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Baptists Coming Back to Utah to Evangelize Mormons


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1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

I pray in the name of Christ like He instructed us to. You don't seem to have any experience with the Spirit. No wonder you buy into all these modern interpretations.

When I first read the Book of Mormon and accepted the notion that "feelings were the Holy Ghost", all I can tell you is that what I experienced to this day I believe was a supernatural experience.  It was as if the very hand of God was touching my heart, telling me these things were true and confirming that truth within me in a very real, pressing manner expressed by so many of my brothers and sisters.  

This was my testimony of the restored gospel.

I've just redefined the source of those feelings through the reading of the word of God that was already given.

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54 minutes ago, Waylon said:

While I am unsure that Free in Christ is explaining solidly Protestant doctrine, I think the problems he is having here are similar to the problems Baptists will have in Utah.  To a Mormon, Baptist teachings are simply not spiritually compelling.  Their doctrine relies on reducing the interpretation of the scriptures to word games to force them to fit the Protestant agenda.  It conflicts with the teachings of Jesus, Paul, James, the understandings of the First Century Christians, and the billions of Catholics and Eastern Orthodox who have lived since and have read the same Bible, yet come to different conclusions.  There is apparently a movement towards discounting the spiritual in favor of logic, if FIC is to be believed.  Mormons can see what "cheap grace" has done to Christianity in America, how worship has too often become a crass and commercialized experience and discipleship is far too often reduced to saying the saved prayer and doing nothing to live according to the teachings of Christ, and we see the difference like night and day.  Most significantly, apparently unlike many Baptists (if FIC is to be believed), Mormons have experienced the love and miracles of Christ firsthand, and their testimonies are powered by confirmation by the Spirit.  

(And if you believe that God does not have the power to protect sacred prayers by those honestly seeking truth from Him from false answers from Satan, well that's simply unbelievable and opens the door on all sorts of disturbing questions, such as if anything can be trusted (including the Bible and the teachings of Christ), if God really is all-powerful and stronger than Satan, if God really is good and really loves us, etc.  I don't buy this for a second and could never believe in a religion teaching such babble, that Satan can answer the prayers and provide false answers for those praying to Heavenly Father to seek his will).

I'm sorry, but from my view, the case for conversion to Protestantism is simply not compelling.

Edited 31 minutes ago by Waylon

Friends, I can only share with you what happened to me.  While I was once lost I am now found.  I could not see but now I can see all things clearly.  Jesus Christ has given me that life for which I so desperately longed and I have never been the same the moment I believed upon Him.

Being a Baptist didn't do that for me.  Trying to obey the commandments didn't do that for me.  Sincerely trying my best to fulfill my callings and do all that I could do didn't do that for me.  It was only when the Savior gave me life and now I can say like so many others before me "Whereas I was blind, now I see."

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2 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Great observations clarkgoble.  I think your conclusions are perfectly accurate and make sense based upon the assumption you're making about the traditional LDS view of the Bible.  I used to share the same concept but slowly, over time and some intent thought and objective research, see the Bible as being inerrant because God is inerrant and capable of preserving His word.

One of the things that always bothered me about the position was that I had to side with those who clearly opposed my faith to accept my position on the Bible.  You know, the God haters and such.  Why?

Anyway, you did a nice job of articulating the point that I was trying to make.  Thanks! 

So you think the Bible is completely accurate simply because you reasoned God had to make it such? I confess that's some odd logic to my mind. Even if God could do something, it doesn't follow that it does. And in this case you're not even basing the belief on some explicit claim by God to be doing this, but just reasoning that he did. 

And you think that all these people who clearly knew nothing about Jesus actually did because...I guess I'm lost there.

I must be missing something in your reasoning here.

Edited by clarkgoble
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20 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ doesn't mean I have a feeling in my heart.  I have His life within me.  He teaches me truth according to His revealed word every day.

"Saved" was just a decision to believe His words.  That's really it.  From that moment the seed started growing within me and I believe differently about the scriptures I read, how I think, act, etc.

Again, no spooky feelings or anything like that is available...or needed.

Don't be surprised if not very many (if any) Mormons buy into this.  We enjoy receiving regular revelation, having Christ intimately involved in our lives, seeking His confirmation for all truth.  Going from that towards what sounds perilously close to blind faith in the theories and fallible logic of men (especially when said theories depend upon wresting the scriptures at every turn) feels to Mormons like nothing but a giant step backwards, a giant step towards the secular agnosticism that is currently sweeping America culturally, and away from the spiritual.

But if it works for you, to each his own, I guess.

