Meerkat Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 I have appreciated Free in Christ's contributions to an interesting discussion, particularly the questions asked. I would be interested to hear answers to questions posed to Free in Christ. 3
mfbukowski Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Meerkat said: I have appreciated Free in Christ's contributions to an interesting discussion, particularly the questions asked. I would be interested to hear answers to questions posed to Free in Christ. As would I. But every Evangelical who shows up here gets the same questions and inevitably leaves without answering them. 1
Popular Post MiserereNobis Posted July 29, 2018 Popular Post Posted July 29, 2018 As a Catholic, I just want to point out that all y’alls are wrong 😎 5
mfbukowski Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 24 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: As a Catholic, I just want to point out that all y’alls are wrong 😎 Dude! Where ya been? I missed arguing with you!! I mean what are friends for?? 🙃 I might be headed thru NM soon..
Waylon Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) Here is a question I have that I have never heard anyone outside of Mormonism answer satisfactorily. It goes without saying that Evangelicals, Catholics, and Muslims all believe that the majority of humanity is not going to heaven. My understanding is that all three believe one can easily "accidentally" miss salvation by being born in the wrong place at the wrong time. (Yes, I am aware of the concept of "invincible ignorance" in Catholicism, but frankly I have gotten to know Catholicism pretty well over the years, and I have not experienced either logic or any sort of feeling to tempt me to convert from LDS to Catholic, despite my best efforts to be open minded. I would therefore be proof that one can miss salvation accidentally even under Catholic teachings). In Genesis, God clearly contemplated destroying the Earth due to wickedness in Genesis 6:6-7. My question is this - if the majority of mankind really is going to burn in outer darkness, why didn't God destroy the slaughterhouse known as Earth as an act of mercy? This does not sound like a god described as "love" in the New Testament. This does not sound consistent with the mission of Christ on the Earth. I have heard the response "your morality is not the same as God's morality". That's all fine and dandy, but given the fact we recognize torture on Earth is evil even with our limited morality, something doesn't sit right about the idea of God torturing people horribly for eternity just because they didn't accept the word "consubstantial" in the Nicene Creed. (And yes, I am aware that the "real" reason we would miss heaven, according to these teachings, is because our righteousness falls short, yada yada, but in that case, under non-LDS teachings, God should have destroyed the Earth as he clearly contemplated in Genesis). In the LDS Church, this problem doesn't exist because: 1) everyone is better off having come to the Earth, even those in the telestial kingdom, 2) those who followed Satan in the pre-existence and missed all salvation are not in outer darkness accidentally but as the result of very conscious rebellion, 3) work for the dead ensures that God's final judgment will be more than just. Anyhow, food for thought. Edited July 30, 2018 by Waylon 1
Free in Christ Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 On 7/27/2018 at 2:08 PM, Meerkat said: When you say you believe in Jesus Christ, and He has changed your life, I accept your statement. When I say my life has been transformed through Jesus Christ, and it is manifested in my behavior, why do you require me to define what faith in Jesus Christ means, or Grace, or Salvation? Hello friends, Clearly your "life has been transformed through Jesus Christ". I suspect there are many non-LDS faiths that would also make this claim. Question for consideration: Does being "transformed through Jesus Christ" indicate that what you have is the truth? Why does 2 Corinthians 11:15 tell us that Satan's ministers are "transformed" into "ministers of righteousness"? Would you suspect a "minister of righteousness" would claim to manifest outwardly righteous behaviors? I'd say their transformation from a life of sin and wickedness was just as real and indicative as the transformation you describe. Their faith in the Savior was no less real than yours, yet they were actually ministers of Satan - deceived by Satan into believing they were ministers of truth. How is this possible? On 7/27/2018 at 2:08 PM, Meerkat said: You believe I need to prove I believe rather than just claim I believe. You stated that Baptist congregations disagree on the definition of words, as in the doctrines that some feel are required or optional. You said "....obeying the commandments to most Baptists... is completely optional... Obey only if you want because you love the Savior." We Mormons love to refer to the Scriptures because they help us communicate what we believe and why we believe it. This is what Jesus unambiguously said "12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. Baptists would interpret these passages completely differently, so I'll focus on their interpretation rather than restating the LDS point of view, which