Another Possible Victim Of Joseph Bishop Speaks Out

[ALarson]

I haven't seen this posted here yet, so I thought I would for discussion.  I read about it over on the New Order Mormon site and hope it's ok to post what this woman wrote.  She posted this on Mckenna Denson's Facebook page:

Quote

Judith Baines Homer‎ to McKenna Denson

Yesterday at 9:01 AM · 

...

I'm no where near as brave as McKenna. She is far above and beyond me when it comes to fighting her fight. I don't want the world to hound me, for the church to dig up everything about me or for the courts to blame, shame or tell me I'm wrong. But I do want MeKenna to know she is not wrong, not alone and not to blame. 

FOR I TOO AM A VICTIM OF JOSEPH BISHOP.

Didn't realize it for many years, and i feel I have no case against him at this stage, it would not hold in court.

I have shared my story with both McKenna and her lawyer Craig. I know personally of one other victim besides myself and McKenna, she has not come forward to share her story other than with the above mentioned. She I am sure has her reasons and we will respect her and keep her story private unless she herself , shares it herself to the public. 

McKenna is not alone in being a victim of Joseph Bishop. She has my full support in her case and i sincerely hope she wins hands down. I am not willing to share my story in public for many reasons, but the right people do know of it. I just wanted to make this statement for those who doubt McKenna's story and to show that McKenna is not alone in this.. This man is a sexual pervert and predator and should of been stopped many many years ago.

If true, this isn't really too surprising, IMO.  I think we knew there were other victims out there, but just didn't know if any would come forward and speak out.  

I doubt this will affect Denson's case, but she did at least give Denson's attorneys more details and then also states that she personally knows of "one other victim".

Edited July 27, 2018 by ALarson

[HappyJackWagon]

At the risk of being insensitive, how was she a victim yet didn't know it for years? With absolutely zero detail about what was done to her or what being a victim means to her, I don't know that there's much to respond to.

This is like one of those 'vaguebook" posts where someone say "I can't tell you what happened but pray for me". Those kinds of posts usually strike me as needy attention getting.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

At the risk of being insensitive, how was she a victim yet didn't know it for years? With absolutely zero detail about what was done to her or what being a victim means to her, I don't know that there's much to respond to.

This is like one of those 'vaguebook" posts where someone say "I can't tell you what happened but pray for me". Those kinds of posts usually strike me as needy attention getting.

I agree that what she says is too vague to sort out, but I don't know that it's necessarily needy attention getting. Sounds like she doesn't want all the attention that would go along with a public disclosure, but now that she's publicized her name, I think her privacy is over. 

[juliann]

18 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I haven't seen this posted here yet, so I thought I would for discussion.  I read about it over on the New Order Mormon site and hope it's ok to post what this woman wrote.  She posted this on Mckenna Denson's Facebook page:

If true, this isn't really too surprising, IMO.  I think we knew there were other victims out there, but just didn't know if any would come forward and speak out.  

I doubt this will affect Denson's case, but she did at least give Denson's attorneys more details and then also states that she personally knows of "one other victim".

I wonder why she gave her name while saying she didn't want the attention. I hope more women will speak out, there has to be more. That she didn't realize what had happened until later rings true to me (although that likely means wasn't an all out assault.)  I don't think it is uncommon for women to not realize that all too common behavior that was merely clucked about should be labeled sexual abuse. Especially when the women were commonly blamed for bringing it upon themselves or counseled to just stay away from the predator even though they were in daily contact. 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

I wonder why she gave her name while saying she didn't want the attention. I hope more women will speak out, there has to be more. That she didn't realize what had happened until later rings true to me (although that likely means wasn't an all out assault.)  I don't think it is uncommon for women to not realize that all too common behavior that was merely clucked about should be labeled sexual abuse. Especially when the women were commonly blamed for bringing it upon themselves or counseled to just stay away from the predator even though they were in daily contact. 

Agreed. I've mentioned that my wife's extended family has a long history of sexual abuse, and a common theme is that many of the victims did not understand that they had been abused until much later for the reasons you mention. 

[Thinking]

8 minutes ago, juliann said:

That she didn't realize what had happened until later rings true to me (although that likely means wasn't an all out assault.)  I don't think it is uncommon for women to not realize that all too common behavior that was merely clucked about should be labeled sexual abuse. Especially when the women were commonly blamed for bringing it upon themselves or counseled to just stay away from the predator even though they were in daily contact. 