Edited by Waylon
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9 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

So you think the Bible is completely accurate simply because you reasoned God had to make it such? I confess that's some odd logic to my mind. Even if God could do something, it doesn't follow that it does. And in this case you're not even basing the belief on some explicit claim by God to be doing this, but just reasoning that he did. 

And you think that all these people who clearly knew nothing about Jesus actually did because...I guess I'm lost there.

I must be missing something in your reasoning here.

Consider the Bereans in Acts 17.  They "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so".  They simply read the scriptures and reasoned within themselves.  The result?  "many of them believed".

Certainly theirs was a similar predicament as many LDS today.  They felt as if what Paul was saying was strange and seemed wrong.  They even said "thou bringest certain strange things to our ears", called them babblers and said they had some 'new doctrine" they'd never heard before.

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15 minutes ago, Waylon said:

Don't be surprised if not very many (if any) Mormons buy into this.  We enjoy receiving regular revelation, having Christ intimately involved in our lives, seeking His confirmation for all truth.  Going from that towards what sounds perilously close to blind faith in the theories and fallible logic of men (especially when said theories depend upon wresting the scriptures at every turn) feels to Mormons like nothing but a giant step backwards, a giant step towards the secular agnosticism that is currently sweeping America culturally, and away from the spiritual.

But if it works for you, to each his own, I guess.

Again, I think if you consider how you determine the source of feelings you'll see my point.  We don't believe based upon blind faith, but we do trust that what we read is the truth.

LDS trust what they read just like Baptists and other non-members trust what they read to be the truth.

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8 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Consider the Bereans in Acts 17.  They "searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so".  They simply read the scriptures and reasoned within themselves.  The result?  "many of them believed".

Certainly theirs was a similar predicament as many LDS today.  They felt as if what Paul was saying was strange and seemed wrong.  They even said "thou bringest certain strange things to our ears", called them babblers and said they had some 'new doctrine" they'd never heard before.

But if the issue is, as you say, reasoning, then surely it matters if one is reasoning well or not.

You say you're just reasoning but I confess your reasoning doesn't seem to follow the normal rules of reason.

Edited by clarkgoble
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22 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

When I first read the Book of Mormon and accepted the notion that "feelings were the Holy Ghost", all I can tell you is that what I experienced to this day I believe was a supernatural experience.  It was as if the very hand of God was touching my heart, telling me these things were true and confirming that truth within me in a very real, pressing manner expressed by so many of my brothers and sisters.  

This was my testimony of the restored gospel.

I've just redefined the source of those feelings through the reading of the word of God that was already given.

I'm not sure I understand. You mean you feel the source was satan? or yourself? or something else?

If you feel the experience was supernatural, what caused you to doubt it?

I confess I did not have that experience the first time I read the BoM, but then admittedly, I did not sit down to read the whole thing. I joined the Church based on my testimony of the Bible, and my own theological problems with Protestant theology. The teachings of the Church about the scriptures were refreshing, and simply rang true in my heart. I prayed about it, and felt very strongly that it was true. I remember being excited about the Church.

I no longer have that excitement of a child, but I do have a strong testimony of the restored gospel. I like you, but just feel you have allowed yourself to go astray based on misunderstandings of scripture. I am not saying you are headed for hell, but having gone inactive myself, I think I can relate to having questions and doubts. That is really what I believe to be a natural process. I believe Yeshua spoke to this in his parable of the sower and the seed, where some seed were choked by the cares of the world.

You have what I consider to be a beautiful and powerful experience. I believe you can build upon that foundation. I too have had powerful experiences which give me a testimony of the restored gospel. You seem to be asking me to reject them. Are you? I have a testimony of the Bible. I have a testimony of our Savior, Yeshua. What do you believe you are offering me?

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3 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Did the rejected of the Savior not believe these things?  Do you really think they did all they did - works greater than any Mormon - in the name of Jesus Christ and not truly believe in their their hearts  the He was the Savior?

Yet Christ never knew them.  If what you are saying is true, then why were they rejected?  Shouldn't these have been given some form of "salvation"? 

The Savior reveals to us that all mankind has an immortal soul, but only those who believe have life within them.  We can see this clearly in John 5:24

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

What does "hath everlasting life" and "shall not come into condemnation" and "is passed from death unto life" mean to you?

Again the Savior tells us in John 6:53 those who do not have eternal life within them "have not life".

Being immortal doesn't mean you have eternal life.  That's neither what Jesus Christ says nor what LDS theology even teaches.

Rather, there are those who have eternal life (life than never ends) or eternal death (death than never ends).  

Sorry, I have no clue what you are saying.

Life that never ends is immortality. But you making a difference between eternal life and immortality and then you go back and forth had said they are the same. I have no clue what any of these words mean to you. There is no consistent definition for any of these.

