Baptists Coming Back to Utah to Evangelize Mormons

[Meerkat]

5 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

First of all, what I'm saying is not my theology.

Second, "belief" is repentance of unbelief.

Fits right in there.

But no response to the disparity between your concept of (non) repentance from evil behavior and the Evangelical definition of repentance as

56 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Evangelical repentance consists of (1) a true sense of one's own guilt and sinfulness; (2) an apprehension of God's mercy in Christ; (3) an actual hatred of sin (Psalms 119:128; Job 42:5-6; 2 co 7:10) and turning from it to God; and (4) a persistent endeavour after a holy life in a walking with God in the way of his commandments."  from 

I am feeling like you are here to accuse and stir the pot.  If it doesn't fit your narrative, ignore it.   The object is apparently not to consider and reason together.  That's unfortunate.  

Regarding your pictures, a more appropriate comparison than umbrella to summer clothes would be a comparison between someone helping a poor person in their affliction, and a neighbor caught in a compromising circumstance.  Which one is doing God's work? 

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, Free in Christ said:

Tell you what Jane Doe, I'll make you a deal.  If you can show me where LDS theology teaches that anyone can have eternal life today then I'll recant my position and rejoin the LDS faith.

Deal?

Free in Christ, you've been here before under a different name, haven't you.  Your comments sound familiar.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Meerkat

[Jane_Doe]

20 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Tell you what Jane Doe, I'll make you a deal.  If you can show me where LDS theology teaches that anyone can have eternal life today then I'll recant my position and rejoin the LDS faith.

Deal?

I'd rather you just answer the questions explaining YOUR faith.  According to YOUR faith, which you just explained (salvation only comes through faith, nothing else attached), every LDS person is saved.

I'm not trying to change your faith at all.  I'm not here to proselytize.  I happily acknowledge your faith, your choice their, and admire much about the Baptist faith. 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[RevTestament]

33 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Belief is an action verb, but not a work that we do.  Think I've asked you several times how you explain verses that clearly explain how belief is not a work that we do, but you will not respond.

As the Hebrews used the word it is an action verb that incorporates action. To believe Christ is not just to move your lips and say I believe in Christ. It includes following Him, living His commandments, etc. If you do these things then you truly believe in Him. If you don't, then he will call you an unbelieving hypocrite even as you profess His name.

Matt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

No offense, but if you do not His works, then you are built upon the sand of the philosophies of man, and are not free at all despite your name. You have fallen for oversimplified translations of Paul wherein the meat is left out.

[Amulek]

39 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Question for you that might help clarify the baptists point of view:

Answer?

Neither.

Both of these men are models. One is modeling a Halloween costume (I mean...a Fall Festival costume), and one is modeling a cream shawl neck sweater with gray shorts (for a casual level of dress). 

That's the answer according to this Mormon's point of view at least. Is the Baptist point of view that one of these men is actually a firefighter? How would you know?

 

 

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I ebb and flow on my posting here. I guess I've been on an ebb  I was still checking the board out from time to time.

If you come on through NM, let me know (you can PM me). If you're in my 'hood, I'll take you out for some hot New Mexican food and then force you to join me for a Latin Mass. Because of your childhood 'brainwashing' I'm guessing you still remember some of the Latin responses  Then we'll go to a brewpub (root b--r for you) and argue about post-modern philosophy and reenact the scene where Wittgenstein brandishes a firepok-r at Popper. I guess you'll get to play the part of Wittgenstein, but I'll get to have the moral high ground 😛

(I think the censor wasn't letting me post, so I had to mess with some words)

You got it!! Looking forward to it!

 I watch the pope every Christmas Eve, which is not technically my Easter duty but it is what it is.

I am definitely up on my responses but none of this " peace be with you "stuff! " leave me alone and let me at let me meditate bub"

 When I was a little kid I thought God's phone number was Etcumspiry 220.

Heck mine was Taylor 7165, So why not?

I even promise to listen to to my CDs on Gregorian chant on the way!

Edited August 1, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Hello friend,

First, we need to make a few quick clarifications.  Even among LDS your questions are fraught with uncertainty.  For example, what do you mean by "salvation"?  Are you referring to immortality?  What??  

