Woman Denied Temple Recommend for ...

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

We're specifically forbidden from disposing of used nappies at the chapel. There is no bin for them in the mothers room, and signs remind parents that they must be taken home. Apparently this is not standard across the Church?

Nope.  I can see it being a problem if parents then carry around the diaper in their bag.  However, you can put them in ziplock or other air/water tight containers, so it might require some forethought, but can be done even if you don't want to dump them in the car.

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Duncan said:

She said the old building we went to had a utility room with the furnace and industrial stuff all over the place and women had to sit on a makeshift bench made from concrete pieces that were left over when they built the building, "do you think men ever went in there and fixed it up? no, but they sure are good at making babies and then they send the women off to feed their kids in a cold dark, cramped room". They called it "the doom room". 

That is as bad as telling them to do it in bathrooms, possibly forgetting there aren't even seat covers like at home.

[Hamba Tuhan]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

However, you can put them in ziplock or other air/water tight containers, so it might require some forethought, but can be done even if you don't want to dump them in the car.

Everyone I know here carries nappy bags that can be sealed off. Interesting.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[rongo]

1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Everyone I know here carries nappy bags that can be sealed off. Interesting.

Hamba, you can tell Americans not to throw diapers in the garbage cans at church, and they will continue to do it with a vengeance (laziness and convenience). It doesn't surprise me that people in your neck of the woods are more considerate and responsive to counsel. 

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Everyone I know here carries nappy bags that can be sealed off. Interesting.

It could be a big hassle along with a quad and all the baby supplies, (more reason to go to electronic scriptures, lol), but I like the idea as the payoff would be less suffering while nursing.

[strappinglad]

We have 3 wards in our building. Church ( not counting Bishop meetings etc. ) starts at 9 am and runs until 4 pm. Picking up the garbage AFTER 4 pm is OK. YM  would find the Mother's room likely occupied at ANY time from 9 til 4. Picking the diapers up after 4 pm will not make the room smell any better before that. So that means YM after all meetings end, YW at specific times during meetings. Not accommodating enough ???

[juliann]

Just now, strappinglad said:

We have 3 wards in our building. Church ( not counting Bishop meetings etc. ) starts at 9 am and runs until 4 pm. Picking up the garbage AFTER 4 pm is OK. YM  would find the Mother's room likely occupied at ANY time from 9 til 4. Picking the diapers up after 4 pm will not make the room smell any better before that. So that means YM after all meetings end, YW at specific times during meetings. Not accommodating enough ???

They need to just take out the diaper bin. There isn't enough room in there to be changing diapers in a sanitary manner anyway. The solution is to make the men responsible for diaper changing. 😉

[rongo]

5 minutes ago, juliann said:

They need to just take out the diaper bin. There isn't enough room in there to be changing diapers in a sanitary manner anyway. The solution is to make the men responsible for diaper changing. 😉

I always just used an empty primary room. Yes, the men's room had a Koala changing station, but it was just easier to do it on a floor somewhere (with a changing pad). Even though I was in bishoprics during all four kids' growing up, I usually took the babies for the duration of church. I loved holding them, and just held them while teaching, talking to people, or whatever (I was also good at getting them to fall asleep for some reason). I'm a big pacer, and had no problem walking the floor for hours in the early morning with crying babies so mom could sleep. Just thinking my thoughts . . . I often held other sisters' babies as well, and my suits all got stained shoulders from spit up (sometimes the burp rag slips or falls). 

Edited July 27, 2018 by rongo

[strappinglad]

A strange thought comes to mind. In today's world of " everyone has a camera " , I am surprised that someone didn't take a photo of the woman "  inflagrante" , and post it to the web if this has been an ongoing problem in the ward. Yes , I know that would be inexcusable but since when has that stopped folks ?

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, juliann said:

The solution is to make the men responsible for diaper changing.

I'm perfectly fine with that. I can change a baby as well as anyone else. But as we recently learnt in another thread, this requires trusting men around children first ...