And who is the they you are talking about?

Can you even state a definition is differentiating between what you call eternal life and what do you call immortality.?

Eternal life for LDS is the life that God has.

 It is exaltation and creating universes.

That is a far cry from just "immortality".

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3 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Being immortal doesn't mean you have eternal life.  ...

Rather, there are those who have eternal life (life than never ends) or eternal death (death than never ends).  

Can ANYONE make heads or tails of this, please?

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3 hours ago, Waylon said:

While I am unsure that Free in Christ is explaining solidly Protestant doctrine, I think the problems he is having here are similar to the problems Baptists will have in Utah.  To a Mormon, Baptist teachings are simply not spiritually compelling.  Their doctrine relies on reducing the interpretation of the scriptures to word games to force them to fit the Protestant agenda.  It conflicts with the teachings of Jesus, Paul, James, the understandings of the First Century Christians, and the billions of Catholics and Eastern Orthodox who have lived since and have read the same Bible, yet come to different conclusions.  There is apparently a movement towards discounting the spiritual in favor of logic, if FIC is to be believed.  Mormons can see what "cheap grace" has done to Christianity in America, how worship has too often become a crass and commercialized experience and discipleship is far too often reduced to saying the saved prayer and doing nothing to live according to the teachings of Christ, and we see the difference like night and day.  Most significantly, apparently unlike many Baptists (if FIC is to be believed), Mormons have experienced the love and miracles of Christ firsthand, and their testimonies are powered by confirmation by the Spirit.  

(And if you believe that God does not have the power to protect sacred prayers by those honestly seeking truth from Him from false answers from Satan, well that's simply unbelievable and opens the door on all sorts of disturbing questions, such as if anything can be trusted (including the Bible and the teachings of Christ), if God really is all-powerful and stronger than Satan, if God really is good and really loves us, etc.  I don't buy this for a second and could never believe in a religion teaching such babble, that Satan can answer the prayers and provide false answers for those praying to Heavenly Father to seek his will).

I'm sorry, but from my view, the case for conversion to Protestantism is simply not compelling.

What you say here is true and well put, and along with the other comments on this thread, should help FIC understand. 

I came from the Protestant tradition.  There were some who were converted by the Spirit, and you could tell the difference.  I was not one of them.  For the most part, it was a Sunday religion. Christ was never spoken of during the week, save a dinner blessing "Come Lord Jesus, be our guest.  And may these gifts to us be blessed, amen."  

My life changed when the Holy Ghost testified that Jesus died for me, and took my sins upon Himself.  Then we went looking for where He would have us worship.  That same Spirit, the Holy Ghost, confirmed the LDS Church is where God would have us worship.

Perhaps he has not yet had a spiritual experience and is fighting it.  Clearly, from those on this board who's lives have been transformed because God communicated with them by the Spirit.  Isn't it odd that FIC postulates that Satan ansers prayers with spiritual experiences, but you can't trust God to answer prayers by the Spirit.

THIS IS WHAT FREE IN CHRIST SAID:

"Personally I don't know what scholars and theologians teach.  I really don't trust them anyway, so I don't red their opinions."

He doesn't trust my opinions either and tunes me out when I quote a scripture, such as 1 Cor. 2:

"12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
            13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
            14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 

Someday, I believe FIC will have such an experience and understand.  But I have no influence with him here.  He doesn't read my comments or scriptures or consider them.  It's unfortunate, because they are from the same King James Bible he professes to believe.

Edited by Meerkat
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5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Can ANYONE make heads or tails of this, please?

Well, I think Free is saying those in hell will be there forever in some immortal state, but don't have eternal life.

However, our scripture seems to disagree in that it says Satan has power to destroy the body and the soul. Further, Revelation says that hell will give up the dead to be judged in the final judgement. Why would this be if hell is permanent like he envisions? 

Mark even you say that eternal life is exaltation with God. However, those in the telestial kingdom have immortality. Do they have eternal life? You seem to distinguish between the two.

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37 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Can ANYONE make heads or tails of this, please?

Nope.  Makes no sense and is not supported by the abundance of scriptures.  He shoots a lot from the hip.

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44 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Sorry, I have no clue what you are saying.

Life that never ends is immortality. But you making a difference between eternal life and immortality and then you go back and forth had said they are the same. I have no clue what any of these words mean to you. There is no consistent definition for any of these.

And who is the they you are talking about?

Can you even state a definition is differentiating between what you call eternal life and what do you call immortality.?

Eternal life for LDS is the life that God has.

 It is exaltation and creating universes.

That is a far cry from just "immortality".

