Baptists Coming Back to Utah to Evangelize Mormons

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Waylon said:

If that's the gist it makes no sense for Protestants to accept Catholics and Church of Christ yet exclude Mormons from their self proclaimed definition of Christianity.  Some do exclude all three groups, but most accept Catholics and Church of Christ. 

The semantics are not really worth arguing, though.  I know what I believe and why I believe it.  Protestant teachings regarding salvation by faith alone, eternal security, baptism, and predestination require much wresting of the scriptures, and if there is any lingering doubts, were actually condemned by the First Century Christians (those taught by Paul, John, etc. and those taught by those taught by the apostles) as Gnostic-inspired heresy, and this fact alone would make me more than a little nervous if I held onto Protestant beliefs.  There is apparently a trend of Protestants who have read the writings of these early Church fathers leaving Protestantism for Catholicism over these issues.  I, of course, argue that these early Church fathers were not actually Catholic in their beliefs, but Mormon.  But, I would invite everyone on this site to prayerfully read the writings of the Early Church Fathers along with the Bible (particularly the writings from the first couple of centuries AD, before the apostasy began taking hold and more and more truth was lost) and make up their minds as they will.

Origen.

Rah!

I mean, this guy is as proto LDS as they come in every respect 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen

And theosis:

http://antiochian.org/

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Free in Christ]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Not really a comment on what you say here, just have a question. Do you think the main difference in the LDS and the non-LDS Christian is that the LDS don't automatically believe they are saved by Grace alone? And they lack the faith to believe that it is an automatic gift just by believing it to be so? Instead, the LDS believe it's somewhat a ladder of steps to finally receive the gift? 

I watched something recently about this. An interview with a former LDS turned non-LDS Christian, and this is how they put it. It's centers all on the ability to believe in the free gift, no works, and that is key. 

So IOW, LDS are in trouble for lacking this faith in the free gift vs. the ladder or works? Is this the whole gist of it all? 

I mean, I could never have said it better than this Tacenda.  Thank you for your input!

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, Free in Christ said:

My point is, both LDS and Baptists ultimately believe based upon the exact same thing: choice. 

We read something and simply chose to believe what we read.

Everything grows from the seed of belief.

I agree with that statement.  I think it's a good insight.  Agency does have something to do with it.  Jesus said "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:17  If a man will choose to do His will, and that includes choosing to believe, it puts the odds in his favor that God will speak with him and reveal things to him.

Probably most of us have experienced a time in our lives where our actions didn't align with our beliefs about right and wrong, and we felt more distant from God.  Here is an interesting example from Helaman 6:34-36 that I believe illustrates what Free in Christ said here:

"And thus we see that the Nephites did begin to dwindle in unbelief, and grow in wickedness and abominations, while the Lamanites began to grow exceedingly in the knowledge of their God; yea, they did begin to keep his statutes and commandments, and to walk in truth and uprightness before him.  And thus we see that the Spirit of the Lord began to withdraw from the Nephites, because of the wickedness and the hardness of their hearts.  And thus we see that the Lord began to pour out his Spirit upon the Lamanites, because of their easiness and willingness to believe in his words."

[Free in Christ]

Tacenda has inspired me to draft some additional perspective regarding LDS and Baptist theology.  Let me know if anything seems amiss or questions.

As a Latter-day Christian, should you find yourself thinking "I must be a baptist", I hope this will be useful for you.

[*Side note: There is no such list of articles commonly accepted by all baptist congregations as beliefs can vary from congregation to congregation.  This was created to demonstrate typical baptist perspective for each LDS Article of Faith]

LDS Articles of Faith	Baptist Articles of Faith*
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.	1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.	2 We believe that all are born into sin because of Adam’s transgression and the penalty for sin is physical and spiritual death.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.	3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved through simple belief upon Jesus Christ and His obedience and perfection and not our own worthiness.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.	4 We believe the Gospel is: first, because of sin man is born spiritually dead; second, the penalty of sin is physical and spiritual death; third, Jesus Christ died to pay the penalty for spiritual death; Fourth, believe upon Jesus Christ for His gift of eternal life
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.	5 We believe the Holy Ghost indwells all who are saved the moment they choose to believe, and all who are saved are called of God to preach His gospel.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.	6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, interpretations of tongues, and so forth.	7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, interpretations of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.	8 We believe the Bible to be the perfectly preserved word of God; we do not believe additional revelations are the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.	9 We believe the Bible contains everything God needed to reveal to man.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.	10 We believe that all who received His gift of eternal life during mortality comprise the remnant of His chosen people who are both kings and priests and will rein for evermore as kings and priests with Christ both on this earth, and in the new earth to come.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.	11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God, according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.	12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.	13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

[mfbukowski]

30 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

I mean, I could never have said it better than this Tacenda.  Thank you for your input!