Grooming comes to mind.

[HappyJackWagon]

8 minutes ago, juliann said:

I wonder why she gave her name while saying she didn't want the attention. I hope more women will speak out, there has to be more. That she didn't realize what had happened until later rings true to me (although that likely means wasn't an all out assault.)  I don't think it is uncommon for women to not realize that all too common behavior that was merely clucked about should be labeled sexual abuse. Especially when the women were commonly blamed for bringing it upon themselves or counseled to just stay away from the predator even though they were in daily contact. 

Thanks for that explanation. Can you give some examples of abuse a survivor may not realize is abuse until years later? Are we talking about unwanted advances like creepy backrubs and flirting?

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Agreed. I've mentioned that my wife's extended family has a long history of sexual abuse, and a common theme is that many of the victims did not understand that they had been abused until much later for the reasons you mention. 

I am not getting this at all.

Is there a way to hint around what you are talking about?

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, Thinking said:

Grooming comes to mind.

I am dense I guess

Like brushing hair ???

[jkwilliams]

Just now, mfbukowski said:

I am not getting this at all.

Is there a way to hint around what you are talking about?

It's pretty simple: when a child's abuser does something to the child repeatedly over several years, says it's normal and/or that the child is a willing participant, the child is more likely to accept the abuse as normal. And it doesn't help when family members discount or minimize the abuse when the child makes them aware of it. I've seen that over and over in my wife's extended family.

[Thinking]

29 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

At the risk of being insensitive, how was she a victim yet didn't know it for years?

If he groomed her to the point of her being a willing participant, she may not have realized at her young age that being in a position of power, Bishop was abusing her.

[Thinking]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I am dense I guess

Like brushing hair ???

Grooming is the predatory act of maneuvering another individual into a position that makes them more isolated, dependent, likely to trust, and more vulnerable to abusive behavior.

[ALarson]

37 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I agree that what she says is too vague to sort out, but I don't know that it's necessarily needy attention getting. Sounds like she doesn't want all the attention that would go along with a public disclosure, but now that she's publicized her name, I think her privacy is over. 

I agree.  I read it as she didn't want the attention that bringing a lawsuit against Bishop (or the church) would bring to her.  But then, she gives her name.  Maybe she felt she needed to do at least that much in order to step forward and support Denson rather than just being some anonymous source.  

Edited July 27, 2018 by ALarson

[Storm Rider]

I guess I don't understand the value of being able to identify oneself as a victim. I don't think I have ever read an article that extolled the virtues of being a victim and its value in making an individual a better person. 

During this Me Too movement, I seem to recall an individual claiming to be a victim of sexual abuse because a man touched her back with one hand. If individuals are straining to be identified as a victim I question the value of being labeled a victim at all. I know individuals that I would call true victims and many of these other individuals are not even in the same universe.

It makes me question the validity of the entire movement. Is the objective to identify as many males as possible as abusers or what?  I have seen those who have been abused and the overwhelming pain they have dealt with - these other people are not it and should not be labeled as such. This language and the labels being used have become so distorted as to make me very wary of anyone that claims abuse; there is no commonality of the definitions. 

This kind of accusation - here is my name, but I don't want to say anything and don't want attention, but she is not wrong - I am also a victim also. Who is entitled to make such accusations? Who verifies that the individual is being truthful or something else?  Why should any other human automatically assume that any and all accusations - if made by a female - are true?  Why?  

This is just too frustrating. Any males that makes a complaint is almost immediately condemned as being an idiot and not understanding of the real problems of abuse. Logic just seems to be thrown out the window as a sacrifice for some other objective. I may be male and I may be an idiot - heck, I may not have a clue, but one thing I do know is when something stinks.

[juliann]

7 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Thanks for that explanation. Can you give some examples of abuse a survivor may not realize is abuse until years later? Are we talking about unwanted advances like creepy backrubs and flirting?

Yes. I had a creepy relative who passed off his excessive touching and rubbing as "love." He only targeted the very young girls at family gatherings and the stupid adults didn't put a stop to it cause, well, he was just such a loving old goat. I was an adult before I realized that was molestation. Unfortunately, he was dead by then. As a young adult, we never labeled sexual harrassment as that. It was just what you had to put up with from men. I used to think there was something wrong with my face because I was told to smile so much. But that was considered acceptable behavior not harrassment. I finally went off on an old guy at the gym for telling me to smile every time I saw him. He was sooooo offended and now that we know what this behavior is,  for the first time I didn't care. 

