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Baptists Coming Back to Utah to Evangelize Mormons


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17 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

It’s also interesting to note two things about the scripture cited by FIC—Titus2:11:

1. The King James Version suffers from a faulty translation.  As noted in several versions and commentaries as well, it should read “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.” Heaven knows, we believe that as well as any good Baptist.

2.  What follows in Titus 2:12-14 also demonstrates perfectly what you (and so many others) have made clear up to this point; but what FIC and many other Baptists do not (apparently) believe:

11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.biblegateway.com/passage/%3fsearch=Titus%2b2:11-14&version=ESV&interface=amp

The "faulty translation" argument is a slippery slope.  Those who claim it have nothing.  Someone's opinion and that's it.

Regarding other versions, if you look hard enough, you can find a version out there that will say just about anything you want it to say.

"Don't like what the Bible says?  Try this version... "  Look at the Thomas Jefferson version - Bible in one hand and scissors in the other.  Don't like what it says?  Just chop it out.

IMO, just shows that people choose to believe whatever they want to believe rather than what God says.

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17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Totally convoluted nonsense.

You are projecting a human beings perception of other other human beings for God's perception of those people.

This would work if God didn't know the content of our hearts. He doesn't look at us and compare our behaviour to others, he compares our heart's intents to others.

We perform good works because we want to become closer to the spirit. Being closer to the spirit brings you closer to God. It has nothing to do with doing things to please God, that has to do with us changing our own hearts.

Man I don't know who taught you Mormonism. Whoever it was really screwed up.

"I'm going to get all dressed up in my good works to show God how great I am."

Uh, I don't think that works.

Like I said God knows they're both models.

The purpose of the firefighter illustration was to demonstrate that we can't become something on the inside by doing something on the outside.

Jesus Christ said these words in John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

He is the only one that can change the heart by giving life.  Only those who have "passed from death unto life" are those who have the change in the heart that is required by the Father.

All others are just trying to change their own hearts in vain because they do not have His eternal life within them.

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On 8/1/2018 at 11:17 AM, Okrahomer said:

Perhaps he was referring to this sort of messaging.  Notice the title of the sermon:  The "Repent and be Baptized" Heresy.

It's painful to see this minister systematically dissing other churches and ministers in the course of his sermon.

Watching the video makes it clear the important things haven't changed much since Joseph Smith's time.

Starting last February, the Church as had an excellent series in the Ensign titled "Saints: The Story of the Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter Days."

Here are some quotations:

"He (Joseph Smith) thought going to church could help him, but he could not settle on a place to worship. The different churches argued endlessly about how people could be free of sin. After listening to these arguments for a while, Joseph was distressed to see people reading the same Bible but coming to different conclusions about its meaning. He believed God’s truth was out there—somewhere—but he did not know how to find it.
            His parents were not sure either. Lucy and Joseph Sr. both came from Christian families and believed in the Bible and Jesus Christ. Lucy attended church meetings and often brought her children with her. She had been seeking the true church of Jesus Christ since the death of her sister many years earlier.
            Once, after falling gravely ill sometime before Joseph’s birth, she had feared that she would die before finding the truth. She sensed a dark and lonely chasm between her and the Savior, and she knew she was unprepared for the next life.
            Lying awake all night, she prayed to God, promising Him that if He let her live, she would find the Church of Jesus Christ. As she prayed, the voice of the Lord spoke to her, assuring her that if she would seek, she would find. She had visited more churches since then, but she had still not found the right one. Yet even when it felt like the Savior’s Church was no longer on the earth, she kept searching, trusting that going to church was better than not.
            Like his wife, Joseph Sr. hungered for the truth. But he felt that attending no church at all was preferable to the wrong one. Following the counsel of his father, Joseph Sr. searched the scriptures, prayed earnestly, and believed that Jesus Christ had come to save the world. Yet he could not reconcile what he felt to be true with the confusion and discord he saw in the churches around him."

"Saints tells the stories of ordinary men and women from the earliest days of the Church until now. It also provides new detail and insight into better-known people and events from Church history. Each story will help you understand and appreciate the Saints who came before you to make the Church what it is today. Like you, they sacrificed to establish Zion, and they had challenges and successes as they sought to understand and implement divine direction. Woven together, their stories—and yours—create the rich tapestry of the Restoration."

Our lives have purpose.  Part of it is diligently seeking God and doing His will.  

James said in chapter 2:19-22"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
            20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
            21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
            22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"

Edited by Meerkat
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15 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Many people over the centuries have never heard of Christ. Further, Yeshua Himself contradicts your belief that you cannot be saved in the spirit world: 

John 5:25  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Who are "the dead" in John 5:25?

Read verse 24:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Those who hear His voice and believe are passed from death ("the dead") unto life.

That means that if you do not have His eternal life within you, that you are one of "the dead".