think most on this site already know. First, little more background for those who may not be aware. Baptists define "salvation" as "eternal life". According to their interpretation of the Bible, there is only one form of salvation and that is the highest possible salvation available. One is either saved (has eternal life) or is lost (has damnation and will go to hell forever and ever with no hope of ever getting out). So, it's an either-or situation. Therefore, when Baptist members read passages like the ones you mentioned, their interpretation is completely different because, in their beliefs, they already have salvation (eternal life or highest salvation possible). On 7/27/2018 at 2:08 PM, Meerkat said: This is what Jesus unambiguously said "12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. Baptists view belief as the only requirement for salvation (eternal life). Those who believe receive complete forgiveness of all sins - past, present and future. So Jesus Christ takes away all sin, but only for those who choose to believe upon Him and receive His gift of eternal life. Here's the catch, not only does He take all sin away, he simultaneously gives ("imputes") His perfection and His life when someone believes by indwelling that person. In that sense, He (Jesus Christ) lives within those who believe, and, as such, all of His works and all of His perfection is imputed upon the believer just as though we did all of those things. That's why Baptists don't believe obedience to laws and ordinances (man's works) can save anyone - because Jesus Christ has already given them perfect obedience. He did that for them just as if they did that. Because we have access to the Father, we have the ability to do even works than those works given to us through imputation. The Savior says these are "even greater" works. For example, sharing the truth with others, etc. On 7/27/2018 at 2:08 PM, Meerkat said: He went on to say "15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments." (From John 14.) He did not say it was "completely optional." Why did He tell the woman caught in adultery "Go your way, and sin no more" if obedience was optional? Some critical background information: Baptists believe the Bible teaches that man has a body and a soul - two completely separate bodies. One man is physical and one man is spiritual. The spiritual man is actually born dead even though the physical man is alive. The spiritual man can only be made alive through belief in Jesus Christ and receiving His life (eternal life). Accordingly, the atonement of Jesus Christ only applies to the spiritual man, NOT the physical man. The physical man therefore MUST pay the penalty of sin - death, but, for those who receive His eternal life, the spiritual man will never die or be condemned (i.e. receive the penalty of sin) . Knowing this, keeping the commandments is the same as "sin no more": it's something believers should do - not must do and only because we love the Savior, not for any type of salvific reason. Keep in mind, the idea is that if you are "saved", then you can be saved any more than that (i.e. eternal life = highest possible salvation). I try to obey the commandments because I love Him for giving me His life, His perfection and His righteousness. On 7/27/2018 at 2:08 PM, Meerkat said: James clearly stated "18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." from James 2. "25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" from John 10 Grace is a precious gift. If we do not respond to it with changed behavior, we can fall from Grace. The apostle Paul said in Hebrews 10: "26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" That is what I believe because it is clearly taught in the scriptures. And as we live it, the Spirit confirms the scriptures are true. I hope this explains my take on Grace. Do you agree? When it comes to the idea of "faith", you'd probably get various doctrinal opinions from the Baptist community. Some tend to equate faith with belief. Most would agree that "faith" in the Bible is synonymous with works since Hebrews says that "Faith is the substance of things hoped for". As a Baptist, I believe that "faith" IS works. My faith is my works. The faith of Jesus Christ is the works of Jesus Christ. No faith = no works. Accordingly, I can say that I believe that I am saved by works, but the difference is in whose works can save someone. You mentioned "Grace". LDS view grace completely different from Baptists. So different it's night and day! LDS "grace" cannot suffice without total effort on man's part. It is not sufficient and requires mans works (see Grace in LDS dictionary). To Baptists, "grace" is 100% sufficient and can ONLY be applied when one agrees with God that any effort on our part is vanity and sin and "filthy rags". While man's part is required for LDS grace to work, to baptists, grace can only work when man doesn't work. The interpretation then for passages like the one you provided in Hebrews 10 "if we sin willfully" indicates the punishment for sin upon the physical man and, for those who do not receive eternal life within their souls, the punishment for sin upon the spiritual body as well. All sin is willful sin - no one twisted your arm into sinning and made you do it. You knew it was sin, but you did it anyway.
