Baptists Coming Back to Utah to Evangelize Mormons

[jkwilliams]

31 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Absolutely. I'm sensitive to this possibility every single time that someone converts to our faith as well. I don't blame anyone for feeling a sense of loss or betrayal. I would feel the same in their shoes. And I'm genuinely amazed at grateful and how often family members instead seem really supportive, though it takes a few of them some time. I would hope I could be the same.

It all worked out, though my parents were not thrilled when my nephew joined the Israeli Defense Forces.

[Hamba Tuhan]

36 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

My parents were not thrilled when my nephew joined the Israeli Defense Forces.

When I was a missionary in America, we actually had a ward member who had been baptised whilst serving in the Israeli military. Apparently quite a few LDS sign up ... or at least they had back then.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

That is an excellent question.

1) Because we’ve tested it. The Holy Spirit reveals the truth in a way we cannot ignore. As Christ said if we do what He says we will know for ourself weather the doctrine is from the Father.

2) because Moroni’s promise is consistent with the Principles the Lord teaches us in the Bible such as:

ask and ye shall recieve. Seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be opened to you.

If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God who gives to all men liberally 

do the doctrine and you shall know for yourself 

the Holy Spirit teaches truth.

no man can know things of the spirit except by the Spirit

if moroni’s promise is false and God will not answer sincere prayers to know truth then one must conclude the Bible is false as  well.

im not prepared to accept that premise

For me the difference is hearsay from a semi-legendary source (Bible) vs direct personal experience of God's love and concern.

No contest.

 

[Meerkat]

Our wonderful and faithful Baptist neighbors across the street hire Mormons to manage their apartments. I asked them why. They said "Mormons are as honest as the day is long. They are dependable. They will do what you ask and work hard until the job is done. There are no better workers than the Mormons. The only problem with them is that they are deceived." 

The Scriptures say "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:20-21. Are Mormons Christian? "...Show me thy faith without thy works and I will shew thee my faith by my works." James 2:18 In my experience, Mormons are Christians because they live what they believe.

We love our Baptist neighbors.  They are charitable, generous, have hearts for evangelizing, and love us pretty much as we love them.  They believe their works are a manifestation of Christ's saving grace working through them.  They first believed, then Jesus Christ transformed their lives.  I, on the other hand, reclaimed my faith in Christ by living in obedience.  "16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
            17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."  John 7:16-17

I believe Christ now works through me in the same manner as my Baptist neighbors.  But doing His will brought me to faith in Him.  It's semantics that I believe, blinds us to each others virtues.  I love and admire my Baptist neighbors to the degree that if they don't make it to the Celestial Kingdom, I probably won't be there either.

[mfbukowski]

error

Edited July 27, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Tacenda]

Haven't listen all the way through yet but about 50 minutes in he is going over the TR questions but doesn't really tell the truth. And this man said he was a former member, but maybe he never got a recommend or had these questions asked, still though if your going to train the Baptists how to reach out you need to get the info correct. Unless the questions have evolved and these really were asked at one time in the universe. But not while I attended...

 

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Haven't listen all the way through yet but about 50 minutes in he is going over the TR questions but doesn't really tell the truth. And this man said he was a former member, but maybe he never got a recommend or had these questions asked, still though if your going to train the Baptists how to reach out you need to get the info correct. Unless the questions have evolved and these really were asked at one time in the universe. But not while I attended...

 

Yep, lies.

If they were taught what we really believe, they would convert. It's too dangerous to tell the truth

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by mfbukowski

[RevTestament]

23 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

No, I never said that.  I don't believe the LDS view of eternal life as a reward of worthy behavior.  

Bit off topic, but read Rev 20:12-13.  Those who are saved and those who are not saved are both judged according to their works.  "Eternal life", received during mortality, is what separates those two groups.

Just to be clear, I view salvation not as a reward, but as being saved from punishment. Even many of the wicked end up being saved. To me other Christians confuse salvation with reward. Perhaps they think everyone shall end up being judges of Israel? There doesn't seem to be a way to reconcile the scriptures with the more traditional understanding that heaven is the same for everyone. I personally was not offended by your stating of your understanding of LDS belief, but I don't claim to fully understand the promise of eternal life. I kind of feel everyone saved gains eternal life, so in that sense it is not really a reward for worthy behavior being that even the unworthy may confess Him at judgment and gain eternal life. 

