Woman Denied Temple Recommend for ...

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Oh wow, I agree that this just keeps getting stranger (I left my computer for awhile and am catching up).  I haven't heard of the group juliann posted about (thanks for the additional info, juliann).

Are people exaggerating what she's doing or could she really be completely disrobing from the waist up?  Like you said, that would take some doing, but if she is, then what an awful position for her ward leaders (and now stake leaders) to be in regarding having to deal with all this.  She has every right to nurse in public, but, one should use some discretion when there are families present and in a church setting.

I still really do not like how the SP dealt with it (if we are getting accurate quotes and details).

I go back to feeling that both sides of this could have dealt with it better.

OK, before this gets overstated, I should modify that to she was exposing both breasts. Topless does give an inaccurate picture in that we see that as completely disrobing. I do think the effect is the same, though. I am not aware of any instance where she has disputed that, BTW.

And I don't want this to be a pile-on of her. I really do have sympathy for the situation she is now in and why she would be doing that. I think she needs support as a person.

Edited July 26, 2018 by juliann

[ttribe]

Just now, jkwilliams said:

Agreed. I've never seen anything like that in any of my wards, just crazy right-wing Uruguayans having fistfights with paraplegics in the foyer.

jwkwilliams wins the thread.  We can close it now.

[readstoomuch]

I don't think we can totally avoid these confrontations.  There is a portion of the population that is going to shout out loud on FaceBook, Yelp, HealthGrades when things don't go the way they want.  My parents told me that they were always going to believe the teacher over me so to not to complain.  I think plenty of times the teacher was wrong, but I learned to live with life not being fair.  My guess is that if this Sister, who probably has many wonderful qualities and her justifications, had gone back with her husband that it could have calmly been worked out.  If the stake president was still unreasonable, I would have asked if I could get an appt with the area general authority.  Otherwise, this sounds like another black eye on the Church and a future MormonStories/MormonDIscussionsPodcast episode.  

Breastfeeding is good.  Some reasonable modesty while breastfeeding also seems good.  

[ALarson]

10 minutes ago, juliann said:

It was that way from the beginning. It's not getting more anything. It isn't anymore difficult to expose both breasts than it is to expose one, especially when that is the intent. Perhaps you ought to leave that to the women to discuss. 

Sorry, if I added to this....but it is something that if we had wives who nursed, we do know a little bit about (not the same, I get that....).  I know my wife always tried to be discrete and it wasn't easy at times, so I do understand   This sister for sure could have nursed without completely exposing herself from the waist up.  I do think this story has gotten stranger from it just being a woman nursing her baby in the foyer (thanks again for adding some details and background that were not given originally).  But, if she started all of this on purpose, that's not right and she put the leaders in a very, very tough position.

Edited July 26, 2018 by ALarson

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Garden Girl said:

It's not as if a blanket has to be big, uncomfortable, or heavy weight... a small light-weight baby blanket would be sufficient... (I absolutely believe she should cover as a matter of simple courtesy and modesty).

GG

And can be handy to catch dripping.

[juliann]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

As I said, I have no access to the story being told by multiple women in that ward. If someone is going topless in the foyer, I can see how that would be a problem. It was my wife who said the above about the logistics of getting topless at church, so I'll defer to her.

I did say NEAR topless.....but that does give a wrong impression. I have edited the original comment to explain exposing both breasts. 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

OK, before this gets overstated, I should modify that to she was exposing both breasts. Topless does give an inaccurate picture in that we see that as completely disrobing. I do think the effect is the same, though. I am not aware of any instance where she has disputed that, BTW.

And I don't want this to be a pile-on of her. I really do have sympathy for the situation she is now in and why she would be doing that. I think she needs support as a person.

My wife was just saying that, in her experience, some people grossly overreact to breastfeeding in public, and she suggested that might be what is happening in this circumstance. I'll take your word for it that it is something more. A while back we were at the Houston Space Center, and my daughter couldn't find a good place to nurse her daughter, so we were in the back of a darkened theater, so she discreetly covered up and fed my granddaughter. A couple of older women started loudly berating her for her "disgusting" behavior. I guess that makes me more willing to believe that people might overreact.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve never seen a nursing blanket that was big and heavy. 

Any blanket can be a nursing blanket.