5 minutes ago, rongo said:

I often held other sisters' babies as well, and my suits all got stained shoulders from spit up (sometimes the burp rag slips or falls). 

I've always considered baby spew on my shoulder a badge of honour!

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

"Um, why not YM? They aren't going in during church."

Her complaint was during church. Most churches get cleaned Saturday and all the garbages emptied. So I assume by smell she means the buildup of dirty diapers during Church. That could accumulate especially if you live in Utah and have three wards meeting throughout the day. So I suspect most mothers wouldn't appreciate a bunch of Deacons coming in. (Assuming you could get them to be willing to go in)

My point was just to have someone go in regularly and empty it if it's stinky. Alternatively just have the ward buy a diaper genie that seals things somewhat so the smell doesn't escape. While I think they're overpriced and far from durable, they do work. When ours broke we didn't replace it though since it's easy enough to just take the diapers outside to the main garbage.

1 hour ago, Calm said:

We have YM emptying the garbage in the Women's bathroom after church is out.  All they do is knock and slightly open the door and say they are there to pick up garbage.  In one ward I have been in , they did it during the three hour blocks when the bathroom has a change table and thus dirty diapers and someone complains.

While more convenient not to have to hassle with this by using women, logistics are not impossible.

True. But the problem is during church. But of course they can still knock and see if someone is in. Just that at least in our building someone is almost always in. Maybe that's more unique to Provo.

But my only real point is that there's lots of middle ground. Making the nursing room more appealing might not even interest her but I'm loath to say no middle ground could be made unless her prime interest is in making a political point. So I'm not saying this is the solution. Just that it's a possible solution. Now I could actually believe the Bishop made no attempt and finding a compromise, but I can also at this stage believe he did try.

1 hour ago, Calm said:

The point was it didn't need to get to this point if the SP hadn't made it about the temple recommend, (assuming this at least it true).

True but again at this stage I'm pretty suspicious of the entire account both by 2 News and by the Exponent. It seems to me they've intentionally distorted things to be misleading. There's too much suspicious here and I was inclined to give her the benefit of doubt initially. At this stage I suspect the SP was at wit's end to figure out what to do. As I said earlier what do you do when someone refuses middle ground and is disrobing for potentially political reasons? I'm not saying what he did was right, but cases like this are why I hope I never, never get a leadership position.

58 minutes ago, juliann said:

They need to just take out the diaper bin. There isn't enough room in there to be changing diapers in a sanitary manner anyway. The solution is to make the men responsible for diaper changing. 😉

That's a good point. In our ward they redid the bathrooms and made one the "family bathroom" that had the changing table in it. Ideally you shouldn't be changing diapers in the nursing room. I'll have to ask my wife if they even have a changing table in there. Now that I think about it I don't think they do - just that designated bathroom.

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by clarkgoble

[LoudmouthMormon]

6 hours ago, Danzo said:

You are just coming from an american perspective.

Well, yeah... I'm an American, the story happened in America, it's an Americocentric story.   Not sure what is your point.  Which country's perspective should I be coming from?

 

Quote

One of the things I get tired of is when well meaning LDS people try to impose white middle class Utah culture and call it 'Modesty'.

I live in Colorado.  Public nudity doesn't fly here either. 

 

DoYerHomework101

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by LoudmouthMormon

[Calm]

55 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm perfectly fine with that. I can change a baby as well as anyone else. But as we recently learnt in another thread, this requires trusting men around children first ...

Most women change their own kids' diapers rather than handing them off to other women to do, so I am assuming Juliann meant have the dads change the diapers.

[Calm]

Quote

So I suspect most mothers wouldn't appreciate a bunch of Deacons coming in. (Assuming you could get them to be willing to go in)

Only one is needed to dump garbage.

[clarkgoble]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Only one is needed to dump garbage.

One to empty one to supervise. (grin) I meant over the day - I'd hate to be the single deacon assigned on woman's bathroom duty from 8:30 to 4:30.

