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Baptists Coming Back to Utah to Evangelize Mormons


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18 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:
18 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Tell you what Jane Doe, I'll make you a deal.  If you can show me where LDS theology teaches that anyone can have eternal life today then I'll recant my position and rejoin the LDS faith.

Deal?

I'd rather you just answer the questions explaining YOUR faith.  According to YOUR faith, which you just explained (salvation only comes through faith, nothing else attached), every LDS person is saved.

I'm not trying to change your faith at all.  I'm not here to proselytize.  I happily acknowledge your faith, your choice their, and admire much about the Baptist faith. 

"Salvation only comes through faith".

Baptist response: Totally agree.  Salvation only comes through the faith of Jesus Christ, not man's faith (works).

LDS response: Totally agree.  Salvation only comes through man's faith.

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2 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Ha ha!  We just got back from Louisiana and a batch of grandchildren.  I hadn't been big on Monopoly, but played the best game ever with two grandsons.  John said "Grandpa, you're going to like this." He proceeded to trade one of his properties with Grant, giving Grant higher rents at a lower price than he would have paid had he bought it by landing on it.  Then he took the property from Grant and traded it to me, giving me the last railroad I needed to increase my rents.  And he got what he needed to monopolize his properties-- win, win, win.  At the end, John won with more cash and properties than any of us.  And he was so helpful along the way, we were glad to see him win. THATS the way to play the game!  John is eleven.  I told him to talk to his dad.  With his skills, he could start now and do it with real houses.

He will go far.  I recommend some entrepreneurial classes from my husband....though now I think of it he will likely be retired by the time John is free.

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3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

The game of words when talking with Baptists has long since lost its savor. I have always concluded they always have a very shallow understanding of scripture - they don't understand authority; they don't understand the early church; they deny they created their own religion without direction from God - it was not truth restored, but true created by man; they fail to understand why Jesus instructed his apostles to baptize; they fail to understand faith demands actions and fulfill God's commands; works terrify them and they seek to reject any demand for them.

Grew up with them, love them, and understand they are doing as much as they can to follow Christ as they understand it.  They just don't understand it very well. 

What are some examples of Baptists being terrified of works and seeking to reject any "demand" for them?  You don't have to draw on all of the roughly 100 million people who self-identify as Baptists, just those who you know.  Thanks.

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1 hour ago, Gervin said:

What are some examples of Baptists being terrified of works and seeking to reject any "demand" for them?  You don't have to draw on all of the roughly 100 million people who self-identify as Baptists, just those who you know.  Thanks.

My opinion is if you ask any Baptists on this board, or the Baptist neighbors that I know and love, to consider the Evangelical definition of Repentance I posted the other day, and you will be met with obfuscation or silence because, I believe, it lines up with the way Mormons view repentance and good works.  I have been wrong before.  Hopefully, you can correct me.  Here is the definition from Easton's Bible Dictionary:

"Evangelical repentance consists of (1) a true sense of one's own guilt and sinfulness; (2) an apprehension of God's mercy in Christ; (3) an actual hatred of sin (Psalms 119:128; Job 42:5-6; 2 co 7:10) and turning from it to God; and (4) a persistent endeavour after a holy life in a walking with God in the way of his commandments." 

Do you know Baptists who will admit that repentance involves "a persistent endeavor (synonyms: work, effort, trying, etc.) after a holy life in a walking with God in the way of his commandments." 

I fear you will find they believe the only effort worthy of salvation is the effort to believe in Jesus Christ.  Any reference to the multitude of scriptures that encourage righteous living is met with an accusation of "salvation by works," or or other questioning of a person's faith in Jesus Christ.  That's why I no longer engage with trolls such as Free in Christ when I realize they have no interest in dialogue.  They want to poke, poke, poke then poke some more without a substantive response to anything.   They want us to respond to them, then wait for another poke. It is extremely frustrating to waste time engaging with them.  

We lock arms with many religions in their efforts to do good in the world and rejoice with them in faith in Jesus Christ and virtuous living blessing others.  We welcome all Baptists who would like to participate in those efforts.

