Baptists Coming Back to Utah to Evangelize Mormons

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Waylon said:

I appreciate evangelical outreach efforts.  However, the above beliefs are not, and cannot, be right.  

The First Century Christians, those taught personally by the apostles and those taught by those taught by the apostles, have made it very clear in their abundant writings that concepts such as eternal security, "optional" baptism, predestination, and "optional" keeping of the commandments are heresies (many having their roots in various gnostic beliefs).  "Saint" Augustine attempted to import said beliefs into Christianity hundreds of years after Christ died, along with all sorts of wrong doctrine (e.g., unbaptized babies cannot go to heaven),  but most of them never stuck until Martin Luther dug Saint Augustine up.

I think Evangelicals are very nice people, but their doctrines are simply historically completely incorrect.  Your plausible choices are Catholicism or Mormonism.

Agreed.  Couldn't give you a rep point yet!

Except I have problems with Catholic Substance Theology- ie: Scholastic Thomism.  But that is probably for elsewhere. 

 

[JAHS]

4 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

We have the same ethic as LDS Christians; while we appreciate LDS values and the many positive elements they possess, we hope to share the truth in love.

But what is truth? If you tell a Mormon you are going to share the truth, most are going to likely take offense to that, as if you are saying they don't have the truth already.
A better thing to say is  "we hope to share what we believe in love".   

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, CA Steve said:

Seems to me that when you have a scripture that says this:

That we are telling people in our church what other church's believe.

 

We can disagree on matters of doctrine while still be kind to others, honestly listening to what they believe, and genuinely loving. 

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Well, personally, I've never even heard of Bill McKeever or seen his movies or books or whatever.  We just share what Jesus Christ has done for us. 

Should we do more??

Well that is a good start, and we could agree on that one, but be ready for this- I already post this earlier here.

THIS is what I do not think you ARE ready for.  So talk to your folks and get a good answer for this one!  I asked you this earlier and you did not respond

I will make it clear.

We believe in the Book of Mormon because we each have a personal revelation that God revealed it- and that revelation comes to "our hearts".

IF that is how you know the Bible is true as well, then you should also be willing to accept the Book of Mormon on the same basis.

If that is NOT how you accept the Bible, you had better be able to answer the question of how you know you are "saved" without the circular argument "because the Bible tells me"

If that is your point- we are back to square one- "Well ok- but how do you know the Bible is true to TELL you you are saved?"

THAT is the problem as I see it.

Or in "altar calls" as Billy Graham did them, the people were moved "in their hearts" to accept Christ.

Same problem- relying on the heart.

We have no problem on relying on the heart- it's the only way God can "verify" things to us personally, and that is scriptural for us in our scriptures.

So good luck!  I am sure there are many out there who do not think about it who will be attracted to "something new" anyway.

Quote

 

Just ask them why they believe the Bible is true in the first place.

They won't have an answer.

Ask they how they know they are "saved" and MAYBE they will say something like "I know in my heart".

Then you tell them what you "know in your heart"

I have never met one who has even thought about why they consider the Bible to be "God's Word" they simply accept it without a reason.

So if any of our Baptist friends want to answer that, I am open to a discussion.

The only possibility is that they accept the Bible for the same reason we accept the Bible AND the Book of Mormon.

You feel it is right in your heart.

Then they will raise the history issue- that Jerusalem exists therefore the Bible is true.

Nope.  Doesn't work

The Bible itself shows that there were many who saw Christ in the flesh and did not believe or who mocked him on the cross.  They had full knowledge of Christ as a historical figure and yet did they accept the atonement in their lives?

Nope.

History doesn't convert anyone to the gospel.

All that is left is a testimony "in your heart"  In the unlikely event they accept that, they have no choice but to shake hands and part friends- which is exactly what they are!

I am glad they are doing good works!  

 

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by mfbukowski

[sunstoned]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

If that's the case what do you have to offer that LDS are lacking?  Just that LDS don't have the same Jesus? Or that we believe in a works based Grace? Because I can't tell you how many videos I've seen that go over this. I'm afraid you guys will be wasting your time. The LDS church will offer much more because they offer exaltation, do you? I am trying to hold onto a belief in Jesus, but because the churches out there can't just get along, or just go on a personal relationship instead of needing everyone to belong to a certain religion because it's the only true one, that's when I want to run. I am currently LDS and enjoying the social part of that, I don't believe in religions, they're manmade. 