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

 

That's a good point. In our ward they redid the bathrooms and made one the "family bathroom" that had the changing table in it. Ideally you shouldn't be changing diapers in the nursing room. I'll have to ask my wife if they even have a changing table in there. Now that I think about it I don't think they do - just that designated bathroom.

 

Yep, there is a hygiene issue, especially if anyone puts dirty wipes or a diaper on the floor and a baby blanket or toy falls in the same spot OT other kids are playing in there while mom takes care of youngest.  Would you think it appropriate for kids to be playing on the bathroom floor?

[Tacenda]

Recently I showed up to help clean my church, and when I got there asked what I could do and a gentlemen said to empty all the garbages. I went into the men's room and emptied the diaper pail. Whoa! It had a couple of ones in there that just plain reeked that you could smell clear out to the common areas. I was impressed that there was a diaper pail in the men's room and even saw diapers in there. And the women's was empty. I have a feeling a lot of women have the men do this on Sundays haha! But sure wish the deacon's in our ward had emptied it.  

Edit to add: I wish they'd bring back janitors, our ward building isn't very clean, the brother in charge even said our building needed a deep clean when I was vacuuming and there was imbedded play dough and other strange things. If a non member visitor came to our building they would wonder if we were the same church that builds such beautiful temples. But our building is so old that we have different levels and is falling apart where ever you look.  

Edited July 27, 2018 by Tacenda

[clarkgoble]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yep, there is a hygiene issue, especially if anyone puts dirty wipes or a diaper on the floor and a baby blanket or toy falls in the same spot OT other kids are playing in there while mom takes care of youngest.  Would you think it appropriate for kids to be playing on the bathroom floor?

Ours is a carpeted room off the main women's bathroom. (The second men's bathroom got turned into the family bathroom) It's whether there's a changing table near it that I wasn't sure of. Since I don't go in there much (grin) I'll have to ask my wife. It's been too long since during assigned cleaning I cleaned the bathrooms Saturday evening.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, clarkgoble said:

Ours is a carpeted room off the main women's bathroom. (The second men's bathroom got turned into the family bathroom) It's whether there's a changing table near it that I wasn't sure of. Since I don't go in there much (grin) I'll have to ask my wife. It's been too long since during assigned cleaning I cleaned the bathrooms Saturday evening.

One of the problems with everything but the bathroom and kitchens being carpeted, but then used for diaperchanging.

[Danzo]

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Well, yeah... I'm an American, the story happened in America, it's an Americocentric story.   Not sure what is your point.  Which country's perspective should I be coming from?

 

I live in Colorado.  Public nudity doesn't fly here either. 

 

DoYerHomework101

 

Thinking that America is the only place, and ignoring the possibility that things  can be done differently  is also uniquely American!

[USU78]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Most women change their own kids' diapers rather than handing them off to other women to do, so I am assuming Juliann meant have the dads change the diapers.

What is the big deal about guys changing diapers? I did it probably 3/4 of the time with my own kids, did at least 1/2 of the up in the nights duty (best times ever), and have trained my stepdudes to do the same.

And we aren't that unusual.

[USU78]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Recently I showed up to help clean my church, and when I got there asked what I could do and a gentlemen said to empty all the garbages. I went into the men's room and emptied the diaper pail. Whoa! It had a couple of ones in there that just plain reeked that you could smell clear out to the common areas. I was impressed that there was a diaper pail in the men's room and even saw diapers in there. And the women's was empty. I have a feeling a lot of women have the men do this on Sundays haha! But sure wish the deacon's in our ward had emptied it.  

Edit to add: I wish they'd bring back janitors, our ward building isn't very clean, the brother in charge even said our building needed a deep clean when I was vacuuming and there was imbedded play dough and other strange things. If a non member visitor came to our building they would wonder if we were the same church that builds such beautiful temples. But our building is so old that we have different levels and is falling apart where ever you look.  

Every member a janitor.