I agree that eternal life is life that God has. His name YHWH is life. Having Eternal Life I feel means having His life inside us. The issue I have then is for example those in the telestial kingdom. Do they have eternal life? God will not be with them, but they will be ministered to by those in the other kingdoms and by the Holy Spirit. So they will not have the same spiritual life or eternal life as those in the celestial kingdom it seems you are saying. However, I do believe they will have immortality - that is a body that is no longer mortal. So, it seems there may be a difference. Eternal life is a spiritual eternity, and immorality is a physical eternity.

Edited by RevTestament
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1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

But if the issue is, as you say, reasoning, then surely it matters if one is reasoning well or not.

You say you're just reasoning but I confess your reasoning doesn't seem to follow the normal rules of reason.

Edited 1 hour ago by clarkgoble

Well, I do see your point clarkgoble, but keep in mind, nothing about Jesus Christ seems to follow the normal rules of reason.

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1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

I'm not sure I understand. You mean you feel the source was satan? or yourself? or something else?

If you feel the experience was supernatural, what caused you to doubt it?

I confess I did not have that experience the first time I read the BoM, but then admittedly, I did not sit down to read the whole thing. I joined the Church based on my testimony of the Bible, and my own theological problems with Protestant theology. The teachings of the Church about the scriptures were refreshing, and simply rang true in my heart. I prayed about it, and felt very strongly that it was true. I remember being excited about the Church.

I no longer have that excitement of a child, but I do have a strong testimony of the restored gospel. I like you, but just feel you have allowed yourself to go astray based on misunderstandings of scripture. I am not saying you are headed for hell, but having gone inactive myself, I think I can relate to having questions and doubts. That is really what I believe to be a natural process. I believe Yeshua spoke to this in his parable of the sower and the seed, where some seed were choked by the cares of the world.

You have what I consider to be a beautiful and powerful experience. I believe you can build upon that foundation. I too have had powerful experiences which give me a testimony of the restored gospel. You seem to be asking me to reject them. Are you? I have a testimony of the Bible. I have a testimony of our Savior, Yeshua. What do you believe you are offering me?

There was a time in my life when I chose to believe the source of the feelings I felt when I read the Book of Mormon (and other scriptures) to be the Holy Ghost, but I no longer choose to believe those feelings would or could come from the Holy Ghost.  I believe they are a strong delusion or demonic deception for those who turn away from the truth.  

Jesus Christ offers the world His life, His perfection and His works imputed to them today for anyone who will believe upon Him.  

Where LDS theology offers eternal life to all who are worthy as the final reward at the end of time, Jesus Christ offers that life freely as the door prize for believing upon Him.

Do you see the difference?  One savior only promises what the other Savior freely gives.

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1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Sorry, I have no clue what you are saying.

Life that never ends is immortality. But you making a difference between eternal life and immortality and then you go back and forth had said they are the same. I have no clue what any of these words mean to you. There is no consistent definition for any of these.

And who is the they you are talking about?

Can you even state a definition is differentiating between what you call eternal life and what do you call immortality.?

Eternal life for LDS is the life that God has.

 It is exaltation and creating universes.

That is a far cry from just "immortality".

The Savior explained it best when He said "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you."

How can someone be alive, breathing, talking, texting, etc and yet have "no life" in them?

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2 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Well, for clarity, my point is that Baptists and LDS both choose to believe based upon the same thing.  That which we read and chose to believe.

I don't have a confirmational feeling or some other supernatural sign that something is true, but I do have something much more definitive and accurate - the written word of God.

And that is a rather circular argument. It's God's word because you choose to believe it's God's word. I guess that works for you, but as I said, I don't know anyone else who has made such an arbitrary choice to believe in something, let alone become dogmatic about their choice.

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1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Well, I think Free is saying those in hell will be there forever in some immortal state, but don't have eternal life.

However, our scripture seems to disagree in that it says Satan has power to destroy the body and the soul. Further, Revelation says that hell will give up the dead to be judged in the final judgement. Why would this be if hell is permanent like he envisions? 

Mark even you say that eternal life is exaltation with God. However, those in the telestial kingdom have immortality. Do they have eternal life? You seem to distinguish between the two.

That's the LDS definition

"Eternal Life" is the kind of life God has, distinguished from immortality

 

https://www.lds.org/topics/eternal-life?lang=eng

Edited by mfbukowski
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14 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

To me it is a mass of confusion. But then I tend to misinterpret everything. ;)

Passive aggressive 

 Poor you

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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30 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

The Savior explained it best when He said "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you."

How can someone be alive, breathing, talking, texting, etc and yet have "no life" in them?

Whatever.

I'm done going in circles

If anyone else can get an answer out of you let them try.

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2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

It was a joke. Jeez.

Yep, always misinterpreted

Poor you.

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