[Meerkat]

On 7/25/2018 at 4:09 PM, Free in Christ said:

Baptist congregations aren't "connected" or affiliated with each other like LDS congregations.  Their views, teachings and, to some degree, doctrinal definitions can vary greatly from congregation to congregation.  They don't have a single set of official doctrines or statements of faith, but they do for the most part agree on the fundamentals (i.e. salvation, etc)      

In other words, all Baptist congregations agree that Salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and His Grace and sacrifice for them.  (LDS also believe this doctrine.  I know that is a true doctrine because I have experienced the relief of forgiveness through Jesus Christ.)  Are you saying that other doctrines like baptism, repentance (making a valiant effort to turn from sin, as in changing behavior, good works, etc.) are optional and have no bearing on Salvation?  Do I have that right?  Please clarify.

If that is true, then what is the purpose of evangelizing Mormons rather than other faiths?  Why not evangelize other Baptist congregations whose doctrines you don't agree with? 

Why is the great sin of Mormonism that we actually encourage members to change their behavior for the better and actually follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and commit to a lives of charity and good works, repenting when we fall?

Why is it a sin to believe in scriptures that encourage us to strive for perfection, to become like Jesus Christ, to consider references to the importance of apostles and prophets, and the comimg forth of the Book of Mormon? If the main thing is believing Jesus Christ, and embracing the life transforming influence of the Holy Ghost, why evangelize Mormons?  We live that doctrine.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Meerkat

[Free in Christ]

27 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

In other words, all Baptist congregations agree that Salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and His Grace and sacrifice for them.  Other doctrines like baptism, repentance (making a valiant effort to turn from sin, as in changing behavior, good works, etc.) are optional and have no bearing on Salvation.  Do I have that right?  Please clarify.

I'd say yes, your assertion is very accurate and you'd be hard-pressed to find a Baptist that would disagree with your statement.  

The issue is interpretation of words used.  When you say works like "believe" and "faith" are you referring to works that we do?  In other words, no works = no belief, etc

Likewise, what are you referring to when you use words like "grace" and "Salvation"?  To Baptists, there is only one meaning, but to LDS there are many meanings.

What you are saying and what you are meaning may be two entirely separate things to non-members and (IMO) it's really not fair to just claim you believe that knowing they interpret things differently.

[Free in Christ]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Just to be clear, I view salvation not as a reward, but as being saved from punishment. Even many of the wicked end up being saved. To me other Christians confuse salvation with reward. Perhaps they think everyone shall end up being judges of Israel? There doesn't seem to be a way to reconcile the scriptures with the more traditional understanding that heaven is the same for everyone. I personally was not offended by your stating of your understanding of LDS belief, but I don't claim to fully understand the promise of eternal life. I kind of feel everyone saved gains eternal life, so in that sense it is not really a reward for worthy behavior being that even the unworthy may confess Him at judgment and gain eternal life. 

Do you believe "damnation" is punishment?

[mfbukowski]

37 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

I'd say yes, your assertion is very accurate and you'd be hard-pressed to find a Baptist that would disagree with your statement.  

The issue is interpretation of words used.  When you say works like "believe" and "faith" are you referring to works that we do?  In other words, no works = no belief, etc

Likewise, what are you referring to when you use words like "grace" and "Salvation"?  To Baptists, there is only one meaning, but to LDS there are many meanings.

What you are saying and what you are meaning may be two entirely separate things to non-members and (IMO) it's really not fair to just claim you believe that knowing they interpret things differently.

But it seems they can interpret it any way they want. Every congregation is different.

Well I guess I am a Baptist then, if that's all I have to believe.

Of all our nuanced meanings I'm sure there is one that would correspond to the less detailed baptist beliefs.

We are saved by grace and salvation is a free gift for those who believe in Christ.

No problem I can affirm that all day long.

We believe that that applies to everyone anyway, including of course believers in Christ.

And salvation means going to heaven and living forever there in joy.

Yep that makes me a Baptist.

I'd add more, but if it's just those simple beliefs I'm in.

Edited July 27, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Free in Christ said:

Do you believe "damnation" is punishment?