Therefore, when we use the term "salvation", let's agree we're both referring to "eternal life" or the "highest salvation possible" because Baptists (myself included) do not believe in the idea of several types of salvation - there's only one and that is eternal life.

According to the Bible, "belief" is the only thing required for salvation/eternal life.  "Faith" is the physical, tangible side of one's belief.

Simple illustration:  

Answer?

So Godhood is a free gift.

Pretty interesting View.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Well MF, we LDS believe murderers can be saved also don't we? But we believe they need to be baptised and their temple work done on top of that. Not saying I side yet with anyone, still figuring it all out, but what do you make of that? And all those people that have abused people sexually? You have killed their innocent spirits, speaking of children especially. 

You do know of Hitler's work done in the temple right? But I think it was taken off the records. Or others that have murdered that had their work done for them? So it's really the denial of the Holy Ghost or Savior that is the real problem or the "unpardonable sin". So isn't it basically the same as the Baptists? In a round about way doesn't it all boil down to that? People that murder will be forgiven in the LDS scheme of things just as the Baptists, you can't deny that can you? And the Baptists believe if you don't accept Jesus as your Saviour then they will go into outer darkness. 

We believe people need to repent, yes, and obey God, yes, whatever their sins.  We also believe that all those who don't hear in this life have a chance to hear the Gospel in the next.

Do baptists believe that?  If not, that makes a difference of billions of souls having the potential to be saved.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Calm

[Tacenda]

53 minutes ago, Calm said:

We believe people need to repent, yes, and obey God, yes, whatever their sins.  We also believe that all those who don't hear in this life have a chance to hear the Gospel in the next.

Do baptists believe that?  If not, that makes a difference of billions of souls having the potential to be saved.

Calm, thanks for the reminder.

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You got it!! Looking forward to it!

 I watch the pope every Christmas Eve, which is not technically my Easter duty but it is what it is.

I am definitely up on my responses but none of this " peace be with you "stuff! " leave me alone and let me at let me meditate bub"

 When I was a little kid I thought God's phone number was Etcumspiry 220.

Heck mine was Taylor 7165, So why not?

I even promise to listen to to my CDs on Gregorian chant on the way!

Ha! I'm too young to have experienced the phone jokes, but my parents told me about them, so I get them

I am totally with you on the "leave me alone and let me meditate." A lot of people complain about the 'coldness' of Catholics, how when you go to Mass, no one greets you or chats with you. That was exactly what I needed. I needed to be left alone for about a your before someone talked to me (which is exactly what happened; the priest finally decided to talk to this guy that was at every Mass but never received Communion).

So one of the reasons I love Latin Mass is that it is so focused and centered on meditation, contemplation. It gives you space for it, it doesn't distract you from it with a language you can quickly understand, it adds to it with old religious music. There is also depth to it; if I want to intellectually analyze the ceremony, there is so much to think about (not to mention so much written about it). It gives both worlds: mystical and analytical.

So, ha, you gave me space to "bear my testimony" about Latin Mass. So when you get here, we'll just focus on the Wittgenstein battle

 

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

How most baptists and mormons interpret James 2 is an area of immense disparity.

Question for you that might help clarify the baptists point of view:

Cute but you have asked enough questions without answering them.  It's time for answers.

Make your point instead of playing around.  This is not kindergarten.

So you admit it is a problem of interpretation and that the words themselves are not clear.

So much for sola scriptura and literal interpretation of the Bible instantly without interpretation

The problem is not what your interpretation is vs my interpretation.  

The question you NEVER answer is how we determine who is right in these squabbles over words.!!

I get my answers directly from God, not my pastor, not the founder of my church, not the prophet even - were it not for my direct communication with God I could not even know if I SHOULD follow the prophet- so why should I listen to his advice unless it is verified by God himself ??  (It usually is.... but not always)

That's good enough for me.  You can't do better than having a conversation with God and getting answers.

Yet you don't believe that can happen apparently.  Maybe that's the whole problem right there.

James 1 of course:

Quote

 

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

 

 

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

How most baptists and mormons interpret James 2 is an area of immense disparity.

Question for you that might help clarify the baptists point of view:

Answer?

Who knows?

Frankly I think both are probably models.

