Woman Denied Temple Recommend for ...

[juliann]

11 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Trying to picture how on earth that'd work in the typical foyer with late arrivals and their children running about. (Having been far too often in that foyer myself)

That avoids the central issue of course that from the Exponent blog this is causing conflict in the ward and clearly the people in question don't care about that. I think there are lots of middle grounds but from what Juliann has related, it sounds like the woman in question is intentionally trying to make a scene for political reasons. At first I just assumed this was cultural misunderstandings and felt bad. But it sounds like the author of that blog post knows the person and it's far more political in nature than I'd have guessed.

There is a lot of middle ground of course. Just do your best to not show the breast but have it not be a big deal if it shows. From everything I can tell the people in question are not interested in compromise that everyone can agree upon.

Agreed. Even if unfair, we happen to be in a culture where open displays of certain body parts isn't considered socially respectable. And sometimes, it just isn't pretty to see and people react to that. As long as we live in this society, it is stupid to ignore the reality and insist on provoking rather than educating.

I initially jumped on the bandwagon with I became suspicious of the inconsistencies and the stunning lack of curiosity at why so many (which they do acknowledge) were complaining over such an ordinary act. They had to move to censorship to control that urge of discovery as you can see in the smackdown of comments on that blog. I am usually fully on board with criticisms of the church when it comes to the treatment of women. But not when it stops making sense and there is such an effort to shut down opposition to the narrative. 

I think we have a responsibility in this instance to acknowledge that so many ward members were troubled and then ask why that may be rather than calling all of the opposition "hearsay" when probably most of the original story is hearsay as well.  They jumped on this so fast and with no vetting that they can't even clean up the inconsistencies. A big part of the narrative is that members complained. They need that to be lots of members for impact. But then they are left with explaining why those numbers are so large. The standby accusation of a ward populated with nothing but lusting men and female tools of the patriarchy isn't convincing. Those ward members have a story and it should be heard. 

[juliann]

13 minutes ago, rongo said:

Going forward, the next time that a "leader atrocity tale" flash-in-the-pan firestorm erupts on social media (including message boards), it would be well to ask how much conflict is being caused in the wards. This is very similar to that lady who taped her stake president (the one disrupting sacrament meeting and sowing discord and trying to rile people up against others). I think that leaders have the mandate and authority to get people who are creating public conflict and won't stop to . . . stop doing it. 

Not if they are using the temple to do it. And frankly, there are too many leaders who fall back on that, especially with women. So bring on those flash in the pans until this stops. Just get the facts straight.

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by juliann

[Tacenda]

51 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Sorry, if I added to this....but it is something that if we had wives who nursed, we do know a little bit about (not the same, I get that....).  I know my wife always tried to be discrete and it wasn't easy at times, so I do understand   This sister for sure could have nursed without completely exposing herself from the waist up.  I do think this story has gotten stranger from it just being a woman nursing her baby in the foyer (thanks again for adding some details and background that were not given originally).  But, if she started all of this on purpose, that's not right and she put the leaders in a very, very tough position.

Totally agree, I too wonder if she did this to hurt the church. And if she did expose herself to the extent people are mentioning. I guess I was thinking she pulled her shirt up to one side and fed her child. 

I remember one time when at an outdoor family reunion, being embarrassed to nurse my baby in front of everyone and going to my car to do that, thus taking me away from all the happenings and then my California aunt walked over and asked me if I was feeding my baby with the white connector or something like that and I was so embarrassed. But this nervousness is probably what caused me to not be able to nurse very well and I gave up and fed the majority of my children formula.

Also, remember a story my husband told me...while on his mission a little four year climbed up on a mother's lap while they were teaching her, and started nursing in front of them, which was fine, my husband just had not seen that old of a child nursing. And back in the 80's my sis in laws would always go to a back bedroom to nurse at family parties. I guess that might be why we're all just a little shocked to see a woman nursing full frontal in public. 

But read recently on another board of LDS members in another country exposing their breasts during Sacrament meeting and nursing and even nursing other women's children. I guess it's just not the norm around here and the more we accept it maybe we'll all adjust. 

 

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

I did say NEAR topless.....but that does give a wrong impression. I have edited the original comment to explain exposing both breasts. 

My wife had twins and often had to nurse both at the same time: one on each breast, so she did have to expose both breasts in that situation. But she did not do it in full view of everyone.
She used the mother's lounge which was wired for the sound. 

[juliann]

4 minutes ago, JAHS said:

My wife had twins and often had to nurse both at the same time: one on each breast, so she did have to expose both breasts in that situation. But she did not do it in full view of everyone.
She used the mother's lounge which was wired for the sound. 

They wouldn't be exposed if there was a baby on both of them. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

OK, before this gets overstated, I should modify that to she was exposing both breasts.

This thread is flying fast, so forgive me.  Who is "she", and what is your source?

Thanks

[USU78]

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

So it's policy of the church, not common law privilege that's being applied here. 

Defensive law, more like.