I agree with you.  We do the same thing.  We send our army of missionaries out to try to convert members of other churches over to our beliefs.  I believe a Baptist or Lutheran or someone from any other church could pose the same type of question to us.

Edited July 26, 2018 by sunstoned

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

I agree with you.  We do the same thing.  We send our army of missionaries out to try to convert members of other churches over to our beliefs.  I believe a Baptist or Lutheran or someone from any other church could pose the same type of question to us.

True, and I googled and found this website, we have far more missionaries than they do. http://www.reachingbeyondborders.org/statistics.html

[Traela]

2 hours ago, Waylon said:

I appreciate evangelical outreach efforts.  However, the above beliefs are not, and cannot, be right.  

The First Century Christians, those taught personally by the apostles and those taught by those taught by the apostles, have made it very clear in their abundant writings that concepts such as eternal security, "optional" baptism, predestination, and "optional" keeping of the commandments are heresies (many having their roots in various gnostic beliefs).  "Saint" Augustine attempted to import said beliefs into Christianity hundreds of years after Christ died, along with all sorts of wrong doctrine (e.g., unbaptized babies cannot go to heaven),  but most of them never stuck until Martin Luther dug Saint Augustine up.

I think Evangelicals are very nice people, but their doctrines are simply historically completely incorrect.  Your plausible choices are Catholicism or Mormonism.

Actually, Orthodox Christianity is far closer to First Century Christianity than Catholicism.

 

[Waylon]

5 minutes ago, Traela said:

Actually, Orthodox Christianity is far closer to First Century Christianity than Catholicism.

 

touche!

[mfbukowski]

27 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

I agree with you.  We do the same thing.  We send our army of missionaries out to try to convert members of other churches over to our beliefs.  I believe a Baptist or Lutheran or someone from any other church could pose the same type of question to us.

I had two kids serve missions in the South.

Plenty of Baptists there!!

[Jane_Doe]

28 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

I agree with you.  We do the same thing.  We send our army of missionaries out to try to convert members of other churches over to our beliefs.  I believe a Baptist or Lutheran or someone from any other church could pose the same type of question to us.

I find no fault with other churches doing missionary efforts wherein they study/share their beliefs-- in fact I think that's freaking awesome!  May those Baptists and Lutherans get to know their own beliefs deeper and deeper, and may we all learn more about them too!

That's totally different than the meeting going on in St George.

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I had two kids serve missions in the South.

Plenty of Baptists there!!

My husband served in the Jackson Mississippi mission and he and his companion baptised a Baptist minister. It was a big thing, and the poor guy lost his newspaper business when he converted over to the LDS church. It was quite the experience, Spencer and Camilla Kimball invited them to dinner when they visited the mission. My husband has a photo with them, and he is about the same size as Pres. Kimball. It's a sweet photo! 

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My husband served in the Jackson Mississippi mission and he and his companion baptised a Baptist minister. It was a big thing, and the poor guy lost his newspaper business when he converted over to the LDS church. It was quite the experience, Spencer and Camilla Kimball invited them to dinner when they visited the mission. My husband has a photo with them, and he is about the same size as Pres. Kimball. It's a sweet photo! 

My son served there and almost got killed when a truck swerved off the road to hit him, but he just ended up with bruises.  The mirror broke off the truck and he kept part as a souvenir 

No evidence they were Baptists of course. 

They are wonderful people. 

The missionaries were tracting on a Sunday and did a door approach and one of the occupants said - "Nope- we've had enough Jesus for today!"

Cracked me up!!

After about 10 hours of church service on a Sunday I must say I sometimes ALMOST agree with that sentiment!!

[Avatar4321]

If they want to be more effective missionaries, I recommend they study the Book of Mormon. Really study it.

[Free in Christ]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Easy.

Just ask them why they believe the Bible is true in the first place.

They won't have an answer.

Ask they how they know they are "saved" and MAYBE they will say something like "I know in my heart".

Then you tell them what you "know in your heart"

I have never met one who has even thought about why they consider the Bible to be "God's Word" they simply accept it without a reason.

So if any of our Baptist friends want to answer that, I am open to a discussion.

The only possibility is that they accept the Bible for the same reason we accept the Bible AND the Book of Mormon.

You feel it is right in your heart.

Then they will raise the history issue- that Jerusalem exists therefore the Bible is true.

Nope.  Doesn't work

The Bible itself shows that there were many who saw Christ in the flesh and did not believe or who mocked him on the cross.  They had full knowledge of Christ as a historical figure and yet did they accept the atonement in their lives?