[mfbukowski]

5 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Ha! I'm too young to have experienced the phone jokes, but my parents told me about them, so I get them

I am totally with you on the "leave me alone and let me meditate." A lot of people complain about the 'coldness' of Catholics, how when you go to Mass, no one greets you or chats with you. That was exactly what I needed. I needed to be left alone for about a your before someone talked to me (which is exactly what happened; the priest finally decided to talk to this guy that was at every Mass but never received Communion).

So one of the reasons I love Latin Mass is that it is so focused and centered on meditation, contemplation. It gives you space for it, it doesn't distract you from it with a language you can quickly understand, it adds to it with old religious music. There is also depth to it; if I want to intellectually analyze the ceremony, there is so much to think about (not to mention so much written about it). It gives both worlds: mystical and analytical.

So, ha, you gave me space to "bear my testimony" about Latin Mass. So when you get here, we'll just focus on the Wittgenstein battle

 

No I get it and agree

But all that is in the temple in spades- as well as in Sacrament meeting.

Hope it works out- sounds like fun!

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Free in Christ, you've been here before under a different name, haven't you.  Your comments sound familiar.

Yeah it was another one who used the "free" thing in his moniker.

Gotta be the same troll

I'm out.  There's nothing real here.  It's a waste of time

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Who knows?

Frankly I think both are probably models.

That fireman's suit looks like it has never encountered a whiff of smoke or a spray of water or even a smudge of dirt.

No deer in headlights plastered smile.

Model it is.

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Yeah it was another one who used the "free" thing in his moniker.

Gotta be the same troll

I'm out.  There's nothing real here.  It's a waste of time

LikeLy FormerLDS.  Last week his profile showed his last visit as the same day Free signed up.

Or perhaps they just read the same countercult sites and picked up the same set of gotcha questions, etc. and the disappearance/appearance is just a coincidence.  They do happen.

When this similarity was pointed out before a couple of times and questions asked by myself and at least one other, dead silence from Free.

If he was trying to get around a ban from a thread, he has intentionally violated the rules he promised he would abide by,  I don't believe just signing up under another alias is rule breaking though.  

Edited August 1, 2018 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

LikeLy FormerLDS.  Last week his profile showed his last visit as the same day Free signed up.

Or perhaps they just read the same countercult sites and picked up the same set of gotcha questions, etc. and the disappearance/appearance is just a coincidence.  They do happen.

When this similarity was pointed out before a couple of times and questions asked by myself and at least one other, dead silence from Free.

If he was trying to get around a ban from a thread, he has intentionally violated the rules he promised he would abide by,  I don't believe just signing up under another alias is rule breaking though.  

Yeah you are probably right

But there was another "Free" EV hereabouts I thought.  Maybe I am mistaken.  You are far better at that detective stuff than I am. 

 

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Yeah you are probably right

But there was another "Free" EV hereabouts I thought.  Maybe I am mistaken.  You are far better at that detective stuff than I am. 

 

I like puzzles.

add-on:  so of course you tweaked my curiosity and .I went to check out members with "Free" in their names....where has Freedom gone?  He hasn't posted since May.  Hope he is just making the most of the short Canadian summer.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I like puzzles.

LIFE

is the only puzzle I like figuring out. 

Same for games.   THIS is my game- what we do here.  Drives my wife crazy.  She has seven siblings- I have none.  No one to play games with!  I never got into them!

[Calm]

Any puzzle will do for me, though I prefer creative ones of beauty or beautiful ones of logic....or being in acmoment where I feel the current of ideas blowing a few mysts(icals) apart long enough to peer through to the Face of the Divine.  My mind wants to be a perpetual motion machine...no doubt why I have insomnia.  Back when I had to discipline myself enough to provide my own puzzles, I would write books in my head at night, all night...school could be dreary, but once there were kids, cleaning house and cuddling kiddies can be daytime rest for a weary brain...a few night books got put on to page, but it was already written 'in here' and therefore boring.  

Now  my drug of choice is the Internet,  I get to explore new worlds daily, meet alien creatures, and then at night I get to worry about all I needed to do during the day when instead I chose to explore.

I need to find some sort of balance...I am hoping by fall I will be removing one obstacle to concentration and my brother has some advice on how he has been controlling his version of the family sleep disorder saga...and there is a new rec center less than ten minutes away by car.  Who knows, if I can get back up to speed, might be able to even bike to it (downhill there, catch a ride back with a friend).  Get the physical back cooperating again....more puzzle creating for me.  