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23 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

The "faulty translation" argument is a slippery slope.  Those who claim it have nothing.  Someone's opinion and that's it.

Regarding other versions, if you look hard enough, you can find a version out there that will say just about anything you want it to say.

"Don't like what the Bible says?  Try this version... "  Look at the Thomas Jefferson version - Bible in one hand and scissors in the other.  Don't like what it says?  Just chop it out.

IMO, just shows that people choose to believe whatever they want to believe rather than what God says.

So how do you know what God says if the source for everything God says is in the Bible?  Kind of a circular argument. Faulty translation only accounts for some of it.
How do you know what is the best interpretation of what is said in the Bible? 

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47 minutes ago, JAHS said:

So how do you know what God says if the source for everything God says is in the Bible?  Kind of a circular argument. Faulty translation only accounts for some of it.
How do you know what is the best interpretation of what is said in the Bible? 

How do LDS know confirmational feelings are from the Holy Ghost?

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56 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

The purpose of the firefighter illustration was to demonstrate that we can't become something on the inside by doing something on the outside.

Jesus Christ said these words in John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

He is the only one that can change the heart by giving life.  Only those who have "passed from death unto life" are those who have the change in the heart that is required by the Father.

All others are just trying to change their own hearts in vain because they do not have His eternal life within them.

Oh my gosh no

You were doing so well there for a while.

He changes the Heart by giving you a testimony that he is. That's the only way you can know that he is the Christ.

You know that. You just don't want to face it for some reason.

The free gift is knowing that he is what he says he is, in your heart. You know he is the savior and so you believe.

Immortality is a free gift.

Just figure it out logically.

If people who do not know Christ burn forever and Hell then that means they are already immortal.

How can you burn forever without being immortal?

Immortal means they will live forever. Eternal life.

Even Satan has that because he sure is still around.

Living forever has nothing to do with being saved. 

But as usual you are still throwing out questions and never answering anyting.

Your quote scripture as if I don't believe the scriptures.  I read the same scripture that you do and see it totally differently.

Who is right? You don't believe this but God can tell you.

I don't understand how you can go through life. Believe that God can tell you to believe the scriptures.

How could you accept all those Legends just because they're there?

To me it is a mass of confusion.

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8 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

How do LDS know confirmational feelings are from the Holy Ghost?

How do you know blue is blue?

You think he allows Satan who also has eternal life to answer in his  name?

What did Jesus say when people accused him of casting out Devils by the power of Satan?

You are making the same point the Pharisees did.

You pray in the name of Jesus then you think Satan answers?

Good luck with that one when you say anything in the name of Jesus then.

James:

 "If you are in need of Wisdom ask God"

Oops.

It might be Satan.

Not the best argument in the world.

Man I really need to talk to your pastor. If he's teaching you this stuff, he better do better.

Edited by mfbukowski
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1 minute ago, Free in Christ said:

How do LDS know confirmational feelings are from the Holy Ghost?

No one can know that by scientific means; but we hope the feelings we get are the confirmations of the Holy Ghost. 
It's definitely a more unique and different experience compared to a simple emotional response. 
We make a choice to follow it and hope we are right. It helps to have latter-day prophets and other scripture to help validate things.
Combine all this with scripture study and I don't know of a better recipe to learn the truth. 

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2 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

I'd say that depends on how you define "the grace of God hath appeared unto all men".  

The rich man in hell didn't have a second chance (that we know of).   They didn't tell him they were awaiting his proxy baptism anyway.

I'd say that IF death was in fact final and there were no second chances, and IF I was going to try to deceive people with a false gospel, then I'd teach them they have a second chance after death - make them feel comfortable about their imperfections.

Well we don't know what they told the rich man when he got there. (I take the comments as a general one - not specific to a particular person) Since I don't accept NT inerrancy I assume there are things that didn't make it into the NT when the texts were compiled. Paul of course mentions in passing baptism for the dead. Not everyone takes the Mormon view on that, but it is scriptural.

More or less you're just saying that because grace appeared to all people you interpret that as everyone knowing enough to accept or reject Christ even if it's pretty clear most people never even heard the name Christ let alone any doctrines of Christianity. That's a traditional problem for the tradition you're espousing IMO. 

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2 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

The "faulty translation" argument is a slippery slope.  Those who claim it have nothing.  Someone's opinion and that's it.

Regarding other versions, if you look hard enough, you can find a version out there that will say just about anything you want it to say.

"Don't like what the Bible says?  Try this version... "  Look at the Thomas Jefferson version - Bible in one hand and scissors in the other.  Don't like what it says?  Just chop it out.

IMO, just shows that people choose to believe whatever they want to believe rather than what God says.