Nope.

History doesn't convert anyone to the gospel.

All that is left is a testimony "in your heart"  In the unlikely event they accept that, they have no choice but to shake hands and part friends- which is exactly what they are!

I am glad they are doing good works! 

I'm a Baptist and, even though I'm not disagreeing with much of your observations, I have a slightly different opinion on a few things you said.

May I ask, why do you believe God's test of truth is a feeling in your heart?

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

I'm a Baptist and, even though I'm not disagreeing with much of your observations, I have a slightly different opinion on a few things you said.

May I ask, why do you believe God's test of truth is a feeling in your heart?

Just out of curiosity, what do you believe is God's test of truth?

[RevTestament]

18 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

 

Thanks for sharing.  I am a member of a Baptist congregation and can confirm there is enormous interest in reaching the LDS community, specifically areas that don't have a local Baptist [or similar] congregation available.  

I plan on making an annual visit (1500+ miles one way) with several other area Baptist congregations to help share what we believe with LDS friends.

We have the same ethic as LDS Christians; while we appreciate LDS values and the many positive elements they possess, we hope to share the truth in love.

I grew up Baptist, and also was around for a Baptist convention in SLC some years ago. I have also visited a Baptist church when it was trying to teach about "Mormonism." IMHO Baptists have many misconceptions about LDS. Many things discussed are outside the norm of LDS belief. Other things are not doctrine, but are bantered about on anti sites as LDS beliefs. While some LDS may believe some of these things, many such as myself do not, and yet are still fully LDS.

18 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

So, probably important to explain (for those who may not be aware), Baptist congregations aren't "connected" or affiliated with each other like LDS congregations.  Their views, teachings and, to some degree, doctrinal definitions can vary greatly from congregation to congregation.  They don't have a single set of official doctrines or statements of faith, but they do for the most part agree on the fundamentals (i.e. salvation, etc)      

Joining a Baptist church won't do SQUAT for you in God's eyes.  It's as useless as last week's weather report.  Likewise, baptists believe that being baptized in water doesn't do anything either (unless perhaps if you happen to have a bar of soap).  These are just outward formalities that indicate something within.  We do these things and everything else we do as a reaction to being saved.  Also interesting, obeying the commandments to most baptists (myself included) is completely optional, but typically encouraged.  Obey only if you want to only because you love the Savior.

Very very different indeed...

In other words don't worry about the repeated admonitions in the gospel that we will be judged according to our works? No thanks. I will follow the scriptures on this one rather than the modern evangelical pablum. What exactly do Baptists believe they are saving LDS from then? They don't believe we are saved by Yeshua through our faith in Him and following Him? If we are, then in your own words, "Joining a Baptist church won't do SQUAT for [me] in God's eyes." Thanks for clearing that up. Your need to evangelize me just evaporated. However, if Baptists are wrong about LDS then they are the ones missing out. Nevertheless, thanks for your kind interest.

(Having grown up in Baptist Churches, I also have to disagree with your comments about baptism. It is not reflective of a traditional Baptist approach to the gospel).

Edited July 26, 2018 by RevTestament

[Free in Christ]

15 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Just out of curiosity, what do you believe is God's test of truth?

I believe God's test of truth is and has always been His word revealed to mankind in the Bible.

Jesus Christ quoted the Bible as a source of truth.  The Bereans in Acts 17 wanted to know if what the Apostle Paul was saying was true, so they "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed"

It's really that simple.  If you want to know if something is true, what does God have to say about it in His word?

[mfbukowski]

32 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

I'm a Baptist and, even though I'm not disagreeing with much of your observations, I have a slightly different opinion on a few things you said.

May I ask, why do you believe God's test of truth is a feeling in your heart?

Because everything else is hearsay.

Why would you take any human beings word for anything about God?

 

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

I believe God's test of truth is and has always been His word revealed to mankind in the Bible.

Jesus Christ quoted the Bible as a source of truth.  The Bereans in Acts 17 wanted to know if what the Apostle Paul was saying was true, so they "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed"

It's really that simple.  If you want to know if something is true, what does God have to say about it in His word?

Circular.

The Bible is true because it's true.

You are just assuming that is true and you have no reason to do so.

Millions believe that other books of scripture are also God's word. How do you know who's right?

Have you studied any other religions?

How do you know that Jesus is not a legend?