Edited by Meerkat
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1 hour ago, Gervin said:

What are some examples of Baptists being terrified of works and seeking to reject any "demand" for them?  You don't have to draw on all of the roughly 100 million people who self-identify as Baptists, just those who you know.  Thanks.

Perhaps he was referring to this sort of messaging.  Notice the title of the sermon:  The "Repent and be Baptized" Heresy.

It's painful to see this minister systematically dissing other churches and ministers in the course of his sermon.  It feels unseemly to me; nevertheless, I'm sure he felt he had good reasons--such as they are.

As one who grew up in the buckle of the Bible Belt, I can attest to having known a lot of very good religious folks who were nevertheless also completely conflicted about the whole "repentance" thing.

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25 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Free in Christ, did you see Calm's response to me about the LDS church being more forgiving than the Baptists? She said that at least if someone doesn't believe in this life, they are given another chance in the hereafter when LDS members do their temple work. What do you think of that? In the Baptist faith, don't they believe someone is just going to hell if they don't accept Christ as their personal saviour? I think this reasoning is precisely why you and others go after the LDS specifically. You want them to not go to hell for believing the way they do. 

Thanks, I had overlooked.  Good observation!

15 hours ago, Calm said:

We believe people need to repent, yes, and obey God, yes, whatever their sins.  We also believe that all those who don't hear in this life have a chance to hear the Gospel in the next.

Do baptists believe that?  If not, that makes a difference of billions of souls having the potential to be saved.

Baptists do not believe those who have passed will have a second opportunity to be saved.  Once dead, it's final - grace ends at death for unbelievers.

The doctrine is rooted in the idea that the grace of God will appear to everyone who lives on the earth, and that all mankind will at some point during their lives have the opportunity to either believe or not believe the truth.

The doctrine comes from several passages in the scripture, chiefly Titus 2:11 which says "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men"

It's kindof hard to believe there are "those who didn't hear in this life" if you already believe "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men".

 

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3 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

"Salvation only comes through faith".

Baptist response: Totally agree.  Salvation only comes through the faith of Jesus Christ, not man's faith (works).

LDS response: Totally agree.  Salvation only comes through man's faith.

Once again FIC:

1) refuses to answer questions about his/her own beliefs,

2) fails to address obvious fact that according to his/her own beliefs all LDS are saved.

3) and instead keeps trying to proselytize and 'save' LDS 

4) hence it can be concluded he/she apparently does not actually believe what he/she preaches.

 

I'm sorry FIC, but everything you've done here has shown you to not actually believe what you preach.   I love inter-faith discussion, but this is not that: this is a hypocrite laughably trying to proselytize me.  

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1 hour ago, Free in Christ said:

The doctrine is rooted in the idea that the grace of God will appear to everyone who lives on the earth, and that all mankind will at some point during their lives have the opportunity to either believe or not believe the truth.

So what happens to children that die?

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3 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

So what happens to children that die?

Most baptists would agree that Christ's atonement paid the penalty for all sin, including Adam's transgression, and those who have died not having reached the age where they are capable of making a conscious, willful decision about the truth will be with the Savior when they die.

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16 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Most baptists would agree that Christ's atonement paid the penalty for all sin, including Adam's transgression, and those who have died not having reached the age where they are capable of making a conscious, willful decision about the truth will be with the Savior when they die.

What about those that weren't around when the Bible came about with Jesus's words?

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32 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Most baptists would agree that Christ's atonement paid the penalty for all sin, including Adam's transgression, and those who have died not having reached the age where they are capable of making a conscious, willful decision about the truth will be with the Savior when they die.

What happens to those who never get presented the truth yet who were old enough to choose? (Which seems like the majority of people in history)

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4 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Thanks, I had overlooked.  Good observation!

Baptists do not believe those who have passed will have a second opportunity to be saved.  Once dead, it's final - grace ends at death for unbelievers.

The doctrine is rooted in the idea that the grace of God will appear to everyone who lives on the earth, and that all mankind will at some point during their lives have the opportunity to either believe or not believe the truth.