 

 

[HappyJackWagon]

15 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

My wife was just saying that, in her experience, some people grossly overreact to breastfeeding in public, and she suggested that might be what is happening in this circumstance. I'll take your word for it that it is something more. A while back we were at the Houston Space Center, and my daughter couldn't find a good place to nurse her daughter, so we were in the back of a darkened theater, so she discreetly covered up and fed my granddaughter. A couple of older women started loudly berating her for her "disgusting" behavior. I guess that makes me more willing to believe that people might overreact.

This is exactly what I was thinking too. In this thread people are stating that the woman can't be believed because people "always embellish". Maybe that's true, I don't know. But if it is, that means these witnesses could also be embellishing. Both the original woman, and the witnesses who turned her in to the bishop could be embellishing to make their side look more reasonable. Did the tattlers even witness it themselves, or are they going off the testimony of a 12 year old boy who passed this woman the sacrament? I would imagine a 12 year old boys reaction and perception of "nearly topless" would be quite different than an adult's. In any case, it seems we have to take Juliann's word about what she read from witnesses, and I wonder if they were even 1st hand witnesses. While I don't doubt Juliann read and believes those witnesses, we have no way to view the accounts. We know less about the witnesses and what they claim to have seen than we do from the actual woman.

Again, a 12 year old boy is likely to overreact to seeing even an inch of skin and it would be in the tattler's personal interest to make it seem like the woman was nearly topless. I'm surprised she was dressed at all if these reports are to be believed  

[rongo]

18 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This is exactly what I was thinking too. In this thread people are stating that the woman can't be believed because people "always embellish". Maybe that's true, I don't know. But if it is, that means these witnesses could also be embellishing. Both the original woman, and the witnesses who turned her in to the bishop could be embellishing to make their side look more reasonable. Did the tattlers even witness it themselves, or are they going off the testimony of a 12 year old boy who passed this woman the sacrament? I would imagine a 12 year old boys reaction and perception of "nearly topless" would be quite different than an adult's. In any case, it seems we have to take Juliann's word about what she read from witnesses, and I wonder if they were even 1st hand witnesses. While I don't doubt Juliann read and believes those witnesses, we have no way to view the accounts. We know less about the witnesses and what they claim to have seen than we do from the actual woman.

Again, a 12 year old boy is likely to overreact to seeing even an inch of skin and it would be in the tattler's personal interest to make it seem like the woman was nearly topless. I'm surprised she was dressed at all if these reports are to be believed  

All true, and yet, we still have how this couple has been behaving on social media, blogs, and in the media. In fact, that is the only thing that we all know for sure, and that burns through the interference of what either side may or may not be embellishing. 

"Give me the foyer, or give me death!" 

Edited July 27, 2018 by rongo

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, rongo said:

All true, and yet, we still have how this couple has been behaving on social media, blogs, and in the media. In fact, that is the only thing that we all know for sure, and that burns through the interference of what either side may or may not be embellishing. 

"Give me the foyer, or give me death!" 

True. For those who feel that any person who publicly speaks negatively about their  priesthood leader is crass and out of line, you're right. If you view that behavior as wholly inappropriate it is likely to color your perspective about the rest of their story because, obviously a good and honest person wouldn't do such a thing. So as long as people believe a "good Mormon" would never behave so badly by speaking out publicly, those people will obviously be "bad Mormons" and therefore untrustworthy.

On the other hand, for people like me who don't see publicly speaking out as a problem, and actually admire people who do it despite the piles of criticism heaped upon them, my perspective is colored as well.

But I thought everyone embellished. Or is that everyone except good Mormons? I look at it from the perspective of who risks losing credibility. The breastfeeding mother already lost credibility by simply coming forward with a complaint. Sure, she'll try to make herself sound as good and noble as possible, but she's already lost credibility with a huge part of the population simply by telling her story. So I'm not sure how much embellishing will help her. On the other hand, people who privately tattled to the bishop about her breastfeeding risk the loss of credibility and respect to friends and ward members when people find out they tattled. So to justify the tattling, the story gets embellished to show that they really had no other choice because the breastfeeder's behavior was just so terrible.

So I get why you don't trust the breastfeeder but I hope you can at least see that the accusers also have a stake in this now and it is just as easy to see why they might want to embellish as well.