Jump to content

Baptists Coming Back to Utah to Evangelize Mormons


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Waylon said:

The thing that turns me off of Protestantism (at least as presented by you) is this - it is man made.  It is someone's tortured interpretation of the Bible, without claims of any sort of inspiration to back it up.  In a very real way, it asks us to put blind faith in what Pastor Bill claims the Bible means and to disregard prayerful consideration and inspiration.  Under this reasoning, using fallible human logic, I see no better reason to become a Protestant than a Catholic, a Jehovah's Witness, or a Muslim for that matter.

So, on the one hand, you claim I need to "seriously read the writings of the First Century Christians", but then you tell me that you can't believe what I'm saying because I'm "using fallible human logic".

Fallible human logic is reason I DON'T read the writings of the First Century Christians.  

Just read the words of Jesus Christ.  As-is, you will see they do not support LDS theology in any way, shape or form.

Link to comment
Just now, Free in Christ said:

So, on the one hand, you claim I need to "seriously read the writings of the First Century Christians", but then you tell me that you can't believe what I'm saying because I'm "using fallible human logic".

Fallible human logic is reason I DON'T read the writings of the First Century Christians.  

Just read the words of Jesus Christ.  As-is, you will see they do not support LDS theology in any way, shape or form.

Umm . . . This is a non-sequiteur.  The first century Christians were inspired and righteous men who had experience with the Holy Spirit and you in particular, my dear sir, could learn much about true Christianity from them.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, cdowis said:

The historic Christian church has replaced the apostles and prophets with theologians and philosophers. They debate and argue even over basic salvation doctrine -- grace, free will, baptism, etc. Revelation has been replaced by schools of learning, PhD, and rhetorical skills.

I make note that you are adding words to the Bible and giving your private, personal interpretation.  You then condemn the modern prophets for acting in their callings as prophets, with authority to teach the Gospel, especially when they disagree with the interpretations  of the modern scribes and Pharasees.

Specifically which verse(s) are you referring to which you claim I have my own private interpretation?

I believe exactly what the scripture plainly says.

Our Church has Apostles, Prophets, Teachers, evangelists, Pastors, etc...

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

So, on the one hand, you claim I need to "seriously read the writings of the First Century Christians", but then you tell me that you can't believe what I'm saying because I'm "using fallible human logic".

Fallible human logic is reason I DON'T read the writings of the First Century Christians.  

Just read the words of Jesus Christ.  As-is, you will see they do not support LDS theology in any way, shape or form.

BTW the words of Jesus fully support LDS doctrine.  It is wresting the words of Paul, saying baptism doesn't really mean baptism, enduring to the end doesn't really mean enduring to the end for believers, death doesn't really mean death, where you get into Protestant heresies.  Fallible logic of men in action!

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Okrahomer said:
1 hour ago, Free in Christ said:

LDS may not admit to that (I certainly didn't), but those who are honest will agree they are trying to save themselves

Only in the sense as Paul to the Philippians:  Philippians 2:12  

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Your personal beliefs obviously differ from the statements made by Church Presidents who said members were saving themselves by keeping the commandments.

768760069_LDSSaveThemselves.thumb.JPG.7d135c3108145a6eadf0e7edd511d818.JPG

  1749478083_SavingOurselves_Monson.png.43795f61a0f4f20390ae21bf97c3e49a.png

 

Link to comment
2 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

In Psalm 12:6-7 God promised He would preserve His words perfectly from corruption.

The spirit which you believe would have you believe that God was not capable of keeping his promise.

Now you tell me, who will you believe: that spirit or the word of God?

You are avoiding the plain issue. Then which word is uncorrupted? The Greek Septuagint which your Greek NT quotes? If so, how come your KJV does not have the verse between Psalm 145:13 and 14 that the Septuagint has? Is your KJV the one which is uncorrupted or the Septuagint which it quotes? Tell me. Inquiring minds want to know. Which one did God preserve correctly and how do you know?

Edited by RevTestament
Link to comment

    We save ourselves by Accepting, Accessing, Activating, Grabbing hold of, Obtaining, Receiving, Holding on to The True Grace of Christ by way of True Faith - pistis= Allegiance, Commitment, Confidence, Dedication, Devotion, Discipleship, Faithfulness, Fidelity, Loyalty, Obedience, Trust to The Person and work of Christ Jesus on our behalf. This is done by True Grace Empowerment.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Edited by Anakin7
Link to comment
21 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Your personal beliefs obviously differ from the statements made by Church Presidents who said members were saving themselves by keeping the commandments.