But choosing a belief is a work 

You are contradicting yourself.

So after being saved Christians can't kill people, and still be saved if they believe?

[Free in Christ]

16 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

I agree with that statement.  I think it's a good insight.  Agency does have something to do with it.  Jesus said "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:17  If a man will choose to do His will, and that includes choosing to believe, it puts the odds in his favor that God will speak with him and reveal things to him.

Probably most of us have experienced a time in our lives where our actions didn't align with our beliefs about right and wrong, and we felt more distant from God.  Here is an interesting example from Helaman 6:34-36 that I believe illustrates what Free in Christ said here:

"And thus we see that the Nephites did begin to dwindle in unbelief, and grow in wickedness and abominations, while the Lamanites began to grow exceedingly in the knowledge of their God; yea, they did begin to keep his statutes and commandments, and to walk in truth and uprightness before him.  And thus we see that the Spirit of the Lord began to withdraw from the Nephites, because of the wickedness and the hardness of their hearts.  And thus we see that the Lord began to pour out his Spirit upon the Lamanites, because of their easiness and willingness to believe in his words."

The Savior tells us there are those who do the will of the Father and those that do not do His will.  The rejected of the Savior in Matthew 7 were rejected because they did not do the will of the Father.

So what is this "will of the Father"?

Jesus tells us in John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

The will of the Father is believe and receive everlasting life.  Those who do this pass from death unto life both now (John 5:24) and at the last day.

[Free in Christ]

57 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

But choosing a belief is a work 

You are contradicting yourself.

If belief is a work, as you claim, why does the Bible tells us righteousness is counted upon those who do not work, but believe in Romans 4:5?

If belief is not a work that we do then how am I contradicting myself?

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

So after being saved Christians can't kill people, and still be saved if they believe?

Let me ask you something.  Once born into your family, what thing can you do to no longer be the son of your earthly father?

Not trying to make matters worse, for you but I must ask, why does the Bible tell us that, to God, breaking any one commandment is the same as breaking all commandments?

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10 

[Waylon]

1 minute ago, Free in Christ said:

If belief is a work, as you claim, why does the Bible tells us righteousness is counted upon those who do not work, but believe in Romans 4:5?

If belief is not a work that we do then how am I contradicting myself?

Let me ask you something.  Once born into your family, what thing can you do to no longer be the son of your earthly father?

Not trying to make matters worse, for you but I must ask, why does the Bible tell us that, to God, breaking any one commandment is the same as breaking all commandments?

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10 

Your tombstone should read "Wrest in Peace".

[Anakin7]

From my LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior Archives - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/obey.htm   http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/destiny.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/salvationps.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm    http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/christian.htm 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Anakin7

[mfbukowski]

38 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

If belief is a work, as you claim, why does the Bible tells us righteousness is counted upon those who do not work, but believe in Romans 4:5?

If belief is not a work that we do then how am I contradicting myself?

Let me ask you something.  Once born into your family, what thing can you do to no longer be the son of your earthly father?

Not trying to make matters worse, for you but I must ask, why does the Bible tell us that, to God, breaking any one commandment is the same as breaking all commandments?

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10 

And I guess that means that if you murder someone you are still saved.

Billions of people who have not heard the gospel burn in hell but you are still saved if you murder someone.

Oh

My

Gosh

You have chosen probably the worst chapter in all the Bible to justify your position on faith.

Same chapter, four verses later:

^"14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"

Then later:

^"17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

¹⁸ Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

¹⁹ Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

²⁰ But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

²¹ Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

²² Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

²³ And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

 Andd the rest of the chapter continues in that vein.

... and still you have not provided a reason to believe in the Bible.

When you are in a hole it's time to stop shoveling.

Yes your ministry might catch a few uninformed Mormons. Good for you maybe they will in advance their understanding of Jesus Christ.

 But if you think you're actually combating Mormonism you haven't a clue. 

 All you have left is a trail of unanswered questions.

Edited July 31, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Waylon]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh

My

Gosh

You have chosen probably the worst chapter in all the Bible to justify your position.