[ALarson]

22 minutes ago, juliann said:

OK, before this gets overstated, I should modify that to she was exposing both breasts. Topless does give an inaccurate picture in that we see that as completely disrobing. I do think the effect is the same, though. I am not aware of any instance where she has disputed that, BTW.

And I don't want this to be a pile-on of her. I really do have sympathy for the situation she is now in and why she would be doing that. I think she needs support as a person.

Thanks for the clarification, juliann.  I agree.

So where does this all go from here?  Any thoughts regarding a compromise or solution?  I hope this doesn't just keep getting more publicity (negative against the church).

I'm trying to put myself in the position of this taking place in my ward with one of my ward members (and me being asked to talk to this sister).  I can say that for sure I would not have brought her being responsible for men's sexual thoughts into the conversation (because I don't believe she is) and I also would not have ever instructed the husband "to control his wife"..

Edited July 26, 2018 by ALarson

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

And can be handy to catch dripping.

Uhhhhh.....another reason why it is best to leave this to women. LOL   

[Calm]

4 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

 

I don't understand the idea that breastfeeding in public is immodest because it leads men to have lustful thoughts. Maybe I'm an outlier, but I don't find breastfeeding even remotely arousing.

I think it gets that way because it gets separated from breastfeeding and is just about exposure.  A guy unbuttoning and opening his shirt up at church so you could see his upper chest would be labeled immodest, I suspect (along with very weird).

[juliann]

5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

My wife was just saying that, in her experience, some people grossly overreact to breastfeeding in public, and she suggested that might be what is happening in this circumstance. I'll take your word for it that it is something more. A while back we were at the Houston Space Center, and my daughter couldn't find a good place to nurse her daughter, so we were in the back of a darkened theater, so she discreetly covered up and fed my granddaughter. A couple of older women started loudly berating her for her "disgusting" behavior. I guess that makes me more willing to believe that people might overreact.

If witness accounts are true, that is NOT what happened in THIS instance.

Again, has there been an instance in which any other woman has been abused by a church leader for just nursing?  I really don't care what random mean people at church do, there is always somebody who will do something awful. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Calm said:

I think it gets that way because it gets separated from breastfeeding and is just about exposure.  A guy unbuttoning and opening his shirt up at church so you could see his upper chest would be labeled immodest, I suspect (along with very weird).

That would indeed be weird. I understand why people prefer that women cover up when breastfeeding, but I don't understand the idea that it's somehow encouraging men and boys to lust. My wife almost always used the "mother's lounge" to nurse the babies during church, but I have seen a lot of women nursing babies during meetings, usually with a nursing blanket.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, juliann said:

If witness accounts are true, that is NOT what happened in THIS instance.

Again, has there been an instance in which any other woman has been abused by a church leader for just nursing?  I really don't care what random mean people at church do, there is always somebody who will do something awful. 

That's what I'm saying. I don't know this woman or the people who say they've witnessed this. If that's not what's going on here, it's a different story entirely. Still, the SP didn't help matters by making it a power struggle.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, ALarson said:

Some babies won't nurse (or nurse well) if a blanket is over their heads.  It doesn't' matter if it's a heavy blanket or not.  I know this was the case for my wife and our babies....she finally just gave up and covered as best she could.  I think they make such excellent nursing blouses and dresses now (with the slits in them, etc.) that there is no need for a blanket (or anything over the baby's head) if the Mother is discreet and covers up.

My son was very active like he was doing jumping jacks while lying down, always trying to see what was at the back of his head, I can't remember if I ever figured out how to nurse him in public.  It was a major undertaking that required my full attention to get it just so or the result would be pain from one side not getting drained.

[clarkgoble]

40 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

This story just keeps getting weirder. Given the need to remove a dress or top, nursing bra, and nursing garments, it would seem the logistics of "exposing her full chest" would make the effort hardly worth it. I don't know what to make of this story. It's entirely possible that she's exposing more than a lot of people are comfortable with, but it's equally possible that what one person sees as discreetly breastfeeding might be described as "exposing her full chest." At this point, can anyone say anything with confidence, let alone certainty?

