Free in Christ Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: In my experience, having visited dozen+ Baptist churches and ask the people there to explain to me their beliefs, the two most common/defining (held by >90%) beliefs are 1) local church independence, 2) necessity of a believer's baptism. Now obviously that's not all Baptists, as you yourself here have demonstrated, but in my experience the vast majority hold that. Well, could be that my personal beliefs are the result of my own research and not inherently "baptist". I certainly don't agree with everything I've learned, just the most important things. So, by "necessity of believer's baptism", you bring up a good observation. From what I've seen, baptism is necessary, but not for salvation. It's necessary first step in your new life, new walk and desire to live according to His commandments. These things are "necessary", but completely reactionary. Like wearing a wedding ring - doesn't make me married, but only symbolic.
RevTestament Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 14 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: Do you think it's possible that LDS Christians have misconceptions about baptist beliefs as well? I'd say your synopsis here demonstrates this. I try to obey the commandments, not because my eternal life depends on it, but only because I love the savior. I already have the highest salvation possible. I already have His perfection. Why would I need more? Here's the difference in a nutshell: LDS eternal life is the highest possible salvation obtained only at the very end. The eternal life Jesus Christ offers is the highest possible salvation given as a door prize the moment one believes upon Him. In other words you don't believe the scriptures that we shall be rewarded according to our works...
Free in Christ Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 Just now, Jane_Doe said: 6 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: We've already established that this stance is a gross misrepresentation of both Baptist, LDS, and most others. Belief is an action and 99% of people's theology states that belief is required for salvation. Right, belief is considered by God to be "the work of God" (John 6:29) - His works, not my works.
jkwilliams Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: We've already established that this stance is a gross misrepresentation of both Baptist, LDS, and most others. Belief is an action and 99% of people's theology states that belief is required for salvation. I've always seen grace and works as two halves of the same coin. It's the grace that enables the works, so ultimately it's not the works that save us but the grace behind the works. The idea that salvation is a passive affair is just as foreign to me as the notion that one "earns" one's way into heaven. On a core level, I really don't think the Mormons and, say, the Baptists are that far apart from each other. 3
Free in Christ Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 1 minute ago, RevTestament said: In other words you don't believe the scriptures that we shall be rewarded according to our works... No, I never said that. I don't believe the LDS view of eternal life as a reward of worthy behavior. Bit off topic, but read Rev 20:12-13. Those who are saved and those who are not saved are both judged according to their works. "Eternal life", received during mortality, is what separates those two groups.
jkwilliams Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: No, I never said that. I don't believe the LDS view of eternal life as a reward of worthy behavior. Bit off topic, but read Rev 20:12-13. Those who are saved and those who are not saved are both judged according to their works. "Eternal life", received during mortality, is what separates those two groups. Again, how have you determined that's what those verses mean? I'm not much of a Mormon anymore, but I don't read those verses that way at all. 2
Jane_Doe Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: Right, belief is considered by God to be "the work of God" (John 6:29) - His works, not my works. YOU need to believe in order to be saved. Believing is a verb. Again, LDS and Baptist are the exact same here. Unless you want to delete John 3:16 out of your Bible and claim otherwise. Edited July 26, 2018 by Jane_Doe
Free in Christ Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said: YOU need to believe in order to be saved. Believing is a verb. Again, LDS and Baptist are the exact same here. Unless you want to delete John 3:16 out of your Bible and claim otherwise. Being the judge, God says He doesn't consider our belief to be a work that we do. Romans 4:5-6 clearly contrasts man's belief with man's works. "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" What does "worketh not, but believeth" mean if belief was a work?
Jane_Doe Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: I don't believe the LDS view of eternal life as a reward of worthy behavior. 2 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: Being the judge, God says He doesn't consider our belief to be a work that we do. Misrepresenting LDS beliefs straight to LDS people is not an effective witnessing method or Christ-like. Neither are these word games. I'm sorry if I'm coming of brash here, but it REALLY grinds my nerves when Baptist (who actually do have some awesome beliefs and can be awesome man and women of Christ) throw all that awesomeness in the trash is favor of "evangelizing" via misrepresentation, fear-mongroling, or word-games. Stop it! You and your faith way way better than this!!!! Edited July 26, 2018 by Jane_Doe 1
CA Steve Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 39 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: Why do you believe Moroni's promise is God's test of truth? That's an easy one. Because the Book of Mormon tells us so.