Free in Christ Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 On 7/26/2018 at 8:39 PM, mfbukowski said: Quote Why do you believe Moroni's promise is God's test of truth? There you go! Now we are getting somewhere! For purposes of this discussion to keep things simple, let's say there are at least two ways we can "know" something. One is through hearsay from books or texts or etc. Unless you have been there you know that Antarctica exists because you have seen pictures, looked at maps, had faith that the books and the maps were "telling the truth" and accepted the existence of Antarctica without thinking about it much. That is the way most Christians accept the Bible I am afraid, because the existence of Antarctica can be empirically tested quite easily and the teachings of the Bible cannot be empirically tested at all. Period. Another way we know things is through direct personal experience. We know the sky is blue BECAUSE we agree on what defines the color "blue" - it is the color of the sky on a clear day A blind person has to take the existence of "blue" on faith - because she cannot experience it directly. She has to take it on faith that "red" is quite different than "blue" So asking how we know Moroni's test works is exactly the same way we know that blue is "blue" and not "red" We have direct personal experience of what the spirit feels like. Yes there are nuances, yes in strange lighting blue may appear more white, etc and yes occasionally we may get the color wrong as in the famous blue dress experiment on the internet. Such is life- we make mistakes sometimes in perception. We have to live with that failing. But Moroni's promise gives us DIRECT EXPERIENCE, not hearsay We believe based upon the same exact same element: You read it and chose to believe. This is not "Direct experience". The Book of Mormon says truth is manifested "by the power of the Holy Ghost". You chose to believe the feelings you feel are coming from the Holy Ghost. How is your logic any less circular that those whom you criticize? We both read and chose to believe what we read without any "DIRECT EXPERIENCE".
Free in Christ Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 On 7/27/2018 at 1:04 PM, mfbukowski said: But it seems they can interpret it any way they want. Every congregation is different. Well I guess I am a Baptist then, if that's all I have to believe. Of all our nuanced meanings I'm sure there is one that would correspond to the less detailed baptist beliefs. We are saved by grace and salvation is a free gift for those who believe in Christ. No problem I can affirm that all day long. We believe that that applies to everyone anyway, including of course believers in Christ. And salvation means going to heaven and living forever there in joy. Yep that makes me a Baptist. I'd add more, but if it's just those simple beliefs I'm in. Edited Friday at 01:19 PM by mfbukowski "Salvation" to baptists is the highest salvation possible. It is what LDS refer to as "eternal life" except baptists believe Jesus Christ gives it right now to anyone who believes. "Salvation" is the absence of any damnation. If that definition fits into your assertion that you must be a Baptist, then I guess I must be a Mormon...
mfbukowski Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Free in Christ said: We believe based upon the same exact same element: You read it and chose to believe. This is not "Direct experience". The Book of Mormon says truth is manifested "by the power of the Holy Ghost". You chose to believe the feelings you feel are coming from the Holy Ghost. How is your logic any less circular that those whom you criticize? We both read and chose to believe what we read without any "DIRECT EXPERIENCE". Huh? What are you talking about? When God speaks to you it is direct experience. It's not based on what you have read. You ask God for an answer. He gives it to you. That is direct experience. That you can get wisdom directly from God is throughout the Bible. 4
blueglass Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) godlovesmormons.com ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaPHRNHdTlk Looks like "faith without [love] is dead?" 1Cor 13:13, "but the greatest of these is charity". Take a look at this discussion on CARM (Christian Apologetics and Research ministry) on the topic of sanctification. https://C***.org/justification-and-sanctification "Sanctification is the process of being set apart for God's work and being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is not instantaneous because it is not the work of God alone. The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God's will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, and working to be more godly (Gal. 5:22-23). Significantly, sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a perfect life, we are still justified." "Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, sanctification is a process. Where justification comes from outside of us, from God, sanctification comes from God within us by the work of the Holy Spirit in accordance with the Bible. In other words, we contribute to sanctification through our efforts. In contrast, we do not contribute to our justification through our efforts." This is one area where Mormons and Christians talk past each other. Christians speaking on salvation through faith alone, (see JST Romans 3:28) and Mormons on sanctification requiring works. As Elder Oaks has stated, https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/05/have-you-been-saved?lang=eng "Good Christian people sometimes attach different meanings to some key gospel terms like saved or salvation. If we answer according to what our questioner probably means in asking if we have been “saved,” our answer must be “yes.” "This meaning of saved ennobles the whole human race through the grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. In this sense of the word, all should answer: “Yes, I have been saved. Glory to God for the gospel and gift and grace of His Son!” Edited July 30, 2018 by blueglass 3
mfbukowski Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 48 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: "Salvation" to baptists is the highest salvation possible. It is what LDS refer to as "eternal life" except baptists believe Jesus Christ gives it right now to anyone who believes. "Salvation" is the absence of any damnation. If that definition fits into your assertion that you must be a Baptist, then I guess I must be a Mormon... I guess so. So Christ gives you the ability to become like God right now. Great. You are definitely a Mormon. Obviously we are arguing about semantics. And your whole opposition to Mormonism is based on those semantics. The entire problem is that the Bible is ambiguous as we are showing right now. We need a prophet to clarify it, as a mechanism to define whether or not the prophet is correct. We have that. 1