I'm not sure what Juliann's sources are saying (I believe her - but I wish there were something public on this). The Exponent Blog post she mentioned that I'd read already seems to be pretty ambiguous and intentionally trying to have it both ways by avoiding getting into the details. In response to the question,

• “How much of her breast was showing? I heard she wasn’t discreet. That changes the story A LOT. I nursed my babies in public, but I was discreet. If she’s discreet, it should be fine, if not, she should cover up or go to the mother’s room.”

the post replied

• The premise of this type of question needs further examination. Is breastfeeding inherently pornographic exhibitionism, or is it inherently holy?  It is inherently good, holy, nurturing and righteous, and has been since the dawn of creation.  Since it is inherently holy and not inherently titillating, scrutiny directed at the mother for how many inches of breast flesh are showing for how long reveals the prejudice of the person asking. To judge a nursing mother for showing too much flesh for too long is another example of sexualizing the act of breastfeeding and objectifying the woman in harmful ways.  The inherent holiness of breastfeeding does not change according to her “discreetness.” It is impossible and unfair for an uninvolved bystander to judge where the holy work of feeding a child ends and where intentional exhibitionism begins.  Despite it being holy work, is it possible that some men, women, or youth would observe a nursing mother and have a sexual response, discomfort or arousal? Sure, it’s possible.  People are attracted, aroused, or made uncomfortable by all sorts of things, including feet.  The responses of the uninvolved bystanders do not change the inherently good intention on part of the mother to feed her child. Their responses do not change her holy work into pornography. Conflating breastfeeding with modesty is rape culture language and shows a thought error on part of the accuser.

Clearly the author doesn't think exposing all of ones chest is wrong and that to even think it is wrong is "rape culture." As I said, I think both sides in the debate err when they tie modesty to sexuality and lust. That's frankly silly for a lot of reasons one could quickly come up with. If an overweight guy comes into church shirtless it's not remotely lustful but I think most people would say it was immodest and ask him to put on a shirt or leave.

Edited July 26, 2018 by clarkgoble

[Calm]

4 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I don't think we know all the story and in cases like this I'm skeptical what's presented is completely accurate. Further from what has been presented I think the SP went well beyond what's appropriate (again assuming what's presented is generally accurate - there may well be some other issues here). All that said though, exactly what options do the Stake President and Bishop have if the woman in question doesn't want to cover up? Honest question.

Let's say hypothetically (not claiming this of this case) that the woman just feels that breasts are non-sexual and that women shouldn't cover up. She just wants to drop her top openly, display her breast and feed the baby. She refuses when asked to cover up to do anything. This offends people around her. What should the Bishop do? Ask her to leave?

Tell the others who are offended to turn their backs or move themselves perhaps?  If she sits in the foyer or the overflow area, a screen could be used perhaps.

[rongo]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

Tell the others who are offended to turn their backs or move themselves perhaps?  If she sits in the foyer or the overflow area, a screen could be used perhaps.

Well, all accommodations are out the window, now. This couple won't be able to go back to that ward, even if they wanted to (which it doesn't sound like they do) --- let alone with a "screen" in the foyer provided specially for her when she comes back. From a human nature perspective. It would take a lot of humility --- like a heroic amount of humility. And humble isn't a characteristic that is shining through in their media and social media commentary. Double so when saying that they will go forever without a TR rather than back down on this. To --- back down on this --- would display heroic humility that is remarkable in our proud and face-saving social media culture. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by rongo

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Sorry, if I added to this....but it is something that if we had wives who nursed, we do know a little bit about (not the same, I get that....).  I know my wife always tried to be discrete and it wasn't easy at times, so I do understand   This sister for sure could have nursed without completely exposing herself from the waist up.

Chances are she could have, but it is possible that she got let down in both breasts and needed to 'release' both for comfort (it can be painful); also some women may have problems with letdown and the constriction of a bra may prevent it, requiring both breasts not be in harness.  Though in that case she could throw a blanket over the other shoulder until  changeover time.

I have seen older kids who are nursing who start playing with the other breast.  

I am also aware of some who get offended when a woman breast feeds a child who can ask for it.

I would not be the least bit surprised if the age of the kid has something to do with it.  Ward members thinking 'we have been patient for 18 months, making accomodation for this mother who chooses to nurse wherever she wants, who thinks she should be part of a conversation while nursing toddler...it is distracting and gone on long enough'.  Why can't the 18 month old wait to nurse at a more convenient time?  It isn't like nursing is their only form of nutrition.  A snack or juice could hold them.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Calm

[juliann]

6 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Thanks for the clarification, juliann.  I agree.