Free in Christ Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 9 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: Misrepresenting LDS beliefs straight to LDS people is not an effective witnessing method or Christ-like. Neither are these word games. I'm sorry if I'm coming of brash here, but it REALLY grinds my nerves when Baptist (who actually do have some awesome beliefs and can be awesome man and women of Christ) throw all that awesomeness in the trash is favor of "evangelizing" via misrepresentation, fear-mongroling, or word-games. Stop it! You and your faith way way better than this!!!! Edited 8 minutes ago by Jane_Doe Hey I'm truly sorry; I certainly didn't mean to come across that way. Not trying to tell anyone here what they personally believe.
Free in Christ Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, CA Steve said: That's an easy one. Because the Book of Mormon tells us so. Right! Same reason we believe the Bible - a choice.
jkwilliams Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 15 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: Misrepresenting LDS beliefs straight to LDS people is not an effective witnessing method or Christ-like. Neither are these word games. I'm sorry if I'm coming of brash here, but it REALLY grinds my nerves when Baptist (who actually do have some awesome beliefs and can be awesome man and women of Christ) throw all that awesomeness in the trash is favor of "evangelizing" via misrepresentation, fear-mongroling, or word-games. Stop it! You and your faith way way better than this!!!! I think it's more misunderstanding LDS beliefs. But yes, telling someone else what they believe is not an effective way to evangelize. 1
jkwilliams Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: Right! Same reason we believe the Bible - a choice. I think he was being sarcastic.
Amulek Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 53 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: Do you think it's possible that LDS Christians have misconceptions about baptist beliefs as well? Is this a trick question? I mean, from the Baptist perspective, there's no such thing as an LDS Christian, so the number of LDS Christians who have misconceptions about Baptist beliefs would have to be zero. Right?
jkwilliams Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Amulek said: Is this a trick question? I mean, from the Baptist perspective, there's no such thing as an LDS Christian, so the number of LDS Christians who have misconceptions about Baptist beliefs would have to be zero. Right? In my experience, many Evangelicals believe that some Mormons are Christians because they have accepted Christ as their Savior and believe in grace alone. I've heard frequently that such people are those Mormons who believe in Christ but reject LDS doctrine. By that measure, being "saved" as a Christian is more about the doctrines you accept than it is about your relationship with the Savior. What always kills me is hearing some earnest Evangelical telling me that my wife, who is the most Christlike and faithful person I know, is going to hell because she is LDS and therefore, according to Evangelicals, believes she has to earn her way into heaven. Somehow, they think this is the right way to get people to accept the religion they're selling. I'll pass. Edited July 26, 2018 by jkwilliams 4
Waylon Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 8 minutes ago, Amulek said: Is this a trick question? I mean, from the Baptist perspective, there's no such thing as an LDS Christian, so the number of LDS Christians who have misconceptions about Baptist beliefs would have to be zero. Right? Well, I had a very real "born-again" experience with Jesus when I was 11 years old. I felt sorrow for my sins, and said a prayer with all my heart that Jesus would please do for me what I cannot do for myself and save my soul. I felt him very clearly accept my prayer, come into my heart, and lift the sins out of my life. All of this happened while I was an active Mormon. I am proof you can be both a Born Again Christian AND a Mormon at the same time. Anyone who says you cannot is wrong. 3
Jane_Doe Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 36 minutes ago, Free in Christ said: Hey I'm truly sorry; I certainly didn't mean to come across that way. Not trying to tell anyone here what they personally believe. Then why do you keep doing this same thing over and over again? It's a disservice to you and everyone else here.
Amulek Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 19 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: In my experience, many Evangelicals believe that some Mormons are Christians because they have accepted Christ as their Savior and believe in grace alone. I've heard frequently that such people are those Mormons who believe in Christ but reject LDS doctrine. By that measure, being "saved" as a Christian is more about the doctrines you accept than it is about your relationship with the Savior. Yeah, many Evangelicals are willing to grant what you might consider an 'as applied' exception for individual Mormons. But the general view is that we aren't Christians - that's why we still need to be "saved."