[Jeanne]

I lived on a farm...if you haven't seen it..you don't what it is..so nurse..it is just life.😊

[clarkgoble]

49 minutes ago, juliann said:

I initially jumped on the bandwagon with I became suspicious of the inconsistencies and the stunning lack of curiosity at why so many (which they do acknowledge) were complaining over such an ordinary act. They had to move to censorship to control that urge of discovery as you can see in the smackdown of comments on that blog. I am usually fully on board with criticisms of the church when it comes to the treatment of women. But not when it stops making sense and there is such an effort to shut down opposition to the narrative. 

The news stories were also shockingly uncurious. It wouldn't be terribly hard to ask a few neighbors what was going on. (It's not hard to find ward boundaries) There still a ton of things that don't make sense to me that make me think much more was going on.

Again I wish there were far more public information on this.

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I keep flashing to the fact it is an 18 month old nursing.  Nothing got said for 18 months apparently....so what changed to trigger it now?

An 18 month old likely has no baby blanket to easily use as a shield.  More likely to make their own wants felt including being able to see what is going on while grabbing a snack.  May stop sit up, look around and the latch on again.  Lots of babies lose interest in nursing by 12 months when solid foods are a main part of diet.  Kids can drink from a cup by a year easily.

Possibly people figuring the mom does not have to be treated as a 24/7 vending machine by her toddler, one can schedule feedings; kids can often lose interest in nursing when they get other foods...maybe the toddler itself is making it clear that it is not interested even when Mom is all gung ho still.  It may be her last baby and she doesn't want to give it up.

Anyway, it seems likely it is not just about a simple wee baby getting hungry and mom snuggling it in tight so nothing can be seen without some effort between the baby's head and mom's arm and clothing.

http://theattachedfamily.com/membersonly/?p=2235

It's possible, although it's a bit odd as I said to be nursing still at 18 mo. Clearly some do it, but if it's causing these logistical problems there are some alternatives. For that matter if the problem is, as some said, the smell in the nursing room, just assign some young women to change the garbage more regularly during church. There are lots of alternatives typically if people would just brainstorm.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Any blanket can be a nursing blanket.

Well then, the ones I’ve seen used for nursing have not been big and heavy. 

[juliann]

14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Well then, the ones I’ve seen used for nursing have not been big and heavy. 

Yeah, but a big and heavy one is necessary when required to cover the head of a gawker. 😉 

[juliann]

24 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

 

It's possible, although it's a bit odd as I said to be nursing still at 18 mo. Clearly some do it, but if it's causing these logistical problems there are some alternatives. For that matter if the problem is, as some said, the smell in the nursing room, just assign some young women to change the garbage more regularly during church. There are lots of alternatives typically if people would just brainstorm.

Um, why not YM? They aren't going in during church. 

Lot's of people nurse until the kid is over 2 yrs or more. The thing is though, you can tell older kids to wait. You don't have to do it on demand anymore. So the age doesn't exactly work in her favor, either. 

[strappinglad]

11 minutes ago, juliann said:

Um, why not YM? They aren't going in during church. 

This is just asking for trouble. Apparently the smell happens during the 3 hour block. No YM should be wandering in and out of the Mother's room.

[Calm]

 

2 hours ago, rongo said:

she cannot and will not use the mother's lounge (like every other mom)

No, not every mom uses the mother's lounge.  In lounges that keep a diaper pail there and no window can be open, I won't use it as the smell of the disinfectant alone makes me sick.  If last ward, you get to add the stink of dirty diapers.

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

The news stories were also shockingly uncurious. It wouldn't be terribly hard to ask a few neighbors what was going on. (It's not hard to find ward boundaries) There still a ton of things that don't make sense to me that make me think much more was going on.

Again I wish there were far more public information on this.

It's possible, although it's a bit odd as I said to be nursing still at 18 mo. Clearly some do it, but if it's causing these logistical problems there are some alternatives. For that matter if the problem is, as some said, the smell in the nursing room, just assign some young women to change the garbage more regularly during church. There are lots of alternatives typically if people would just brainstorm.

I can handle dirty diapers better than the smell of the disinfectant added to the diaper pail.

[juliann]

19 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

This is just asking for trouble. Apparently the smell happens during the 3 hour block. No YM should be wandering in and out of the Mother's room.

 

"Um, why not YM? They aren't going in during church."

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

In lounges that keep a diaper pail there and no window can be open, I won't use it as the smell of the disinfectant alone makes me sick.  If last ward, you get to add the stink of dirty diapers.

We're specifically forbidden from disposing of used nappies at the chapel. There is no bin for them in the mothers room, and signs remind parents that they must be taken home. Apparently this is not standard across the Church?

[Calm]

 

2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Clearly the author doesn't think exposing all of ones chest is wrong and that to even think it is wrong is "rape culture." As I said, I think both sides in the debate err when they tie modesty to sexuality and lust. That's frankly silly for a lot of reasons one could quickly come up with. If an overweight guy comes into church shirtless it's not remotely lustful but I think most people would say it was immodest and ask him to put on a shirt or leave.