The doctrine comes from several passages in the scripture, chiefly Titus 2:11 which says "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men"

It's kindof hard to believe there are "those who didn't hear in this life" if you already believe "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men".

 

It is also kind of hard to believe that someone can know of Christ and comprehend his Grace when they have never heard his name, heard of his resurrection, heard of the Atonement, heard of the possibility of being saved.

What about those born with very limited mental ability so they have no language or awareness?

If belief in Christ can be defined as a feeling there is something greater out there, I can see how almost everyone may have the opportunity to learn and believe or not.  Perhaps even there is something greater out there that cares for me.  But that still leaves those of extreme diminished capacity.  How do they believe when they are mentally incapable of belief?

All creation may speak of God, but quite a few people are incapable through no fault of their own of "hearing" that speech....at least in mortality.

Edited by Calm
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5 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Baptists do not believe those who have passed will have a second opportunity to be saved.  

We agree but what about those who never had a first opportunity to be saved.

Once dead, it's final - grace ends at death for unbelievers.

The Bible disagrees with you.

1Pet.4  [6] For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

The doctrine is rooted in the idea that the grace of God will appear to everyone who lives on the earth, and that all mankind will at some point during their lives have the opportunity to either believe or not believe the truth.The doctrine comes from several passages in the scripture, chiefly Titus 2:11 which says "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men"

It's kindof hard to believe there are "those who didn't hear in this life" if you already believe "the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men".

The uninspired theologians teach a false doctrine that ignores what Peter taught == that for some the grace will be manifested in the spirit world where they will be taught the gospel.  Some in this world and others in the next.

This doctrine was taught during the 40 days that Christ visited the apostles after the resurrection, and was restored in our day by a prophet called in our day.  It not only included teaching those who are in the spirit world, but also the ordinance of baptism for the dead.

 

 

Edited by cdowis
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6 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

"Salvation only comes through faith".

Baptist response: Totally agree.  Salvation only comes through the faith of Jesus Christ, not man's faith (works).

LDS response: Totally agree.  Salvation only comes through man's faith.

Is baptism (a work) a requirement for salvation?

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5 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

Perhaps he was referring to this sort of messaging.  Notice the title of the sermon:  The "Repent and be Baptized" Heresy.

It's painful to see this minister systematically dissing other churches and ministers in the course of his sermon.  It feels unseemly to me; nevertheless, I'm sure he felt he had good reasons--such as they are.

As one who grew up in the buckle of the Bible Belt, I can attest to having known a lot of very good religious folks who were nevertheless also completely conflicted about the whole "repentance" thing.

Thank you for this video.  It coincides with what the Baptists here are attempting to preach, and what they ignore or misinterpret in the Scriptures. 

Our Baptist neighbors do the works of Christ because they responded to an alter call, felt the Spirit and followed it.  Some of us obeyed first, and our knowledge of Christ came later.  It can happen either way.  Faith and works are required.  To say works are not required is to ignore the change of behavior that comes when embracing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  Separating them is an unnecessary exercise in hair splitting, judging and semantics.  Most Mormons will recognize it when the Baptists come to procelyte.  Repenting is clearly a change of behavior that manifests itself in good works.

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31 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Thank you for this video.  It coincides with what the Baptists here are attempting to preach, and what they ignore or misinterpret in the Scriptures. 

Our Baptist neighbors do the works of Christ because they responded to an alter call, felt the Spirit and followed it.  Some of us obeyed first, and our knowledge of Christ came later.  It can happen either way.  Faith and works are required.  To say works are not required is to ignore the change of behavior that comes when embracing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  Separating them is an unnecessary exercise in hair splitting, judging and semantics.  Most Mormons will recognize it when the Baptists come to procelyte.  Repenting is clearly a change of behavior that manifests itself in good works.

It’s also interesting to note two things about the scripture cited by FIC—Titus2:11:

1. The King James Version suffers from a faulty translation.  As noted in several versions and commentaries as well, it should read “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.” Heaven knows, we believe that as well as any good Baptist.