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I guess I don't understand the value of being able to identify oneself as a victim. I don't think I have ever read an article that extolled the virtues of being a victim and its value in making an individual a better person. 

During this Me Too movement, I seem to recall an individual claiming to be a victim of sexual abuse because a man touched her back with one hand. If individuals are straining to be identified as a victim I question the value of being labeled a victim at all. I know individuals that I would call true victims and many of these other individuals are not even in the same universe.

It makes me question the validity of the entire movement. Is the objective to identify as many males as possible as abusers or what?  I have seen those who have been abused and the overwhelming pain they have dealt with - these other people are not it and should not be labeled as such. This language and the labels being used have become so distorted as to make me very wary of anyone that claims abuse; there is no commonality of the definitions. 

This kind of accusation - here is my name, but I don't want to say anything and don't want attention, but she is not wrong - I am also a victim also. Who is entitled to make such accusations? Who verifies that the individual is being truthful or something else?  Why should any other human automatically assume that any and all accusations - if made by a female - are true?  Why?  

This is just too frustrating. Any males that makes a complaint is almost immediately condemned as being an idiot and not understanding of the real problems of abuse. Logic just seems to be thrown out the window as a sacrifice for some other objective. I may be male and I may be an idiot - heck, I may not have a clue, but one thing I do know is when something stinks.

Oh for heaven's sake. All I can say to all the man tears is welcome to our world. When you have lived as a woman for decades and been subjected to harrassment, get back to me. 

[Thinking]

9 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I agree.  I read it as she didn't want the attention that bringing a lawsuit against Bishop (or the church) would bring to her.  But then, she gives her name.  Maybe she felt she needed to do at least that much in order to step forward and support Denson rather than just being some anonymous source.  

Even if she doesn't give details, identifying herself creates a lot more credibility than if she had posted anonymously.

[JulieM]

1 minute ago, Thinking said:

Even if she doesn't give details, identifying herself creates a lot more credibility than if she had posted anonymously.

Exactly.  It sounds like she wanted to be brave enough to do that in support of Mckenna.

I totally understand that she doesn’t want the scrutiny and attention that Mckenna has gotten by bringing this lawsuit against the church.  Her past was combed through and publicized and they even revealed details about her adoptive daughter.  I think that’s the attention she is referring to that she wants to avoid.

[jkwilliams]

12 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I guess I don't understand the value of being able to identify oneself as a victim. I don't think I have ever read an article that extolled the virtues of being a victim and its value in making an individual a better person. 

During this Me Too movement, I seem to recall an individual claiming to be a victim of sexual abuse because a man touched her back with one hand. If individuals are straining to be identified as a victim I question the value of being labeled a victim at all. I know individuals that I would call true victims and many of these other individuals are not even in the same universe.

It makes me question the validity of the entire movement. Is the objective to identify as many males as possible as abusers or what?  I have seen those who have been abused and the overwhelming pain they have dealt with - these other people are not it and should not be labeled as such. This language and the labels being used have become so distorted as to make me very wary of anyone that claims abuse; there is no commonality of the definitions. 

This kind of accusation - here is my name, but I don't want to say anything and don't want attention, but she is not wrong - I am also a victim also. Who is entitled to make such accusations? Who verifies that the individual is being truthful or something else?  Why should any other human automatically assume that any and all accusations - if made by a female - are true?  Why?  

This is just too frustrating. Any males that makes a complaint is almost immediately condemned as being an idiot and not understanding of the real problems of abuse. Logic just seems to be thrown out the window as a sacrifice for some other objective. I may be male and I may be an idiot - heck, I may not have a clue, but one thing I do know is when something stinks.

I didn't realize anyone was automatically assuming that her accusations--vague as they are--are true. I don't understand people (usually men, for some reason) who think that the purpose of the #MeToo movement is simply to attack and shame men. Yes, a lot of women have come forward as "victims" (apparently this is a terrible word), and rather than acknowledge that this stuff happens way too often, some are suggesting that the volume of reports means a lot of women are lying. 