He may even have a perfectly good reason for doing so...he is getting overheated easily and gets faint when he does and the Church temperature is kept too high, so it is either removing the tie and opening his shirt up during Church or not going at all (there are wards which keep temperatures high because of cost or because they have members who get cold easily).  

[Duncan]

I phoned my Mom (she nursed all 4 of us) and told her about all this and she said that she can see both sides, on one hand she said the Church has been telling couples to have kids for years and years so why is it an issue to feed them once in awhile and she challenges the men to sit in a hot stuffy room and feed a kid.She said the old building we went to had a utility room with the furnace and industrial stuff all over the place and women had to sit on a makeshift bench made from concrete pieces that were left over when they built the building, "do you think men ever went in there and fixed it up? no, but they sure are good at making babies and then they send the women off to feed their kids in a cold dark, cramped room". They called it "the doom room". On the other hand some people are over sensitive and it shouldn't have been reported to the Stake President, it should have been handled on a ward basis. FWIW

[Calm]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

Well, all accommodations are out the window, now. 

The point was it didn't need to get to this point if the SP hadn't made it about the temple recommend, (assuming this at least it true).

There were apparently still options a proactive bishop might have made.

------

I find it interesting that the bishop didn't stop her recommend process at the ward level, but was okay with the first counselor signing off even when he wouldn't if I followed the story correctly.

Really makes me wonder about the rest of the story.  Sounds like the ward in general was pretty accommodating as it had been likely going on for months, the bishop might have been frustrated enough to draw a personal line of accommodating by not signing it himself, but didn't turn it into a church thing by banning her from getting one.

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I find it interesting that the bishop didn't stop her recommend process at the ward level, but was okay with the first counselor signing off even when he wouldn't if I followed the story correctly.

Really makes me wonder about the rest of the story.  Sounds like the ward in general was pretty accommodating as it had been likely going on for months, the bishop might have been frustrated enough to draw a personal line of accommodating by not signing it himself, but didn't turn it into a church thing by banning her from getting one.

The bishop may not have known about the recommend interview, and she may have purposely and preemptively sought an appointment with a counselor instead of the bishop, as an end run. 

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I phoned my Mom (she nursed all 4 of us) and told her about all this and she said that she can see both sides, on one hand she said the Church has been telling couples to have kids for years and years so why is it an issue to feed them once in awhile and she challenges the men to sit in a hot stuffy room and feed a kid.She said the old building we went to had a utility room with the furnace and industrial stuff all over the place and women had to sit on a makeshift bench made from concrete pieces that were left over when they built the building, "do you think men ever went in there and fixed it up? no, but they sure are good at making babies and then they send the women off to feed their kids in a cold dark, cramped room". They called it "the doom room". On the other hand some people are over sensitive and it shouldn't have been reported to the Stake President, it should have been handled on a ward basis. FWIW

Again, the nudity in the foyer (among some other issues) was the issue not the nursing. No one was objecting to the exposure resulting from nursing that I am aware of. 

 

[Calm]

43 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

This is just asking for trouble. Apparently the smell happens during the 3 hour block. No YM should be wandering in and out of the Mother's room.

We have YM emptying the garbage in the Women's bathroom after church is out.  All they do is knock and slightly open the door and say they are there to pick up garbage.  In one ward I have been in , they did it during the three hour blocks when the bathroom has a change table and thus dirty diapers and someone complains.

While more convenient not to have to hassle with this by using women, logistics are not impossible.

[MorningStar]

Some random points I would like to make:

The mother's lounge almost always smells like dirty diapers. It's nauseating. Other times you are there alone with all of your children and have to drag them in there with you when there's not enough room. 

Some babies will not nurse covered or later won't tolerate it when they get older. My babies (when they got older) used to stand up on my lap with their butts in the air while nursing like the little weirdos they were and dance. I would try to cover, but it wouldn't always stay on. At least I tried. 

Breasts are for nursing but they are also sexually arousing to boys and men. When I was in Austria, I watched two 13-year-old boys run across a park to leer at a woman who had taken her shirt off to nurse. This was not long after they told me nudity means nothing to them. 

What I'm hearing about this story reminds me of a friend who posts pictures of her breast with her baby attached and says, "If you don't like it, don't look!" Yet she's putting it there in her friends' newsfeeds and you get a look at it whether you want to or not. In our culture, people are uncomfortable with uncovered breasts - both men and women. Our culture will take a while to change and maybe it won't ever change because our society is sex obsessed. 

If it's true this woman is exposing both breasts while nursing, causing the Deacons to have to approach her while in that state, that's disgusting. If someone were doing that to my boys, I would have words with the woman. There needs to be a compromise. People who are uncomfortable or have issues with breastfeeding should look away. Women who nurse shouldn't do so to get attention.  If she was exposing her breasts to make some kind of statement, then her SP was right to deny her a temple recommend. 

[juliann]

And this is what these activists claiming to be feminists have accomplished. A young mother has posted that she is now fearful of being hauled in for nursing because everyone is being told this happened because of what mothers typically do every Sunday in church. 

Having worked so long at bridging the gap between so many members and scary feminism, I am REALLY angry about this scam. Can you tell?