jkwilliams Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Amulek said: Yeah, many Evangelicals are willing to grant what you might consider an 'as applied' exception for individual Mormons. But the general view is that we aren't Christians - that's why we still need to be "saved." That's been my experience, anyway. I just find it interesting that it seems to boil down to salvation being a function of acceptance of particular doctrines instead of accepting Christ. That just is weird to me. 2
Waylon Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 It is funny - many, many times I have made honest attempts to step out of my beliefs a little, to consider myself as a born-again Christian, fueled by my born-again experience, who happens to be attending Mormon meetings. In the process, I have gotten to know Evangelical Christianity well - better than most Evangelicals. I have been open minded, I have been prayerful, I have read the New Testament over and over and over. And every time, like clockwork, Jesus leads me right back to Mormonism! 1
Amulek Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: That's been my experience, anyway. I just find it interesting that it seems to boil down to salvation being a function of acceptance of particular doctrines instead of accepting Christ. That just is weird to me. Agreed.
mfbukowski Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Free in Christ said: Do you think it's possible that LDS Christians have misconceptions about baptist beliefs as well? I'd say your synopsis here demonstrates this. I try to obey the commandments, not because my eternal life depends on it, but only because I love the savior. I already have the highest salvation possible. I already have His perfection. Why would I need more? Here's the difference in a nutshell: LDS eternal life is the highest possible salvation obtained only at the very end. The eternal life Jesus Christ offers is the highest possible salvation given as a door prize the moment one believes upon Him. Nice, but how do you know that? Your INTERPRETATION of the bible which we interpret differently Which is correct, and how do you KNOW? Back to square one. I don't think you are understanding the importance of answering that question. Everything you say hinges on that first assumption, that the Bible is true because it says that it is and that you have interpreted it correctly, only because you say you have. I have the more sure word of Prophecy. Each of us can be a prophet in their own way regarding personal issues for their own life. The testimony of Christ is the spirit of Prophecy. The only way you know that Jesus is the savior in the first place is in your heart.. not because some semi legendary book says so. Edited July 26, 2018 by mfbukowski 2
mfbukowski Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Waylon said: It is funny - many, many times I have made honest attempts to step out of my beliefs a little, to consider myself as a born-again Christian, fueled by my born-again experience, who happens to be attending Mormon meetings. In the process, I have gotten to know Evangelical Christianity well - better than most Evangelicals. I have been open minded, I have been prayerful, I have read the New Testament over and over and over. And every time, like clockwork, Jesus leads me right back to Mormonism! The problem is they hold onto too much of Catholicism. They accept the Nicene Creed with its idea of consubstantiality. It really just does not make sense. If you are breaking from Catholicism why would you keep half their theology? The Trinity should be a central doctrine of the Bible but it is not. Yes they search around and find a scripture here in a scripture there that possibly describe that kind of thing. But we are talking about essential Doctrine here, the nature of God. It simply isn't there as they believe it is. Edited July 26, 2018 by mfbukowski 3
jkwilliams Posted July 26, 2018 Posted July 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Nice, but how do you know that? Your INTERPRETATION of the bible which we interpret differently Which is correct, and how do you KNOW? Back to square one. I don't think you are understanding the importance of answering that question. Everything you say hinges on that first assumption, that the Bible is true because it says that it is and that you have interpreted it correctly, only because you say you have. I have the more sure word of Prophecy. Each of us can be a prophet in their own way regarding personal issues for their own life. The testimony of Christ is the spirit of Prophecy. The only way you know that Jesus is the savior in the first place is in your heart.. not because some semi legendary book says so. Not to beat a dead horse, but these conversations always remind me of a favorite passage from Terry Eagleton, particularly the bold part: Quote The word "fundamentalism" was first used in the early years of the last century by anti-liberal US Christians, who singled out seven supposed fundamentals of their faith. The word, then, is not one of those derogatory terms that only other people use about you, like "fatso". It began life as a proud self-description. The first of the seven fundamentals was a belief in the literal truth of the Bible; and this is probably the best definition of fundamentalism there is. It is basically a textual affair. Fundamentalists are those who believe that our linguistic currency is trustworthy only if it is backed by the gold standard of the Word of Words. They see God as copperfastening human meaning. Fundamentalism means sticking strictly to the script, which in turn means being deeply fearful of the improvised, ambiguous or indeterminate. Fundamentalists, however, fail to realise that the phrase "sacred text" is self-contradictory. Since writing is meaning that can be handled by anybody, any time, it is always profane and promiscuous. Meaning that has been written down is bound to be unhygienic. Words that could only ever mean one thing would not be words. Fundamentalism is the paranoid condition of those who do not see that roughness is not a defect of human existence, but what makes it work. For them, it is as though we have to measure Everest down to the last millimetre if we are not to be completely stumped about how high it is. It is not surprising that fundamentalism abhors sexuality and the body, since in one sense all flesh is rough, and all sex is rough trade.
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