[HappyJackWagon]

24 minutes ago, Thinking said:

If he groomed her to the point of her being a willing participant, she may not have realized at her young age that being in a position of power, Bishop was abusing her.

I guess I was thinking of this in terms of Bishop's role at the MTC but that doesn't have to be the case. I was trying to think how a 19-20 year old woman could be abused (thinking sxually) and not know it. I don't know that bishop would have had time to groom at the MTC but the abuse could have happened earlier in her life, outside of the MTC environment.

In reading the OP I think I jumped to a lot of conclusions based on assumptions. Thanks.

[blueglass]

One question I have - perhaps someone on this board who has been a victim of sexual assault can explain the shaming and why secrets are kept for so long?  When I read that George HW Bush had assaulted many women with sexually perverted jokes and groping during photographs for many years I was confused as to the motivations for why women did not come forward, push him out of his wheel-chair, swat him with a hand bag, or otherwise respond immediately to his hand dropping, grabbing, pinching.  With Taylor swift the story was similar, where in that moment women feel frozen, and I read a BYU Studies article many years ago on sexual assault that spoke about this "out of body" or "freeze-up" reaction and then silence and hidden embarrassment.  It makes me feel horrible inside that I would laugh out loud when watching Miss Congeniality (Sandra Bullock)  as a girl in the playground beating the tar out of kids for bullying others, and then I wrongly assume that this is the reaction all women will have?   I am absolutely naive on this issue, and I feel my humanity is weakened as a result - hence when I read a story of sexual assault my first instinct is how could this happen without immediate repercussions and why the silence for so many years, when my first reaction should be empathy, I'm sorry, vulnerability, sitting in the rain with the person, validating concern, believing the person.  

Edited July 27, 2018 by blueglass

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I guess I was thinking of this in terms of Bishop's role at the MTC but that doesn't have to be the case. I was trying to think how a 19-20 year old woman could be abused (thinking sxually) and not know it. I don't know that bishop would have had time to groom at the MTC but the abuse could have happened earlier in her life, outside of the MTC environment.

In reading the OP I think I jumped to a lot of conclusions based on assumptions. Thanks.

I guess we can't know until this person shares the specifics. I can certainly understand that a sister missionary might feel responsible if someone in a position of authority like Bishop got her to do morally questionable things. If you think you are at least partly responsible for something, you are less likely to recognize it as abuse.

[jkwilliams]

35 minutes ago, blueglass said:

One question I have - perhaps someone on this board who has been a victim of sexual assault can explain the shaming and why secrets are kept for so long?  When I read that George HW Bush had assaulted many women with sexually perverted jokes and groping during photographs for many years I was confused as to the motivations for why women did not come forward, push him out of his wheel-chair, swat him with a hand bag, or otherwise respond immediately to his hand dropping, grabbing, pinching.  With Taylor swift the story was similar, where in that moment women feel frozen, and I read a BYU Studies article many years ago on sexual assault that spoke about this "frozen" or "freeze-up" reaction and then silence and hidden embarrassment.  It makes me feel horrible inside that I would laugh out loud when watching Miss Congeniality (Sandra Bullock)  as a girl in the playground beating the tar out of kids for bullying others, and then I wrongly assume that this is the reaction all women will have?   I am absolutely naive on this issue, and I feel my humanity is weakened as a result - hence when I read a story of sexual assault my first instinct is how could this happen without immediate repercussions and why the silence for so many years, when my first reaction should be empathy, I'm sorry, vulnerability, sitting in the rain with the person, validating concern, believing the person.  

I was sexually abused by a roommate who had been my mission companion. I was asleep when it happened and awoke in the middle of it, and I remember saying, "You can't do that," and going out to sleep on the couch in our apartment. I could have confronted him about it, could have reported him to BYU's standards office, could have told the bishop, could have done a number of things. But I said nothing. I was ashamed and humiliated, and part of me thought that perhaps I had done something to lead him to believe I wanted him to do that. I didn't tell anyone about it until I told my wife a few years later. Even that was humiliating. It wasn't until 25 years later, when it had been on my mind a lot, that I contacted him and confronted him about it. A couple of years ago, someone here started a thread about sexual abuse and asked for people to tell their stories. I told mine and was immediately criticized for writing borderline pornography. That experience explained pretty well why I kept quiet for so long. 