These kinds of debates get boring fast precisely because it ends up hinging not upon what people believe but the way they phrase their beliefs. It seems to me that Baptists, Evangelicals and so forth really get caught up upon whether we say we "try" to be Christlike. Yet to a Mormon that whole attempt is due to the grace of Christ in us that makes us want to be like Jesus. Yet we know that despite that desire given us by God we can't do it on our own and need Christ's grace. Those who don't want to keep the commandments simply aren't feeling God's grace and haven't opened themselves up to it. But because we say "keep the commandments" suddenly our interlocutors say we deny grace. Simply because we don't phrase things the way they'd like.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I'm sorry if i've confused you. I'll try to clarify.  You keep implying and outright saying that LDS teach that people are to learn truth through a feeling in our heart.  Please show where LDS teach that.  

Sure, D&C 8:2, 9:8-9 teach that personal revelation is one of the ways people can learn the truth.

Link to comment
22 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Your personal beliefs obviously differ from the statements made by Church Presidents who said members were saving themselves by keeping the commandments.

768760069_LDSSaveThemselves.thumb.JPG.7d135c3108145a6eadf0e7edd511d818.JPG

  1749478083_SavingOurselves_Monson.png.43795f61a0f4f20390ae21bf97c3e49a.png

 

 

Amen!  I believe what Paul (and the LDS Prophets) teach:  "as ye have always obeyed...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Link to comment
2 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

I believe exactly as Jesus Christ says: the Holy Ghost manifests truth to me by bringing the word of God to my remembrance.

Can Satan answer when we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ?  Think about it, the rejected of the Savior did the miraculous works they did in the name of Jesus Christ, yet Christ never knew them.  Which "Christ" then did these great works?

That says nothing about praying for truth in His name.  Yes, the scripture indicates that we must do the works/will the Father would have us do or we will be counted as the unbelievers. Yet, you eschew works, and believe you will be counted as a believer simply because you say you believe and move your lips- which is exactly what your Savior is speaking to here when He says He will disown people like this.

Quote

LDS theology must always change the words of Jesus Christ.  His words do not match LDS theology in any way, shape or form.  That's why LDS believe His words as long as they are translated correctly, or interpreted correctly or some other reason that ultimately changes what the Savior says to fit into the LDS context.

Jesus said "if a man love me, he will keep my words".

But you do not. I have pointed that out several times. Here is another example - you are not born again unless you are born of the water and the Spirit, but you believe you do not need to be baptized,

Quote

Do you keep His words?  Do you obey His commandments perfectly as He commanded?  

Yet you claim "if we keep His words..."  

Again, you must change what Jesus Christ said to fit LDS theology.

Words, which you do not back up. It is you who are not born again, Mr. I don't need baptism.

Quote

The word of God has revealed all of these things and more.  Again, nowhere in these passages do you see a feeling in the heart equated with a test of truth.

"How do you try the spirits to see if they are of God?"

The Bible tells us in 1 John 4:2 "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God"

I confess that Yeshua came in the flesh, so I am of God, and know that Yeshua has spoken to me. When you felt the stirrings that the BoM was true did you confess in your heart that Yeshua came in the flesh? The BoM says He did, therefore, by this standard it is also of God.

Quote

The personages that appeared to Joseph Smith did not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.  Therefore they were not of God."

See above, as did Joseph Smith in D&C.

Quote

How do you know that it is not you who has been led astray in your reading of scripture?"

Because I believe exactly what the Bible says without trying to change what was said to fit a set of doctrines.  Jesus said it and I believe it exactly as He said it.  I don't need another revelation to clarify what He really meant. 

"Do you believe in the trinity?"

I believe there is one God that exists in three distinct personages.

"Do you accept the Nicene Creed? It says that Yeshua was begotten before all ages/worlds. This is not scriptural. The Bible says that Yeshua was begotten when the Father said to Him, "Thou art my Son. This day I have begotten thee." Do you believe that? I don't think you do. You believe He was never really begotten, because you believe He was always the Son. Nor as a trinitarian do you believe that He will be called the Father, since Trinitarians believe He is immutable, and is not the Father."

Do you believe that you have a conscience?  If so, please explain to me exactly how it works, so that I may know what you are saying is true. 

If you cannot explain it, how can you believe in something that you cannot fully understand?

I do fully understand it. I believe what the Bible says and not what those men of the state Church of Rome said. You now avoid what the Bible plainly says. How convenient for you who proclaim that only you believe what the Bible says. Here let me help you. You will find it in Acts 13 and twice in Hebrews. Nowhere does the Bible say He was begotten before all ages/worlds.

Quote

"So in trying the spirits - those who would have me believe the words of scripture, and those would have me believe those leading me away, whom should I follow? Whom do you follow?"

Don't believe me or anyone else.  Believe what Jesus Christ tells you in His word, the Bible.