Do you believe that billions of God's children receive it for not having heard the words of Christ?

Now THAT'S a Free gift to you know who.   👹

Edited July 27, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Meerkat]

2 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

I'd say yes, your assertion is very accurate and you'd be hard-pressed to find a Baptist that would disagree with your statement.  

The issue is interpretation of words used.  When you say works like "believe" and "faith" are you referring to works that we do?  In other words, no works = no belief, etc

Likewise, what are you referring to when you use words like "grace" and "Salvation"?  To Baptists, there is only one meaning, but to LDS there are many meanings.

What you are saying and what you are meaning may be two entirely separate things to non-members and (IMO) it's really not fair to just claim you believe that knowing they interpret things differently.

 When you say you believe in Jesus Christ, and He has changed your life, I accept your statement.  When I say my life has been transformed through Jesus Christ, and it is manifested in my behavior, why do you require me to define what faith in Jesus Christ means, or Grace, or Salvation?You believe I need to prove I believe rather than just claim I believe.  You stated that Baptist congregations disagree on the definition of words, as in the doctrines that some feel are required or optional.

You said "....obeying the commandments to most Baptists... is completely optional... Obey only if you want because you love the Savior."

We Mormons love to refer to the Scriptures because they help us communicate what we believe and why we believe it. 

This is what Jesus unambiguously said "12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

He went on to say "15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments."  (From John 14.)  He did not say it was "completely optional." Why did He tell the woman caught in adultery "Go your way, and sin no more" if obedience was optional?

James clearly stated "18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." from James 2.

"25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
            26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
            27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"  from John 10

Grace is a precious gift.  If we do not respond to it with changed behavior, we can fall from Grace.  The apostle Paul said in Hebrews 10:

"26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
            27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
            28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
            29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

That is what I believe because it is clearly taught in the scriptures.  And as we live it, the Spirit confirms the scriptures are true.  I hope this explains my take on Grace. Do you agree?

Edited July 27, 2018 by Meerkat

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

The issue is interpretation of words used.  When you say works like "believe" and "faith" are you referring to works that we do?  In other words, no works = no belief, etc

Faith is an ACTION.  Believing is an ACTION.

ACTION is required for salvation.   Baptists and LDS both believe this.  According too Baptist doctrine, LDS are saved.  

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Faith is an ACTION.  Believing is an ACTION.

ACTION is required for salvation.   Baptists and LDS both believe this.  According too Baptist doctrine, LDS are saved.  

I thought Mormons believed in the "wrong Jesus," or something. 

[Jane_Doe]

31 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I thought Mormons believed in the "wrong Jesus," or something. 

Oh yeah, because Baptist totally believe passing a theology test is required for salvation.   (Hint: that comment was dripping sarcasm).

[HappyJackWagon]

40 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I thought Mormons believed in the "wrong Jesus," or something. 

I've been told that exact thing numerous times.

A number of years ago I was trying to make inroads with the local ministerial alliance. All Christian churches were represented except the LDS church (there were no non-Christian churches in the area).

When I met with the group I was told we could not join because we believe in a different Jesus. I was shocked because it was the first time I'd heard it. It sounded ludicrous but they insisted that LDS concept of Jesus could not be reconciled to the protestant/catholic Jesus. I asked if faith in Jesus was enough to be saved. They said yes. I said I have faith in Jesus. They said "wrong Jesus". I was dumbfounded when I was told they would not participate or allow us to participate in any kind of worship service because we would be praying to a different God. Needless to say, this interaction soured me on the desire to be associated with the ministerial alliance  

That was a bad experience. I've had others that are much better but I still find a considerable wall put up by Baptists. FWIW- Methodists seem much more welcoming to LDS though they still wouldn't consider reciprocity of an LDS baptism. If an LDS wanted to join their church they would require a new baptism even though they wouldn't have that requirement for a Baptist, catholic, etc.

Edited July 27, 2018 by HappyJackWagon

[Meerkat]

10 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I thought Mormons believed in the "wrong Jesus," or something. 