At the moment my game is go fish and the puzzle is how to maximize pleasure....is it teasing the two by winning in grandiose, prima donna fashion (tracking cards ain't that hard with six year old more intent on being tigger than card shark), play Sherlock to cypher out their cards, or do the whole drama queen with the hand to the forehead role of "how can I bear you winning yet again!!!"  They giggle a lot with that and can't wait to pull another card from my grieving hands.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Calm

[Storm Rider]

The game of words when talking with Baptists has long since lost its savor. I have always concluded they always have a very shallow understanding of scripture - they don't understand authority; they don't understand the early church; they deny they created their own religion without direction from God - it was not truth restored, but true created by man; they fail to understand why Jesus instructed his apostles to baptize; they fail to understand faith demands actions and fulfill God's commands; works terrify them and they seek to reject any demand for them.

Grew up with them, love them, and understand they are doing as much as they can to follow Christ as they understand it.  They just don't understand it very well. 

[Meerkat]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

At the moment my game is go fish and the puzzle is how to maximize pleasure....is it teasing the two by winning in grandiose, prima donna fashion (tracking cards ain't that hard with six year old more intent on being tigger than card shark), play Sherlock to cypher out their cards, or do the whole drama queen with the hand to the forehead role of "how can I bear you winning yet again!!!"  They giggle a lot with that and can't wait to pull another card from my grieving hands.

Ha ha!  We just got back from Louisiana and a batch of grandchildren.  I hadn't been big on Monopoly, but played the best game ever with two grandsons.  John said "Grandpa, you're going to like this." He proceeded to trade one of his properties with Grant, giving Grant higher rents at a lower price than he would have paid had he bought it by landing on it.  Then he took the property from Grant and traded it to me, giving me the last railroad I needed to increase my rents.  And he got what he needed to monopolize his properties-- win, win, win.  At the end, John won with more cash and properties than any of us.  And he was so helpful along the way, we were glad to see him win. THATS the way to play the game!  John is eleven.  I told him to talk to his dad.  With his skills, he could start now and do it with real houses.

[Free in Christ]

18 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I am feeling like you are here to accuse and stir the pot.  If it doesn't fit your narrative, ignore it.   The object is apparently not to consider and reason together.  That's unfortunate.  

Regarding your pictures, a more appropriate comparison than umbrella to summer clothes would be a comparison between someone helping a poor person in their affliction, and a neighbor caught in a compromising circumstance.  Which one is doing God's work? 

There are those who believe and those who do not believe.

The word "repentance" can fit the definition for both groups.

Unbelievers should repent of their unbelief and believe.

Believers should repent of sin.

[Free in Christ]

17 hours ago, Amulek said:

Neither.

Both of these men are models. One is modeling a Halloween costume (I mean...a Fall Festival costume), and one is modeling a cream shawl neck sweater with gray shorts (for a casual level of dress). 

That's the answer according to this Mormon's point of view at least. Is the Baptist point of view that one of these men is actually a firefighter? How would you know?

Ha!  Right you are - prize for Amulek and that is the whole point of James 2.

We can see man's faith, which is his outward works, but we cannot see the faith of Jesus Christ obtained through belief by looking at the outward works.

James 2:1 explains this "have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ...with respect of persons."

In other words, you cannot look at someone and tell if they believe - if they have the faith of Jesus Christ which saves the soul within.

Works do make someone saved any more than wearing a fireman's suit makes someone a firefighter.  That's why obeying the commandments can never make someone more acceptable to God.

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

There are those who believe and those who do not believe.

The word "repentance" can fit the definition for both groups.

Unbelievers should repent of their unbelief and believe.

Believers should repent of sin.

Free in Christ, did you see Calm's response to me about the LDS church being more forgiving than the Baptists? She said that at least if someone doesn't believe in this life, they are given another chance in the hereafter when LDS members do their temple work. What do you think of that? In the Baptist faith, don't they believe someone is just going to hell if they don't accept Christ as their personal saviour? I think this reasoning is precisely why you and others go after the LDS specifically. You want them to not go to hell for believing the way they do.