mfbukowski Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 1 minute ago, blueglass said: godlovesmormons.com ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=287&v=eaPHRNHdTlk Looks like "faith without [love] is dead?" 1Cor 13:13, "but the greatest of these is charity". Take a look at this discussion on CARM (Christian Apologetics and Research ministry) on the topic of sanctification. https://C***.org/justification-and-sanctification "Sanctification is the process of being set apart for God's work and being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is not instantaneous because it is not the work of God alone. The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God's will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, and working to be more godly (Gal. 5:22-23). Significantly, sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a perfect life, we are still justified." "Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, sanctification is a process. Where justification comes from outside of us, from God, sanctification comes from God within us by the work of the Holy Spirit in accordance with the Bible. In other words, we contribute to sanctification through our efforts. In contrast, we do not contribute to our justification through our efforts." This is one area where Mormons and Christians talk past each other. Christians speaking on salvation through faith alone, (see JST Romans 3:28) and Mormons on sanctification requiring works. As Elder Oaks has stated, https://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/05/have-you-been-saved?lang=eng "Good Christian people sometimes attach different meanings to some key gospel terms like saved or salvation. If we answer according to what our questioner probably means in asking if we have been “saved,” our answer must be “yes.” "This meaning of saved ennobles the whole human race through the grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. In this sense of the word, all should answer: “Yes, I have been saved. Glory to God for the gospel and gift and grace of His Son!” Exactly!
Jane_Doe Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 3 hours ago, Free in Christ said: Baptists view belief as the only requirement for salvation (eternal life). Then all LDS are saved according to your own beliefs. 2
Free in Christ Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 57 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Huh? What are you talking about? When God speaks to you it is direct experience. It's not based on what you have read. You ask God for an answer. He gives it to you. That is direct experience. That you can get wisdom directly from God is throughout the Bible. How do you know the feeling in your heart is from the Holy Ghost?
Waylon Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: How do you know the feeling in your heart is from the Holy Ghost? Are you implying that we should not prayerfully seek the Lord's help in understanding doctrine and truth, that we should merely rely on our own fallible wisdom to interpret scripture, or worse, follow in blind faith? If so, I am simply appalled. Please clarify. Edited July 30, 2018 by Waylon 1
Jane_Doe Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) Free In Christ, Do you indeed believe that faith is the only thing required for salvation? If yes, then why do you not acknowledge that LDS people are saved? What other requirement are you adding on besides faith? Belonging to a Protestant church? Accepting extra-biblical documents as infallible? Passing a theology test? Edited July 30, 2018 by Jane_Doe 1
mfbukowski Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Free in Christ said: How do you know the feeling in your heart is from the Holy Ghost? So God allows Satan to answer prayers? Why? How do you know that what you experience as blue is not red to others? And how do you know the Bible is from God? You tell me how you know the Bible is from God and I will tell you how I know my experiences of God are from him. It's the same thing! You don't pray to God for advice? I know Christans who "pray about it" all the time! Edited July 30, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) Error Edited July 31, 2018 by mfbukowski
Meerkat Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 6 hours ago, Free in Christ said: How do you know the feeling in your heart is from the Holy Ghost? Free in Christ, I'm not sure you will understand the following metaphor from John 9. It is a sincere attempt to convey why I believe as I do. And I do appreciate your efforts to communicate your beliefs. The harder you work at it, the more I agree with Bukowski. Our differences (regarding definition of salvation,) are mainly semantic. This is one reason why I know what I know; "19 And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see? 20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind: 21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself. 22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue. 23 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him. 24 Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner. 25 He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see....." "30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes. 31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. 32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. 33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. 34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out. 35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him." 1
Free in Christ Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 18 hours ago, Waylon said: Are you implying that we should not prayerfully seek the Lord's help in understanding doctrine and truth, that we should merely rely on our own fallible wisdom to interpret scripture, or worse, follow in blind faith? If so, I am simply appalled. Please clarify. My point is, both LDS and Baptists ultimately believe based upon the exact same thing: choice. We read something and simply chose to believe what we read. Everything grows from the seed of belief.