I wouldn't say we worship the "wrong" Jesus.  I believe a case can be made that we worship a "different" Jesus.  Many religions that consider themselves "Christian" begrudge anyone who is not an evangelical using that label.  Our Baptist neighbor believes Mormons are a non Christian cult.  They also believe Catholics are not Christian.  The reason our neighbor gives is that we don't believe in the "Triune God," described as three beings in one entity without body, parts or passions.  We also believe that good works are an important component of salvation.  Our neighbor believes Catholics also suffer from the belief that good works are part of what is required to be a Christian.

There is a lot I don't know for sure about how Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost work together.  It's hard for me to argue with how my life changed when Jesus Christ came into it and my guilt was replaced with joy.  That is why I consider myself a Christian.  The same Spirit that convinced me that Jesus Christ took my sins upon Himself also testifed to my complete satisfaction that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ.  For that reason, I accept the LDS definition of the Godhead as consisting of three separate and distinct individuals.  I worship Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ.  But I do not deny that anyone who's life has been changed for the better by faith in Jesus Christ has every right and motivation to praise Him for their new life and consider themselves Christians.

"38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
            39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
            40 For he that is not against us is on our part."

Mark 9:38-40

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

Oh yeah, because Baptist totally believe passing a theology test is required for salvation.   (Hint: that comment was dripping sarcasm).

I suggest you look a few posts above this one and see the exchange between "Free" and "Meercat" where our Baptist friend confirms there is virtually no consistent Baptist doctrine

Other than "Mormons are deceived" I guess.

[Jane_Doe]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I suggest you look a few posts above this one and see the exchange between "Free" and "Meercat" where our Baptist friend confirms there is virtually no consistent Baptist doctrine

Other than "Mormons are deceived" I guess.

I am aware.  However, we can't address all Baptists that are out there, we can only talk to Free about her/his beliefs.  

[mfbukowski]

23 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I am aware.  However, we can't address all Baptists that are out there, we can only talk to Free about her/his beliefs.  

I find it inconsistent that every congregation picks their own doctrine, but when we do it individually, with our interpretation, we are "following our feelings", apparently a grave error.

 

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I've been told that exact thing numerous times.

A number of years ago I was trying to make inroads with the local ministerial alliance. All Christian churches were represented except the LDS church (there were no non-Christian churches in the area).

When I met with the group I was told we could not join because we believe in a different Jesus. I was shocked because it was the first time I'd heard it. It sounded ludicrous but they insisted that LDS concept of Jesus could not be reconciled to the protestant/catholic Jesus. I asked if faith in Jesus was enough to be saved. They said yes. I said I have faith in Jesus. They said "wrong Jesus". I was dumbfounded when I was told they would not participate or allow us to participate in any kind of worship service because we would be praying to a different God. Needless to say, this interaction soured me on the desire to be associated with the ministerial alliance  

That was a bad experience. I've had others that are much better but I still find a considerable wall put up by Baptists. FWIW- Methodists seem much more welcoming to LDS though they still wouldn't consider reciprocity of an LDS baptism. If an LDS wanted to join their church they would require a new baptism even though they wouldn't have that requirement for a Baptist, catholic, etc.

Having grown up in the Bible Belt, I've had this exact same conversation more times than I can count. 

And I agree with your assessment about Methodists being more amenable than Baptists - though, as you indicate, when push comes to shove they also admit that the theological divide between us is too great for us to be considered authentic Christians.

 

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I find it inconsistent that every congregation picks their own doctrine, but when we do it individually, with our interpretation, we are "following our feelings", apparently a grave error.

 

Oh there's MUCH inconstancy in Protestant doctrines.  Frankly... my thoughts are: I can get annoyed about it, or I can quit worrying about the faceless "they" and instead just interact with the one person in front of me.  

[Atheist Mormon]

On 7/25/2018 at 3:38 PM, Free in Christ said:

 

Thanks for sharing.  I am a member of a Baptist congregation and can confirm there is enormous interest in reaching the LDS community, specifically areas that don't have a local Baptist [or similar] congregation available.  

I plan on making an annual visit (1500+ miles one way) with several other area Baptist congregations to help share what we believe with LDS friends.

We have the same ethic as LDS Christians; while we appreciate LDS values and the many positive elements they possess, we hope to share the truth in love.

I'm sure there is.......Unfortunately that interest vanes very quickly when we turn the tables discussing Bible......Which is very sad, considering your apologists creating this endless topics about Mormonism.....Most of you close your brains when it comes to Bible...Which is very sad.