I do. You do not. You believe what those minority of bishops said in the Nicean Creed instead. Hebrews 1 adds that Yeshua was adopted as the Son of the Father. Even Tertullian who coined the word trinity said there was a time when the Son was not. Perhaps that is why the state Roman Church which you follow never sainted him even though he became known as the father of Latin orthodoxy. Shall we play more ping pong?

Edited by RevTestament
Link to comment
48 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Our Church has Apostles, Prophets, Teachers, evangelists, Pastors, etc...

OK, your church has apostles and prophets.
So  where can we read their visions and revelations.  I assume many of their revelations have been canonized.

We accept ALL the word of God, including the Bible and modern revelation.     https://www.lds.org/scriptures?lang=eng


 

Edited by cdowis
Link to comment
51 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

You are avoiding the plain issue. Then which word is uncorrupted? The Greek Septuagint which your Greek NT quotes? If so, how come your KJV does not have the verse between Psalm 145:13 and 14 that the Septuagint has? Is your KJV the one which is uncorrupted or the Septuagint which it quotes? Tell me. Inquiring minds want to know. Which one did God preserve correctly and how do you know?

I believe the septuagint is a corrupt Alexandrian text and the septuagint was not used by either Jesus or his Apostles.  

I believe the King James Bible contains the correctly and perfectly preserved word of God and transmission of doctrines for the English speaking people.

Link to comment

FIC tends to twist or ignore every scripture that does not allow that Jesus Christ's Atonement imputes righteousness for wilfully sinful acts.  It does not do that without repentance, in my opinion.

His statements strike me thus, when compared with the demonstrable fruits of the Gospel of Christ:

"...wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
            18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
            19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. (Denying the importance of good behavior and teaching others they don't need to try to obey Christ is a corruption of Christ's message.)
            20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, (FIC will probably say that "escaping" through knowledge of Jesus Christ does not constitute being "saved," by his definition) they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

            21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (IF FIC responds to this, watch how he wrests what this scripture says as plain as plain can be.)
            22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." 2 Peter 2

THIS is LDS Doctrine:

"22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
            23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
            24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was." From James 1

The religion of Jesus Christ is not a religion without works.  It is a religion of Godly action:

"27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." From James 1

FAITH IS MADE PERFECT THROUGH WORKS:

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
            23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
            24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." From James 2

Christ imputes righteousness when we make the effort, or repent and follow Him (as Abraham and others did in James 2).  Abraham's belief was verified by his action. THAT is why righteousness was imputed to him.  This is what James was referring to:

"9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
            10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
            11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
            12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." From Genesis 22

We will fall short in mortality.  That is why the faithful enjoy the gift of repentance and forgiveness.  

Edited by Meerkat
Link to comment
51 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Sure, D&C 8:2, 9:8-9 teach that personal revelation is one of the ways people can learn the truth.

That's not what the CFR was for though.  The CFR is for your statement that LDS church teaches that we must rely on feelings of the heart to know truth.

 

Link to comment
38 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

Amen!  I believe what Paul (and the LDS Prophets) teach:  "as ye have always obeyed...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Well at least we now know what you meant by "Only in the sense as Paul to the Philippians". 

Like I said "LDS may not admit to that (I certainly didn't), but those who are honest will agree they are trying to save themselves"

Sadly, you're never going to be able to save yourself.  Your works cancel out His grace.  Romans 4:4-5 tells us "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."  

The rejected of the Savior in Matthew 7 immediately pointed to their works which they thought would save themselves, yet they were rejected.

The goats in Matthew 25 pointed to their works as evidence they should be allowed to enter the kingdom, yet they were rejected.

If you do not have eternal life then you do not have Jesus Christ within you and nothing you can do will change that. 

You must realize that you have no life in you - you are dead spiritually within and it is only through Jesus Christ that you can have eternal life in you.

Link to comment

FIC has sent me a message privately which I believe should be responded to publicly:

"You said "the words of Jesus fully support LDS doctrine".  The very reason I'm no longer a member is because the words of Jesus Christ do not support LDS doctrine.

Jesus Christ plainly said in numerous sermons "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life".

Can you show me were LDS theology supports this claim made by Jesus Christ that those who believe upon Him have eternal life?  I'll believe you if you can show it to me."

I direct FIC to the entire New Testament.  If read as a harmonious whole without wresting individual passages, it supports the LDS position on faith, eternal security, baptism, predestination, the works!  Catholics agree.  Eastern Orthodox agree.  The First Century Christians, taught by Paul and the apostles, agree.  And most importantly, the Holy Spirit agrees.  I'm sorry, but Protestants simply cannot be correct here.  Their ideas are from Gnosticism, not Christianity.

The problems are when you start yanking single verses out of context and applying "alternative" explanations to said scriptures, then you can quibble about what the definition of "hath" is (assuming such a verse is even translated correctly).