I take from your comments that you believe the King James version is 100% inerrant.  You may have said that earlier, and I missed it.  If I did miss it, I apologize.  I will just point out that I did not make the "faulty translation" idea up.  If you're at all interested, you will see that more than one Bible commentator refers to it here

At the end of the day though, I appreciate that you believe in and follow after Jesus Christ.  While it is apparent that what you have chosen to believe is somewhat different from what I have chosen to believe; I do not personally think that it matters all that much in the big scheme of things.  What is important (I think) is that we pay attention to the verses that follow Titus 2:11.  If we are both being taught by the Savior how to live Godly and disciplined lives, and we are both "zealous of good works"; then I "choose to believe" that it will be well with both of us at the last day.

Edited by Okrahomer
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3 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Depends on how you interpret the scripture.

If I told you to jump for joy, would you interpret that to mean jump because you have joy, or jump in order to get joy?

Interesting.

So you admit that the scholars and theologians cannot agree on a basic salvation question..  That is why God called a prophet in our day,  as Paul tells us

Eph 4 [11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
[13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
[14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine.....

Th church of Christ must have living prophets, as Peter tells us

2 Peter 1 [20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
[21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God [prophets] spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Basically Peter is telling us that the whole issue of an inerrant Bible is moot until we have an inerrant INTERPRETATION  of the Bible.

Edited by cdowis
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4 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Who are "the dead" in John 5:25?

Read verse 24:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Those who hear His voice and believe are passed from death ("the dead") unto life.

That means that if you do not have His eternal life within you, that you are one of "the dead".

No, it means that you go from this dead mortal state to a state of eternal life ie you bypass hell. He said what He was referring to in verse 

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

I noticed you left that one out, because it does not agree with your interpretation - unless you believe everyone walking around is in the grave. No, my friend. He is not talking just about the spiritually dead, but the physically dead who are in the grave. How come they hear His voice? When did they hear His voice? When His body was in the tomb.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; [He went to the spirit world while in the spirit without His body.]

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

This is not talking about live people, but dead people back to the days of Noah. But keep straining at those gnats. ;) 

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2 hours ago, cdowis said:

Interesting.

So you admit that the scholars and theologians cannot agree on a basic salvation question..  That is why God called a prophet in our day,  as Paul tells us

Eph 4 [11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
[13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
[14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine.....

Th church of Christ must have living prophets, as Peter tells us

2 Peter 1 [20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
[21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God [prophets] spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Basically Peter is telling us that the whole issue of an inerrant Bible is moot until we have an inerrant INTERPRETATION  of the Bible.

No, I think it means the practice of having the scriptures interpreted for us is dubious. We should all be open to the spirit.

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6 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Depends on how you interpret the scripture.

If I told you to jump for joy, would you interpret that to mean jump because you have joy, or jump in order to get joy?

    How did the N.T Prophets, Apostles, Saints,  Interpret it ?, not with the question you propose. By The Way Water Baptism was The Gate by which one entered the new covenant and was Saved and also showed they accepted the Sacrifice of Christ Jesus on there behalf. The evidence is there if one is in tune with The Holy Ghost/Spirit and with Holy Writ contained in The New Testament/Covenant.

The Atonement It is the Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In his Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrrior

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18 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh my gosh no

You were doing so well there for a while.

He changes the Heart by giving you a testimony that he is. That's the only way you can know that he is the Christ.

You know that. You just don't want to face it for some reason.

The free gift is knowing that he is what he says he is, in your heart. You know he is the savior and so you believe.

Did the rejected of the Savior not believe these things?  Do you really think they did all they did - works greater than any Mormon - in the name of Jesus Christ and not truly believe in their their hearts  the He was the Savior?

Yet Christ never knew them.  If what you are saying is true, then why were they rejected?  Shouldn't these have been given some form of "salvation"? 

18 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Immortality is a free gift.

Just figure it out logically.

If people who do not know Christ burn forever and Hell then that means they are already immortal.

How can you burn forever without being immortal?

Immortal means they will live forever. Eternal life.

Even Satan has that because he sure is still around.

Living forever has nothing to do with being saved. 

But as usual you are still throwing out questions and never answering anyting.

Your quote scripture as if I don't believe the scriptures.  I read the same scripture that you do and see it totally differently.

Who is right? You don't believe this but God can tell you.

I don't understand how you can go through life. Believe that God can tell you to believe the scriptures.

How could you accept all those Legends just because they're there?

To me it is a mass of confusion.

The Savior reveals to us that all mankind has an immortal soul, but only those who believe have life within them.  We can see this clearly in John 5:24

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

What does "hath everlasting life" and "shall not come into condemnation" and "is passed from death unto life" mean to you?

Again the Savior tells us in John 6:53 those who do not have eternal life within them "have not life".

Being immortal doesn't mean you have eternal life.  That's neither what Jesus Christ says nor what LDS theology even teaches.

Rather, there are those who have eternal life (life than never ends) or eternal death (death than never ends).  