Same chapter, four verses later:

^"14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"

Then later:

^"17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

¹⁸ Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

¹⁹ Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

²⁰ But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

²¹ Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

²² Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

²³ And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

 Andd the rest of the chapter continues in that vein.

... and still you have not provided a reason to believe in the Bible.

When you are in a hole it's time to stop shoveling.

Yes your ministry might catch a few uninformed Mormons. Good for you maybe they will in advance their understanding of Jesus Christ.

 But if you think you're actually combating Mormonism you haven't a clue. 

 All you have left is a trail of unanswered questions.

Okay, I just got in trouble for laughing very loudly at work when reading this.  Worst chapter indeed!

Edited July 31, 2018 by Waylon

[MiserereNobis]

On 7/29/2018 at 9:10 AM, mfbukowski said:

Dude!

Where ya been?

I missed arguing with you!! I mean what are friends for??  🙃

I might be headed thru NM soon..

 

I ebb and flow on my posting here. I guess I've been on an ebb  I was still checking the board out from time to time.

If you come on through NM, let me know (you can PM me). If you're in my 'hood, I'll take you out for some hot New Mexican food and then force you to join me for a Latin Mass. Because of your childhood 'brainwashing' I'm guessing you still remember some of the Latin responses  Then we'll go to a brewpub (root b--r for you) and argue about post-modern philosophy and reenact the scene where Wittgenstein brandishes a firepok-r at Popper. I guess you'll get to play the part of Wittgenstein, but I'll get to have the moral high ground 😛

(I think the censor wasn't letting me post, so I had to mess with some words)

Edited July 31, 2018 by MiserereNobis

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And I guess that means that if you murder someone you are still saved.

Billions of people who have not heard the gospel burn in hell but you are still saved if you murder someone.

Oh

My

Gosh

You have chosen probably the worst chapter in all the Bible to justify your position on faith.

Same chapter, four verses later:

^"14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"

Then later:

^"17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

¹⁸ Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

¹⁹ Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

²⁰ But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

²¹ Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

²² Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

²³ And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

 Andd the rest of the chapter continues in that vein.

... and still you have not provided a reason to believe in the Bible.

When you are in a hole it's time to stop shoveling.

Yes your ministry might catch a few uninformed Mormons. Good for you maybe they will in advance their understanding of Jesus Christ.

 But if you think you're actually combating Mormonism you haven't a clue. 

 All you have left is a trail of unanswered questions.

Well MF, we LDS believe murderers can be saved also don't we? But we believe they need to be baptised and their temple work done on top of that. Not saying I side yet with anyone, still figuring it all out, but what do you make of that? And all those people that have abused people sexually? You have killed their innocent spirits, speaking of children especially. 

You do know of Hitler's work done in the temple right? But I think it was taken off the records. Or others that have murdered that had their work done for them? So it's really the denial of the Holy Ghost or Savior that is the real problem or the "unpardonable sin". So isn't it basically the same as the Baptists? In a round about way doesn't it all boil down to that? People that murder will be forgiven in the LDS scheme of things just as the Baptists, you can't deny that can you? And the Baptists believe if you don't accept Jesus as your Saviour then they will go into outer darkness. 

[Free in Christ]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well MF, we LDS believe murderers can be saved also don't we? But we believe they need to be baptised and their temple work done on top of that. Not saying I side yet with anyone, still figuring it all out, but what do you make of that? And all those people that have abused people sexually? You have killed their innocent spirits, speaking of children especially. 

You do know of Hitler's work done in the temple right? But I think it was taken off the records. Or others that have murdered that had their work done for them? So it's really the denial of the Holy Ghost or Savior that is the real problem or the "unpardonable sin". So isn't it basically the same as the Baptists? In a round about way doesn't it all boil down to that? People that murder will be forgiven in the LDS scheme of things just as the Baptists, you can't deny that can you? And the Baptists believe if you don't accept Jesus as your Saviour then they will go into outer darkness. 

Precisely!  If the goal here is to try to understand how Baptist and LDS Christians both view various doctrines, like sin for example.

Baptists don't differentiate one sin as "more sinful" because verses, like James 2:10 clarify God's position on Sin.

Sin is sin is sin.  That means to God, my sin is no better or worse than your sin, or Hitler's sin or anyone else's sins.

Baptists believe all sin is equally sinful and man is born dead spiritually because of Adam's sin.  

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, Free in Christ said:

The Savior tells us there are those who do the will of the Father and those that do not do His will.  The rejected of the Savior in Matthew 7 were rejected because they did not do the will of the Father.