Edited by Waylon
Link to comment
1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

These kinds of debates get boring fast precisely because it ends up hinging not upon what people believe but the way they phrase their beliefs. It seems to me that Baptists, Evangelicals and so forth really get caught up upon whether we say we "try" to be Christlike. Yet to a Mormon that whole attempt is due to the grace of Christ in us that makes us want to be like Jesus. Yet we know that despite that desire given us by God we can't do it on our own and need Christ's grace. Those who don't want to keep the commandments simply aren't feeling God's grace and haven't opened themselves up to it. But because we say "keep the commandments" suddenly our interlocutors say we deny grace. Simply because we don't phrase things the way they'd like.

There are those who do not believe grace is sufficient and those who believe grace is sufficient.

How is that matter of phrase?

The fact is the LDS gospel is impossible; it's as impossible for you as it was for me or anyone else here.  

2 Nephi 25:23 tells us "for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

How is that possible?  IF anyone were actually able to do all they could do, they would be perfect and wouldn't need grace.  

To me, it has more to do with fact, not phrase.

The point Baptists want to make to the LDS community is simple: Jesus Christ offers you that which you seek, but you have to allow salvation to be 100% grace, not your part plus His grace. 

Link to comment
3 minutes ago, Waylon said:

FIC has sent me a message privately which I believe should be responded to publicly:

"You said "the words of Jesus fully support LDS doctrine".  The very reason I'm no longer a member is because the words of Jesus Christ do not support LDS doctrine.

Jesus Christ plainly said in numerous sermons "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life".

Can you show me were LDS theology supports this claim made by Jesus Christ that those who believe upon Him have eternal life?  I'll believe you if you can show it to me."

I direct FIC to the entire New Testament.  If read as a harmonious whole without wresting individual passages, it supports the LDS position on faith, eternal security, baptism, predestination, the works!  Catholics agree.  Eastern Orthodox agree.  The First Century Christians, taught by Paul and the apostles, agree.  And most importantly, the Holy Spirit agrees.  I'm sorry, but Protestants simply cannot be correct here.  Their ideas are from Gnosticism, not Christianity.

The problems are when you start yanking single verses out of context and applying "alternative" explanations to said scriptures, then you can quibble about what the definition of "hath" is (assuming such a verse is even translated correctly).

FIC is sounding just like FormerLDS who was banned.  I would report FIC to the mods and they can check to see if he is a sock puppet. 

Link to comment
6 minutes ago, Waylon said:

I direct FIC to the entire New Testament.  If read as a harmonious whole without wresting individual passages, it supports the LDS position on faith, eternal security, baptism, predestination, the works!  Catholics agree.  Eastern Orthodox agree.  The First Century Christians, taught by Paul and the apostles, agree.  And most importantly, the Holy Spirit agrees.  I'm sorry, but Protestants simply cannot be correct here.  Their ideas are from Gnosticism, not Christianity.

The problems are when you start yanking single verses out of context and applying "alternative" explanations to said scriptures, then you can quibble about what the definition of "hath" is (assuming such a verse is even translated correctly).

Then my challenge to you and everyone else here on this board and Mormondom as a whole should be very simple.  Show me where your church teaches that anyone can have eternal life today as Jesus Christ says we can, and I'll confess and re-join the LDS church.

I mean if the whole new testament says this, then it should be fairly simple right?

Link to comment
6 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

The point Baptists want to make to the LDS community is simple: Jesus Christ offers you that which you seek, but you have to allow salvation to be 100% grace, not your part plus His grace. 

Sounds like Calvinism where humans aren't even free to accept or reject grace. Is that what you intend?

Link to comment

There's no story in the Bible that describes grace better than Barabbas.  Barabbas was a condemned man - a seditious murderer.  He was found guilty and was awaiting execution on the cross by the Roman government. 

Instead of getting what he rightfully deserved, Barabbas was given grace - a full pardon and free gift of life.  

It really didn't matter how good Barabbas was or how much he tried to obey the commandments or what he did to try to perfect himself.  Barabbas was still just as guilty.

Those who believe upon Jesus Christ are given a free pardon from the spiritual penalty of sin.  

I was once a death row inmate.  I was guilty and condemned to eternal death both physically and spiritually.  Being free in Christ means that I have already passed from death unto eternal life because He paid all of my sin debt for me and has given me His life, His perfection and His righteousness.

Grace doesn't save because of what we have done or after all we can do friends. 

Grace saves despite what we have done.

Link to comment
13 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

The point Baptists want to make to the LDS community is simple: Jesus Christ offers you that which you seek, but you have to allow salvation to be 100% grace, not your part plus His grace. 

Your trying to save LDS people shows nothing but your own disbelief of Baptist theology.   Else you would admit that according to your beliefs believe every LDS person is saved (through faith in Christ with nothing else tacked on).  

Edited by Jane_Doe
Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...