pleasant Grove police records.

[ALarson]

23 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I guess we can't know until this person shares the specifics. I can certainly understand that a sister missionary might feel responsible if someone in a position of authority like Bishop got her to do morally questionable things. If you think you are at least partly responsible for something, you are less likely to recognize it as abuse.

This is what I'm thinking too.   She stated that she has shared specifics with Denson and her attorney ("I have shared my story with both McKenna and her lawyer Craig."), but it sounds like she does not want them made public.  I certainly can understand that.  Denson was put a thorough background investigation after going public with details of her abuse and filing a lawsuit.  Then her background and personal information was publicized (including the name of her daughter that she'd give up for adoption).  Not many would welcome that type of scrutiny and I think that's the type of "attention" this woman does not want.

I think this shouldn't really surprise anyone (that another woman has come forward).  We have been told there were other victims and even Bishop himself has alluded to other women who he abused (if I'm remember correctly).

It will be interesting to see if more potential victims step forward and speak out. 

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by ALarson

[Jeanne]

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Tonight I watched this dateline and looked up information about the case. I remember it being on the news. I had no idea the extent of it though and how evil this man was. He worked at the BYU Health Clinic for a time and had abused patients while there. And how many out there didn't dare come forward. I c/p'd part of the Deseret News article, if only someone would have come forward sooner, maybe his wife Michele would be alive today. And he would have been locked up long before.  

https://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/video/dateline-friday-preview-secrets-in-pleasant-grove

1282047555684https://www.deseretnews.com/article/700088382/Martin-MacNeill-Was-his-wife-Micheles-death-accidental-or-was-it-murder.html?pg=all A portion of the super long article below:

Sexual predator?

Since her mother's death, Rachel has received dozens of phone calls from people who say her father hurt them. Many women have called to say Martin either propositioned them, had sexual relations with them or raped them.

Some have cried on the phone to her for hours.

"It's horrifying to hear their stories and how their life has been affected by my dad," Rachel said. "He really knew who he could take advantage of. I thought I had an idea of who my father was, but I had no idea. The father that I knew was a fictional character. It was an act the whole time."

One of the women from their LDS ward told Rachel she was propositioned by Martin over the Internet. Another man said he witnessed Martin raping someone years ago when Rachel was still a toddler.

Rachel wishes these people would had come forward earlier, because she believes her mother would have left him. "To think if my mom would've known, her life would've been saved."

Karen Wright, now 56, was the first woman to call Rachel. She claims Martin took advantage of her 14 years ago when she was his patient at the BYU Health Center.

Wright had eight children and told Martin she was recently divorced and an "emotional basket case." She remembers Martin telling her he was not only a doctor but a lawyer and that he drove a Jaguar. He said he didn't have a good sexual relationship with his wife and that she was beautiful.

"He manipulated me," Wright told the Deseret News, "but he managed to do it in a seductive way. I didn't tell anyone because I thought it was my fault. I think he knew I wouldn't report it. That's why he made me think I was so attractive."

Wright said Martin also had sexual relations with her a second time in his office shortly thereafter. She said these assaults had a profound effect on her life. She was wracked with guilt until she found Rachel's contact information on the Internet and learned more about Martin and his history with other women.

But the alleged abuse wasn't just outside the family. Martin also has a case pending in court for sexual abuse of Alexis.

"Alexis stated there had been two incidents where she had been fondled by her father" within three months of her mother's passing, a police report states.

Martin admitted in a recorded phone call with Alexis that he inappropriately touched her while she was sleeping because he thought Alexis was his wife.

"Mr. MacNeill was reported to have told his daughters that even though his wife is dead, he is still a sexual person and has desires that need to be met," according to Pleasant Grove police records.

I saw this the first time...I believe this was a repeat..and it gave me the heebie jeebies. 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I saw this the first time...I believe this was a repeat..and it gave me the heebie jeebies. 

I can't tell you how it pains me that he was hired on at BYU and was a bishop and and and.... just so mad about it I guess.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, ALarson said:

 even Bishop himself has alluded to other women who he abused (if I'm remember correctly).

 

Not saying there weren't other victims as I think there were, but as far as him alluding to any, it was only in a vague way where he was simply agreeing with everything Denson said until she said "rape".

Denson said she was not the woman he asked to expose herself, so as far as what Bishop stated there are two known victims, Denson who both confirmed was told inappropriate stories in a private one on one setting and the second victim that Bishop probably confused Denson with where he asked her to expose herself (this would have been the missionary who was living in his home unless Denson is confused as well, so it sounds like she couldn't avoid him afterwards as Denson claims to have, very disturbing when I think about it).

When he gave specifics when she asked for details, it was always about women who came on to him and those he was with except in the case of the one sister missionary who he took into his home.  There he described in the transcript that he took her into his home because she was suicidal and the only thing that happened was a "frisky backrub".

[provoman]

Have not read the whole thread, but I know tbe issue of "why didnt she say something earlier".....

Well for past 20 minutes, I have listened to a young female explain the many reasons why she is not going to police. So next time anyone feels the need to monday night quarterback sexual assault victims not reporting.....just know that the decision is very much complicated, and it truely is something you cant understand until you live it.

Edited July 29, 2018 by provoman

[Calm]

2 hours ago, provoman said:

Have not read the whole thread, but I know tbe issue of "why didnt she say something earlier".....

Well for past 20 minutes, I have listened to a young female explain the many reasons why she is not going to police. So next time anyone feels the need to monday night quarterback sexual assault victims not reporting.....just know that the decision is very much complicated, and it truely is something you cant understand until you live it.

I think I would have been overwhelmed trying to consider saying something when there was so much going on in March till last month.  Been quieter since then.  Now it is quieter, probably doesn't feel so overwhelming to step out into it.