So where does this all go from here?  Any thoughts regarding a compromise or solution?  I hope this doesn't just keep getting more publicity (negative against the church).

I think that is a needed and healthy direction to go. That is why I was thinking of ways to circumvent this power struggle, but then I used to teach emotionally disturbed children and you spend the day figuring out how to outsmart them before the struggle begins. 

First of all, I want to see this obey, authority, defying language to die a quick death. Any leader who gets his back up because he isn't being given the last word needs to have a good talking down. 

Second, to never associate unreasonable instances of behavior with temple recommends. I hear those stories disturbingly often.  For instance, I am hearing of more women who object to having to discuss their underwear in any fashion for two men they might not even know. I am particularly sensitive to this because years ago, we got asked if our bra was over garments, back when that was a thing and up until a few days ago I thought it was once a standard part of the interview. I dreaded those cringy interviews and I'm pretty angry right now that I didn't know any better. So I have a real problem with any underwear discussion alone with a man who isn't my husband. I would support those women who will probably begin to decline to engage in such questions in growing numbers. 

So which leaders will decide to make it a power struggle ending in punishment and which will simply go to the next question?

[clarkgoble]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

Tell the others who are offended to turn their backs or move themselves perhaps?  If she sits in the foyer or the overflow area, a screen could be used perhaps.

Trying to picture how on earth that'd work in the typical foyer with late arrivals and their children running about. (Having been far too often in that foyer myself)

That avoids the central issue of course that from the Exponent blog this is causing conflict in the ward and clearly the people in question don't care about that. I think there are lots of middle grounds but from what Juliann has related, it sounds like the woman in question is intentionally trying to make a scene for political reasons. At first I just assumed this was cultural misunderstandings and felt bad. But it sounds like the author of that blog post knows the person and it's far more political in nature than I'd have guessed.

There is a lot of middle ground of course. Just do your best to not show the breast but have it not be a big deal if it shows. From everything I can tell the people in question are not interested in compromise that everyone can agree upon.

Edited July 26, 2018 by clarkgoble

[juliann]

13 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I'm not sure what Juliann's sources are saying (I believe her - but I wish there were something public on this). The Exponent Blog post she mentioned that I'd read already seems to be pretty ambiguous and intentionally trying to have it both ways by avoiding getting into the details. In response to the question,

• “How much of her breast was showing? I heard she wasn’t discreet. That changes the story A LOT. I nursed my babies in public, but I was discreet. If she’s discreet, it should be fine, if not, she should cover up or go to the mother’s room.”

the post replied

• The premise of this type of question needs further examination. Is breastfeeding inherently pornographic exhibitionism, or is it inherently holy?  It is inherently good, holy, nurturing and righteous, and has been since the dawn of creation.  Since it is inherently holy and not inherently titillating, scrutiny directed at the mother for how many inches of breast flesh are showing for how long reveals the prejudice of the person asking. To judge a nursing mother for showing too much flesh for too long is another example of sexualizing the act of breastfeeding and objectifying the woman in harmful ways.  The inherent holiness of breastfeeding does not change according to her “discreetness.” It is impossible and unfair for an uninvolved bystander to judge where the holy work of feeding a child ends and where intentional exhibitionism begins.  Despite it being holy work, is it possible that some men, women, or youth would observe a nursing mother and have a sexual response, discomfort or arousal? Sure, it’s possible.  People are attracted, aroused, or made uncomfortable by all sorts of things, including feet.  The responses of the uninvolved bystanders do not change the inherently good intention on part of the mother to feed her child. Their responses do not change her holy work into pornography. Conflating breastfeeding with modesty is rape culture language and shows a thought error on part of the accuser.

Clearly the author doesn't think exposing all of ones chest is wrong and that to even think it is wrong is "rape culture." As I said, I think both sides in the debate err when they tie modesty to sexuality and lust. That's frankly silly for a lot of reasons one could quickly come up with. If an overweight guy comes into church shirtless it's not remotely lustful but I think most people would say it was immodest and ask him to put on a shirt or leave.