So what is this "will of the Father"?

Jesus tells us in John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

The will of the Father is believe and receive everlasting life.  Those who do this pass from death unto life both now (John 5:24) and at the last day.

Where does Repentance fit into your theology?

According to Merriam-Webster's dictionary, the definition of Repent is  "to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life."  A second definition is to "feel regret or contrition."  A third is "to change one's mind." 

Repentance does not mean to believe in Christ and go on with one's life as if nothing has happened. 

This is from a definition from Easton's Bible Dictionary (that I found looking for a Baptist Bible dictionary:  "Metanoeo, meaning to change one's mind and purpose, as the result of after knowledge.  This verb, with the cognate noun metanoia, is used of true repentance, a change of mind and purpose and life, to which remission of sin is promised.

Evangelical repentance consists of (1) a true sense of one's own guilt and sinfulness; (2) an apprehension of God's mercy in Christ; (3) an actual hatred of sin (Psalms 119:128; Job 42:5-6; 2 co 7:10) and turning form it to God; and (4) a persistent endeavour after a holy life in a walking with God in the way of his commandments."

That also defines the LDS view of repentance that leads to salvation.

So clearly, Free in Christ, there are other Evangelical Christians who view repentance as Mormons do and would not agree with your view that all that is required is belief or, as you said "..obeying the commandments to most Baptists... is completely optional... Obey only if you want because you love the Savior."  That is not scriptural and is, in my opinion, very risky.  Which commandment is too hard anyway?  Thou shalt not steal?  Thou shalt not commit adultery?  Thou shalt not bear false witness?  Your brand of free grace is not, in my opinion, what the Savior meant for His Atonement to do for us.  It was to be an empowering influence to help us truly repent, as explained in Easton's Bible Dictionary.

There is more to His will than believing.  Consider Jesus' words:

"But what think ye?  A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work today in my vineyard.  He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.  And he came to the second, and said likewise.  And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.  Whether of them twain did the will of his father?  They say unto him, The first.  Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.  For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him."  Matt. 21:28-32

Edited July 31, 2018 by Meerkat

[Jane_Doe]

3 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Hello friend,

First, we need to make a few quick clarifications.  Even among LDS your questions are fraught with uncertainty.  For example, what do you mean by "salvation"?  Are you referring to immortality?  What??  

Therefore, when we use the term "salvation", let's agree we're both referring to "eternal life" or the "highest salvation possible" because Baptists (myself included) do not believe in the idea of several types of salvation - there's only one and that is eternal life.

According to the Bible, "belief" is the only thing required for salvation/eternal life.  "Faith" is the physical, tangible side of one's belief.

Simple illustration:  

Answer?

You didn't actually answer my question about what YOU believe.  Let's try this again:

Do you, FIC, indeed believe that faith is the only thing required for salvation?   __________________

If yes, then why do you, FIC< not acknowledge that LDS people are saved?  What other requirement are you adding on besides faith?  Belonging to a Protestant church?  Accepting extra-biblical documents as infallible?  Passing a theology test?  

[Jane_Doe]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Not really a comment on what you say here, just have a question. Do you think the main difference in the LDS and the non-LDS Christian is that the LDS don't automatically believe they are saved by Grace alone? And they lack the faith to believe that it is an automatic gift just by believing it to be so? Instead, the LDS believe it's somewhat a ladder of steps to finally receive the gift? 

I watched something recently about this. An interview with a former LDS turned non-LDS Christian, and this is how they put it. It's centers all on the ability to believe in the free gift, no works, and that is key. 

So IOW, LDS are in trouble for lacking this faith in the free gift vs. the ladder or works? Is this the whole gist of it all? 

Actually majority of non-LDS-Christians likewise believe Christ's grace grows over time in a person, particularly as the person undertakes commitments to Christ.  This Protestant view didn't pop up tinnily the 1500's+ and is still only held by a numerical minority of Christians.  The idea of a "Sinners prayer" and relationship to OSAS is an even more resent idea and held by an even smaller minority of Christians.  

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Free in Christ said:

If belief is a work, as you claim, why does the Bible tells us righteousness is counted upon those who do not work, but believe in Romans 4:5?

If belief is not a work that we do then how am I contradicting myself?

FIC, belief is an action.  You yourself acknowledge this.  To play the "LDS believe a person has to have an action to be saved but Baptists don't" is completely contradicting yourself and misrepresenting everyone's beliefs.  Please STOP doing it-- you have NO reason to misrepresent like this.  Your and your Baptist faith is much better and strong than this.  