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19 hours ago, JAHS said:

No one can know that by scientific means; but we hope the feelings we get are the confirmations of the Holy Ghost. 
It's definitely a more unique and different experience compared to a simple emotional response. 
We make a choice to follow it and hope we are right. It helps to have latter-day prophets and other scripture to help validate things.
Combine all this with scripture study and I don't know of a better recipe to learn the truth. 

Thank you for clarifying.

We both believe the truth by reading, choosing to believe and hoping that what we just read is the truth.

No emotional response.  No confirmational feelings.  Nothing spooky or supernatural.

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18 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Well we don't know what they told the rich man when he got there. (I take the comments as a general one - not specific to a particular person) Since I don't accept NT inerrancy I assume there are things that didn't make it into the NT when the texts were compiled. Paul of course mentions in passing baptism for the dead. Not everyone takes the Mormon view on that, but it is scriptural.

More or less you're just saying that because grace appeared to all people you interpret that as everyone knowing enough to accept or reject Christ even if it's pretty clear most people never even heard the name Christ let alone any doctrines of Christianity. That's a traditional problem for the tradition you're espousing IMO. 

Great observations clarkgoble.  I think your conclusions are perfectly accurate and make sense based upon the assumption you're making about the traditional LDS view of the Bible.  I used to share the same concept but slowly, over time and some intent thought and objective research, see the Bible as being inerrant because God is inerrant and capable of preserving His word.

One of the things that always bothered me about the position was that I had to side with those who clearly opposed my faith to accept my position on the Bible.  You know, the God haters and such.  Why?

Anyway, you did a nice job of articulating the point that I was trying to make.  Thanks! 

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18 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

What is important (I think) is that we pay attention to the verses that follow Titus 2:11.  If we are both being taught by the Savior how to live Godly and disciplined lives, and we are both "zealous of good works"; then I "choose to believe" that it will be well with both of us at the last day.

Question for you.  The Savior tells us in John 6:40 "this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life"

Does this verse apply to those who have already seen and believe upon the Son or to those who do not already believe?

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4 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Great observations clarkgoble.  I think your conclusions are perfectly accurate and make sense based upon the assumption you're making about the traditional LDS view of the Bible.  I used to share the same concept but slowly, over time and some intent thought and objective research, see the Bible as being inerrant because God is inerrant and capable of preserving His word.

One of the things that always bothered me about the position was that I had to side with those who clearly opposed my faith to accept my position on the Bible.  You know, the God haters and such.  Why?

Anyway, you did a nice job of articulating the point that I was trying to make.  Thanks! 

I guess it depends on what you mean by "inerrant." Some Evangelicals I know believe that inerrancy means that the meaning of God's words has been preserved enough to be relied on, which is a reasonable belief. Others of a more fundamentalist stripe say that every word of the Bible (usually the KJV) is "God-breathed" and is exactly what God revealed, verbatim. As someone with a background in textual criticism, I have a hard time with the second approach, and it has nothing to do with my having previously been a believing Mormon.

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17 hours ago, cdowis said:

Interesting.

So you admit that the scholars and theologians cannot agree on a basic salvation question..  That is why God called a prophet in our day,  as Paul tells us

Eph 4 [11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
[13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
[14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine.....

Th church of Christ must have living prophets, as Peter tells us

2 Peter 1 [20] Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
[21] For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God [prophets] spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Basically Peter is telling us that the whole issue of an inerrant Bible is moot until we have an inerrant INTERPRETATION  of the Bible.

Personally I don't know what scholars and theologians teach.  I really don't trust them anyway, so I don't red their opinions.

Since there are no private interpretations of scripture, why not choose to believe what the Bible says at leave it at that?

If Jesus Christ says it then that is exactly what was meant for us to believe.  Works for me!

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Just now, Free in Christ said:

Personally I don't know what scholars and theologians teach.  I really don't trust them anyway, so I don't red their opinions.

Since there are no private interpretations of scripture, why not choose to believe what the Bible says at leave it at that?

If Jesus Christ says it then that is exactly what was meant for us to believe.  Works for me!

It's not that easy. Everyone from Mormons to Catholics to Lutherans to Jehovah's Witnesses thinks they "believe what the Bible says and leave it at that." 

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17 minutes ago, Free in Christ said:

Thank you for clarifying.

We both believe the truth by reading, choosing to believe and hoping that what we just read is the truth.

No emotional response.  No confirmational feelings.  Nothing spooky or supernatural.

Now you are sounding like a Jehovah's Witness. I didn't know the spirit was "spooky."

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Unless one is open to the Spirit, He cannot teach you. I wonder if the first apostles thought the Comforter was "spooky?" 

All you have is words translated by translators. Without confirmation of their original intent, you do not really know the intent with which they were written. No wonder you end up adopting these modern ideas about eternal life, salvation and grace.

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