That blog has been modified, they even added an "addendum" so I am more than sure they are fully aware of the other side. They just don't care. It depends on who is doing the talking, of course, but I have noticed that when they are challenged someone will come in and go into feminist jargon with overwrought religious references ....which is great if you are educated in it but fairly incomprehensible if you are not, so I find it telling when that is resorted to. It is sort of their version of doing power struggles when they don't have a solid position,  not much different than this SP. 

Again, I want to make it darn clear I am not complaining about "feminism." I am, however, concerned where this group of Mormon feminists are going and how many women they are willing to silence to get there.

[Calm]

I keep flashing to the fact it is an 18 month old nursing.  Nothing got said for 18 months apparently....so what changed to trigger it now?

An 18 month old likely has no baby blanket to easily use as a shield.  More likely to make their own wants felt including being able to see what is going on while grabbing a snack.  May stop sit up, look around and the latch on again.  Lots of babies lose interest in nursing by 12 months when solid foods are a main part of diet.  Kids can drink from a cup by a year easily.

Possibly people figuring the mom does not have to be treated as a 24/7 vending machine by her toddler, one can schedule feedings; kids can often lose interest in nursing when they get other foods...maybe the toddler itself is making it clear that it is not interested even when Mom is all gung ho still.  It may be her last baby and she doesn't want to give it up.

Anyway, it seems likely it is not just about a simple wee baby getting hungry and mom snuggling it in tight so nothing can be seen without some effort between the baby's head and mom's arm and clothing.

Quote

Each child is different. Some toddlers will breastfeed first thing in the morning and before bed. Others will continue to nurse throughout the day. Some will nurse as often as a newborn. The frequency and length of nursing sessions typically decrease as children get older, especially once they reach 15 months old.

Keep in mind that toddlers will nurse to reconnect emotionally within the safety of their mother’s breasts. This is how they re-charge. They may play intensely and then run over for a few sips and just as quickly return to their toys.

Toddlers, like babies, may want to nurse more frequently when in a different environment or when the house is full of “other” people. Once everything settles back to normal, these increased nursings will likely disappear.

http://theattachedfamily.com/membersonly/?p=2235

Edited July 26, 2018 by Calm

[rongo]

14 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

That avoids the central issue of course that from the Exponent blog this is causing conflict in the ward and clearly the people in question don't care about that. I think there are lots of middle grounds but from what Juliann has related, it sounds like the woman in question is intentionally trying to make a scene for political reasons. At first I just assumed this was cultural misunderstandings and felt bad. But it sounds like the author of that blog post knows the person and it's far more political in nature than I'd have guessed.

Going forward, the next time that a "leader atrocity tale" flash-in-the-pan firestorm erupts on social media (including message boards), it would be well to ask how much conflict is being caused in the wards. This is very similar to that lady who taped her stake president (the one disrupting sacrament meeting and sowing discord and trying to rile people up against others). I think that leaders have the mandate and authority to get people who are creating public conflict and won't stop to . . . stop doing it. 

[rongo]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

I keep flashing to the fact it is an 18 month old nursing.  Nothing got said for 18 months apparently....so what changed to trigger it now?

Possibly people figuring the mom does not have to be treated as a 24/7 vending machine by her toddler, one can schedule feedings; kids can often lose interest in nursing when they get other foods...maybe the toddler itself is making it clear that it is not interested even when Mom is all gong ho.

Anyway, it seems likely it is not just about a simple wee baby getting hungry and mom snuggling it in tight so nothing can be seen without some effort between the baby's head and mom's arm and clothing.

My wife visit taught a very nicely militant La Leche League high-up whose children up to five years breast fed. Maybe even older --- her philosophy was not to stop until and unless the children wanted to. They would walk up to her, go under her shirt, have a snack, and go about their business. She was angry because, in dentist shopping, she couldn't find one who didn't tell her she needed to stop breast feeding her kids (they had rotten teeth from the way-too-late breast feeding). My wife said that if the kids can say, in words, that they're hungry, it's definitely too late to do that (we breast fed up until the 1st birthday with our four)  .

The thing is that even this activist sister (otherwise a wonderful, super nice sister) followed the rules of civilization regarding decorum at church. She never breast-fed or allowed her older kids to breast feed at church, and she didn't expose herself while breast-feeding younger children. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by rongo