2.  What follows in Titus 2:12-14 also demonstrates perfectly what you (and so many others) have made clear up to this point; but what FIC and many other Baptists do not (apparently) believe:

11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.biblegateway.com/passage/%3fsearch=Titus%2b2:11-14&version=ESV&interface=amp

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10 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Ha ha!  We just got back from Louisiana and a batch of grandchildren.  I hadn't been big on Monopoly, but played the best game ever with two grandsons.  John said "Grandpa, you're going to like this." He proceeded to trade one of his properties with Grant, giving Grant higher rents at a lower price than he would have paid had he bought it by landing on it.  Then he took the property from Grant and traded it to me, giving me the last railroad I needed to increase my rents.  And he got what he needed to monopolize his properties-- win, win, win.  At the end, John won with more cash and properties than any of us.  And he was so helpful along the way, we were glad to see him win. THATS the way to play the game!  John is eleven.  I told him to talk to his dad.  With his skills, he could start now and do it with real houses.

Fabulous!

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8 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Thanks, I had overlooked.  Good observation!

Baptists do not believe those who have passed will have a second opportunity to be saved.  Once dead, it's final - grace ends at death for unbelievers.

The doctrine is rooted in the idea that the grace of God will appear to everyone who lives on the earth, and that all mankind will at some point during their lives have the opportunity to either believe or not believe the truth.

Many people over the centuries have never heard of Christ. Further, Yeshua Himself contradicts your belief that you cannot be saved in the spirit world: 

John 5:25  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

***

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

I also refer you to 1 Peter 3 & 4 which also teaches that He went to teach the spirits of the dead. This is one reason why I am no longer Baptist. It did not compute with the scriptures.

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9 hours ago, Calm said:

How can we be disciples without acting/effort...and therefore doing work? 

You can't. That's why when Jesus called his disciples he said, "Come, follow me..." instead of "Hey, recite this salvation prayer and call it good."

 

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1 hour ago, Amulek said:

You can't. That's why when Jesus called his disciples he said, "Come, follow me..." instead of "Hey, recite this salvation prayer and call it good."

 

Oooo

Good one! ;)

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20 hours ago, Tacenda said:

What about those that weren't around when the Bible came about with Jesus's words?

I could speculate about what we haven't been told, but what good is my opinion?  We weren't told everything and likely for a good reason, but we have been given everything we need.

Does that give legitimacy to "additional revelations" that claim to give answers to these and other questions?  

I would say the answer revolves around one's decision about the God's capability to give us His word and to perfectly preserve His word.

Personally, I don't know everything, but I'm ok with that, because I do know the most important thing and He knows me, and one day, when this veil is removed, I'll be able to answer questions like these.

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20 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

What happens to those who never get presented the truth yet who were old enough to choose? (Which seems like the majority of people in history)

I'd say that depends on how you define "the grace of God hath appeared unto all men".  

The rich man in hell didn't have a second chance (that we know of).   They didn't tell him they were awaiting his proxy baptism anyway.

I'd say that IF death was in fact final and there were no second chances, and IF I was going to try to deceive people with a false gospel, then I'd teach them they have a second chance after death - make them feel comfortable about their imperfections.

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19 hours ago, Calm said:

It is also kind of hard to believe that someone can know of Christ and comprehend his Grace when they have never heard his name, heard of his resurrection, heard of the Atonement, heard of the possibility of being saved.

What about those born with very limited mental ability so they have no language or awareness?

If belief in Christ can be defined as a feeling there is something greater out there, I can see how almost everyone may have the opportunity to learn and believe or not.  Perhaps even there is something greater out there that cares for me.  But that still leaves those of extreme diminished capacity.  How do they believe when they are mentally incapable of belief?

All creation may speak of God, but quite a few people are incapable through no fault of their own of "hearing" that speech....at least in mortality.

There are a lot of things about life that we simply do not know or cannot understand, yet we still choose to accept and believe.  For example, how do our minds work?  How do we know what is right and wrong?  Why do we dream or laugh?

Doesn't mean we need additional revelation.

All we know is what we have been told and we must each ponder in our hearts and choose to believe or not believe.  

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