Edited July 26, 2018 by mfbukowski

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Free in Christ said:

I believe God's test of truth is and has always been His word revealed to mankind in the Bible.

Jesus Christ quoted the Bible as a source of truth.  The Bereans in Acts 17 wanted to know if what the Apostle Paul was saying was true, so they "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed"

It's really that simple.  If you want to know if something is true, what does God have to say about it in His word?

How do you determine what the words in the Bible mean?

[CA Steve]

2 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

I believe God's test of truth is and has always been His word revealed to mankind in the Bible.

Jesus Christ quoted the Bible as a source of truth.  The Bereans in Acts 17 wanted to know if what the Apostle Paul was saying was true, so they "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed"

It's really that simple.  If you want to know if something is true, what does God have to say about it in His word?

I think most LDS would agree with you, except they believe they can ask God directly if something is true, rather than have to read it.

[Free in Christ]

4 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

In other words don't worry about the repeated admonitions in the gospel that we will be judged according to our works? No thanks. I will follow the scriptures on this one rather than the modern evangelical pablum. What exactly do Baptists believe they are saving LDS from then? They don't believe we are saved by Yeshua through our faith in Him and following Him? If we are, then in your own words, "Joining a Baptist church won't do SQUAT for [me] in God's eyes." Thanks for clearing that up. Your need to evangelize me just evaporated. However, if Baptists are wrong about LDS then they are the ones missing out.

(Having grown up in Baptist Churches, I also have to disagree with you comments about baptism. It is not reflective of a traditional Baptist approach to the gospel).

Do you think it's possible that LDS Christians have misconceptions about baptist beliefs as well?

I'd say your synopsis here demonstrates this.  I try to obey the commandments, not because my eternal life depends on it, but only because I love the savior.  I already have the highest salvation possible.  I already have His perfection.  Why would I need more?  

Here's the difference in a nutshell: LDS eternal life is the highest possible salvation obtained only at the very end.  The eternal life Jesus Christ offers is the highest possible salvation given as a door prize the moment one believes upon Him.    

[Jane_Doe]

2 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Do you think it's possible that LDS Christians have misconceptions about baptist beliefs as well?

I'd say your synopsis here demonstrates this.  I try to obey the commandments, not because my eternal life depends on it, but only because I love the savior.  I already have the highest salvation possible.  I already have His perfection.  Why would I need more?  

Here's the difference in a nutshell: LDS eternal life is the highest possible salvation obtained only at the very end.  The eternal life Jesus Christ offers is the highest possible salvation given as a door prize the moment one believes upon Him.    

In my experience, having visited dozen+ Baptist churches and ask the people there to explain to me their beliefs, the two most common/defining (held by >90%) beliefs are 1) local church independence, 2) necessity of a believer's baptism.  Now obviously that's not all Baptists, as you yourself here have demonstrated, but in my experience the vast majority hold that.  

[Free in Christ]

15 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Circular.

The Bible is true because it's true.

You are just assuming that is true and you have no reason to do so.

Why do you believe Moroni's promise is God's test of truth?

16 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Millions believe that other books of scripture are also God's word. How do you know who's right?

Have you studied any other religions?

How do you know that Jesus is not a legend?

There are only two ways and all religions of the world fall into one of these:

Works or Grace.  

If man's works are required for <insert form of heaven>, then the way is the way of works.  This is the broad way since 99% of all the worlds religions require man to do something to reach  <insert form of heaven>.

The way of grace mans no amount of man's works are required.  It is a way of God's grace - He did everything He required for those who choose to believe in Him.  This is a very lonely road and narrow,  with a narrow door.

Only Jesus offers eternal life today as a free gift.  No other religion in the world offers that.

Go ahead - look it up.

[Jane_Doe]

1 minute ago, Free in Christ said:

Why do you believe Moroni's promise is God's test of truth?

There are only two ways and all religions of the world fall into one of these:

Works or Grace.  

If man's works are required for <insert form of heaven>, then the way is the way of works.  This is the broad way since 99% of all the worlds religions require man to do something to reach  <insert form of heaven>.

The way of grace mans no amount of man's works are required.  It is a way of God's grace - He did everything He required for those who choose to believe in Him.  This is a very lonely road and narrow,  with a narrow door.

Only Jesus offers eternal life today as a free gift.  No other religion in the world offers that.

Go ahead - look it up.

We've already established that this stance is a gross misrepresentation of both Baptist, LDS, and most others.  Belief is an action and 99% of people's theology states that belief is required for salvation.