Tacenda Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 39 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: My point is, both LDS and Baptists ultimately believe based upon the exact same thing: choice. We read something and simply chose to believe what we read. Everything grows from the seed of belief. Not really a comment on what you say here, just have a question. Do you think the main difference in the LDS and the non-LDS Christian is that the LDS don't automatically believe they are saved by Grace alone? And they lack the faith to believe that it is an automatic gift just by believing it to be so? Instead, the LDS believe it's somewhat a ladder of steps to finally receive the gift? I watched something recently about this. An interview with a former LDS turned non-LDS Christian, and this is how they put it. It's centers all on the ability to believe in the free gift, no works, and that is key. So IOW, LDS are in trouble for lacking this faith in the free gift vs. the ladder or works? Is this the whole gist of it all?
Waylon Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Not really a comment on what you say here, just have a question. Do you think the main difference in the LDS and the non-LDS Christian is that the LDS don't automatically believe they are saved by Grace alone? And they lack the faith to believe that it is an automatic gift just by believing it to be so? Instead, the LDS believe it's somewhat a ladder of steps to finally receive the gift? I watched something recently about this. An interview with a former LDS turned non-LDS Christian, and this is how they put it. It's centers all on the ability to believe in the free gift, no works, and that is key. So IOW, LDS are in trouble for lacking this faith in the free gift vs. the ladder or works? Is this the whole gist of it all? If that's the gist it makes no sense for Protestants to accept Catholics and Church of Christ yet exclude Mormons from their self proclaimed definition of Christianity. Some do exclude all three groups, but most accept Catholics and Church of Christ. The semantics are not really worth arguing, though. I know what I believe and why I believe it. Protestant teachings regarding salvation by faith alone, eternal security, baptism, and predestination require much wresting of the scriptures, and if there is any lingering doubts, were actually condemned by the First Century Christians (those taught by Paul, John, etc. and those taught by those taught by the apostles) as Gnostic-inspired heresy, and this fact alone would make me more than a little nervous if I held onto Protestant beliefs. There is apparently a trend of Protestants who have read the writings of these early Church fathers leaving Protestantism for Catholicism over these issues. I, of course, argue that these early Church fathers were not actually Catholic in their beliefs, but Mormon. But, I would invite everyone on this site to prayerfully read the writings of the Early Church Fathers along with the Bible (particularly the writings from the first couple of centuries AD, before the apostasy began taking hold and more and more truth was lost) and make up their minds as they will. Edited July 31, 2018 by Waylon 2
mfbukowski Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Free in Christ said: My point is, both LDS and Baptists ultimately believe based upon the exact same thing: choice. We read something and simply chose to believe what we read. Everything grows from the seed of belief. Not the case. If you have not had confirmation personally from God then you're right I guess. In that case we might as well be talking about UFOs. You read about them you either believe or you don't. It's not like that at all. 1
Free in Christ Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 17 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: Free In Christ, Do you indeed believe that faith is the only thing required for salvation? If yes, then why do you not acknowledge that LDS people are saved? What other requirement are you adding on besides faith? Belonging to a Protestant church? Accepting extra-biblical documents as infallible? Passing a theology test? Hello friend, First, we need to make a few quick clarifications. Even among LDS your questions are fraught with uncertainty. For example, what do you mean by "salvation"? Are you referring to immortality? What?? Therefore, when we use the term "salvation", let's agree we're both referring to "eternal life" or the "highest salvation possible" because Baptists (myself included) do not believe in the idea of several types of salvation - there's only one and that is eternal life. According to the Bible, "belief" is the only thing required for salvation/eternal life. "Faith" is the physical, tangible side of one's belief. Simple illustration: Answer?
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