Edited July 27, 2018 by jkwilliams

[Calm]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I guess I was thinking of this in terms of Bishop's role at the MTC but that doesn't have to be the case. I was trying to think how a 19-20 year old woman could be abused (thinking sxually) and not know it. I don't know that bishop would have had time to groom at the MTC but the abuse could have happened earlier in her life, outside of the MTC environment.

In reading the OP I think I jumped to a lot of conclusions based on assumptions. Thanks.

Denson reported and Bishop backed up by recollecting some stuff on his own (so more credible than just the stuff he agreed vaguely) that he shared inappropriate sexual stories, including about his wife, in personal "counseling sessions" that started with four sisters, than two, then completely private.  They pretty much all amount to women exposing themselves to him or coming on to him.  If he was counseling women who had been abused and even raped, seems like he would have to work at it to justify sharing that kind of stuff (it is okay if you feel sexual urges towards men, see how many women do for me?...can't really think of anything that makes sense, but it would only need to have enough so if called on it, he could say he was trying to help, maybe help them open up by sharing his own stories of being 'abused' or just trying to help them feel comfortable about sex in general?)  He might even have gotten into the "my wife doesn't love me" routine...but that might have been just with Denson in trying to justify his behaviour and not part of the original discussion.

That might be a form of abuse the individual was not aware of until later when she realized it wasn't about trying to help her.

Perhaps she was one of the four or there were more such sessions with other sisters until they got a professional counselor.

Or it might be something different from a different time period.  Iirc, he stated his second wife told him he flirted a lot.  He was dismissive about it, he would have also been at least in his 70s I believe. It was charisma in his view, iirc (Denson might have gone that route earlier...been a month or so since I last reviewed it, starts to blur). Denson claimed he kept reaching out and touching her, but Bishop said he didn't register doing it.  I don't trust Denson on her own at this point, but flirting and excessive touching at age 70 seems like there could have been a long history of abusive behaviour that straddled the line as much as possible so he could claim it was all innocent affection.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Calm

[juliann]

6 minutes ago, blueglass said:

One question I have - perhaps someone on this board who has been a victim of sexual assault can explain the shaming and why secrets are kept for so long?  When I read that George HW Bush had assaulted many women with sexually perverted jokes and groping during photographs for many years I was confused as to the motivations for why women did not come forward, push him out of his wheel-chair, swat him with a hand bag, or otherwise respond immediately to his hand dropping, grabbing, pinching.  With Taylor swift the story was similar, where in that moment women feel frozen, and I read a BYU Studies article many years ago on sexual assault that spoke about this "out of body" or "freeze-up" reaction and then silence and hidden embarrassment.  It makes me feel horrible inside that I would laugh out loud when watching Miss Congeniality (Sandra Bullock)  as a girl in the playground beating the tar out of kids for bullying others, and then I wrongly assume that this is the reaction all women will have?   I am absolutely naive on this issue, and I feel my humanity is weakened as a result - hence when I read a story of sexual assault my first instinct is how could this happen without immediate repercussions and why the silence for so many years, when my first reaction should be empathy, I'm sorry, vulnerability, sitting in the rain with the person, validating concern, believing the person.  

I don't think it is much different than any other unexpected situation that happens quickly, other than the horror factor is elevated. Your mind just starts racing trying to make sense of what is happening. The first instinct is to find an acceptable reason for behavior that is so out of bounds it can't be categorized with other behaviors your brain is used to. So it can't be identified and nothing comes to mind in how to deal with it. Freeze. 

Biggest problem has been that the behavior has never been isolated and labeled, let alone condemned. When I graduated from high school, it was easy to find summer work. So the next two summers I went to San Francisco and D.C. In both places I was warned about the office lowlife. And sure enough, I got candy, propositions, staring, etc. There was no intimation that this was any kind of problem with employing these creeps. It was our problem to avoid them. 

When you are told you entire life that men will be men, boys will make advances but you have to stop them, you are constantly in situations where onlookers say or do nothing and women who fight back are punished, it never occurs to you that this is a problem. Seems so weird now. But back then, girls were counseled in school to take shorthand and typing or we would never get jobs. There were only a few common jobs for women outside of that, nurse, teacher stuff. It was just life. Then the women's movement started and we begin to wake up....but the sexism even then is revolting now.