[Free in Christ]

43 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Same chapter, four verses later:

^"14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"

Then later:

^"17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

¹⁸ Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

¹⁹ Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

²⁰ But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

²¹ Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

²² Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

²³ And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

 Andd the rest of the chapter continues in that vein.

... and still you have not provided a reason to believe in the Bible.

When you are in a hole it's time to stop shoveling.

How most baptists and mormons interpret James 2 is an area of immense disparity.

Question for you that might help clarify the baptists point of view:

Answer?

[Free in Christ]

17 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Do you, FIC, indeed believe that faith is the only thing required for salvation?

Yes, the faith of Jesus Christ is required for salvation

18 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

If yes, then why do you, FIC< not acknowledge that LDS people are saved?   

Do LDS people claim to be saved by their own faith or the faith of Jesus Christ?

19 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

What other requirement are you adding on besides faith?

None.  Baptists believe they are saved because of Christ's works (Christ's faith), not their own.

20 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Belonging to a Protestant church?

Baptists (myself included) do not believe Church membership will save or help save anyone.

20 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Accepting extra-biblical documents as infallible?

Baptists (myself included) do not accept extra-biblical documents as truth.

21 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Passing a theology test?

No theology test needed...for anything.

[Free in Christ]

20 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

FIC, belief is an action.  You yourself acknowledge this.  To play the "LDS believe a person has to have an action to be saved but Baptists don't" is completely contradicting yourself and misrepresenting everyone's beliefs.  Please STOP doing it-- you have NO reason to misrepresent like this.  Your and your Baptist faith is much better and strong than this.  

Belief is an action verb, but not a work that we do.  Think I've asked you several times how you explain verses that clearly explain how belief is not a work that we do, but you will not respond.

[Free in Christ]

44 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Where does Repentance fit into your theology?

First of all, what I'm saying is not my theology.

Second, "belief" is repentance of unbelief.

Fits right in there.

[Free in Christ]

47 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

According to Merriam-Webster's dictionary, the definition of Repent is  "to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life."  A second definition is to "feel regret or contrition."  A third is "to change one's mind." 

Repentance does not mean to believe in Christ and go on with one's life as if nothing has happened. 

This is from a definition from Easton's Bible Dictionary (that I found looking for a Baptist Bible dictionary:  "Metanoeo, meaning to change one's mind and purpose, as the result of after knowledge.  This verb, with the cognate noun metanoia, is used of true repentance, a change of mind and purpose and life, to which remission of sin is promised.

Evangelical repentance consists of (1) a true sense of one's own guilt and sinfulness; (2) an apprehension of God's mercy in Christ; (3) an actual hatred of sin (Psalms 119:128; Job 42:5-6; 2 co 7:10) and turning form it to God; and (4) a persistent endeavour after a holy life in a walking with God in the way of his commandments."

That also defines the LDS view of repentance that leads to salvation.

Some additional clarification is needed at this point.

We've already explained that God's will for those who do not believe is they believe and receive everlasting life.

What then is God's will for those who DO believe - those who have received His gift of eternal life?

His will for those who believe is "do not sin".  It's really that simple.

The command to obey the commandments is for His children and His alone.

That's why obeying the commandments didn't help the rejected of the Savior in Matthew 7.  They did not first experience the new birth into eternal life, so obeying the commandments did nothing for them.

You must first pass from death unto life before you are capable of obeying the commandments because you love the Savior.  All others obey because they desire eternal life out of their own selfish desire.

[Jane_Doe]

25 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Yes, the faith of Jesus Christ is required for salvation

Do LDS people claim to be saved by their own faith or the faith of Jesus Christ?

None.  Baptists believe they are saved because of Christ's works (Christ's faith), not their own.

Baptists (myself included) do not believe Church membership will save or help save anyone.

Baptists (myself included) do not accept extra-biblical documents as truth.

No theology test needed...for anything.

Then you believe every LDS person is saved, whether or not you're going to admit it. 

18 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Belief is an action verb, but not a work that we do.

The Baptist faith is also better and stronger than these silly word games you're playing.   Please stop it. 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[Free in Christ]

1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

Then you believe every LDS person is saved, whether or not you're going to admit it. 

Tell you what Jane Doe, I'll make you a deal.  If you can show me where LDS theology teaches that anyone can have eternal life today then I'll recant my position and rejoin the LDS faith.

Deal?