Jump to content

Baptists Coming Back to Utah to Evangelize Mormons


Recommended Posts

23 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Yep, always misinterpreted

Poor you.

I don't think you've ever misinterpreted me, other than not recognizing a silly joke as just a silly joke. I won't lose any sleep over it. Calm was right about self-deprecating humor, and this is a good reminder to avoid it.

Edited by jkwilliams
Link to comment
1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Well, I think Free is saying those in hell will be there forever in some immortal state, but don't have eternal life.

However, our scripture seems to disagree in that it says Satan has power to destroy the body and the soul. Further, Revelation says that hell will give up the dead to be judged in the final judgement. Why would this be if hell is permanent like he envisions? 

Mark even you say that eternal life is exaltation with God. However, those in the telestial kingdom have immortality. Do they have eternal life? You seem to distinguish between the two.

We only know what was revealed.  Death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14).  These are places of eternal destruction and death.  A death that never ends.

Consider the rich man in hell.  He didn't cease to exist but was in a state of continuous death - eternal death.

He is alive, yet at the same time, dead.

I believe Satan uses every means available to him to trick people into leaving this world without ever receiving the life that Jesus Christ feely offers.

The Bible says "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son hath not life" (1 John 5:12)

Eternal life is life with God just as 1 John 5:12 says: He is within those who have the Son and we are in Him.  

With that in mind, consider verse 20

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."

Link to comment
On 7/26/2018 at 3:56 AM, mfbukowski said:

My son served there and almost got killed when a truck swerved off the road to hit him, but he just ended up with bruises.  The mirror broke off the truck and he kept part as a souvenir 

No evidence they were Baptists of course.  ;)

They are wonderful people. 

The missionaries were tracting on a Sunday and did a door approach and one of the occupants said - "Nope- we've had enough Jesus for today!"

Cracked me up!!

After about 10 hours of church service on a Sunday I must say I sometimes ALMOST agree with that sentiment!!

It was probably my step-son's ex-father-in-law.  He was a baptist minister, and told my son that if he ever saw a pair of Mormon elders bicycling down the road while he was driving in his pickup, and he thought he could get away with it, he would run them down.

Link to comment
Just now, Stargazer said:

It was probably my step-son's ex-father-in-law.  He was a baptist minister, and told my son that if he ever saw a pair of Mormon elders bicycling down the road while he was driving in his pickup, and he thought he could get away with it, he would run them down.

A friend of mine was run off the road in Alberta, though there was no indication of the driver's religion, just a clear dislike of Mormons.

Link to comment
On 7/27/2018 at 1:41 AM, jkwilliams said:

My sister converted to Judaism. 

If I weren't LDS, I'd love to be a Jew!  All those feasts and celebrations -- I'd even be happy to keep Kosher, come to that.  Not that fond of pork, or seafood either.

But I'd have to be a Messianic Jew, because there's no escaping that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Eternal God, and my Savior.

Link to comment
Just now, Stargazer said:

If I weren't LDS, I'd love to be a Jew!  All those feasts and celebrations -- I'd even be happy to keep Kosher, come to that.  Not that fond of pork, or seafood either.

But I'd have to be a Messianic Jew, because there's no escaping that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the Eternal God, and my Savior.

She's much happier in Judaism. Her husband wasn't particularly observant before they married, but she told him she wouldn't convert unless they were going to raise their children in the religion faithfully. 

Link to comment
3 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Friends, I can only share with you what happened to me.  While I was once lost I am now found.  I could not see but now I can see all things clearly.  Jesus Christ has given me that life for which I so desperately longed and I have never been the same the moment I believed upon Him.

Being a Baptist didn't do that for me.  Trying to obey the commandments didn't do that for me.  Sincerely trying my best to fulfill my callings and do all that I could do didn't do that for me.  It was only when the Savior gave me life and now I can say like so many others before me "Whereas I was blind, now I see."

I'm happy you now have a more solid relationship Christ.  Are you still going to deny when an LDS person likewise has a solid relationship with Christ?

Link to comment
6 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

There was a time in my life when I chose to believe the source of the feelings I felt when I read the Book of Mormon (and other scriptures) to be the Holy Ghost, but I no longer choose to believe those feelings would or could come from the Holy Ghost. 

Why? Do you believe the Holy Spirit does not communicate with us? How do you think He would? Did you not pray in the name of Jesus Christ? What is that Christ instructed us to do when we pray?

Quote

I believe they are a strong delusion or demonic deception for those who turn away from the truth.  

Hmm. I wonder if Paul felt that way when He saw Christ, and those with him did not. Where would we be if he dismissed his vision as being from Satan? I believe the Bible. If that is what you are saying is the truth, I have not turned away from it. In fact I love the Bible, but I do realize men did not always get the translation process just right.

Quote

Jesus Christ offers the world His life, His perfection and His works imputed to them today for anyone who will believe upon Him.  

Where LDS theology offers eternal life to all who are worthy as the final reward at the end of time, Jesus Christ offers that life freely as the door prize for believing upon Him.

Do you see the difference?  One savior only promises what the other Savior freely gives.

No, I don't really see the difference. I think you are straining at gnats. The Hebrews regularly spoke in present tense for things that were pertaining to the future. This  was carried over from the days when they spoke Hebrew. You do not have immortality. Most who believe in Christ will die. If you are following Christ you may have a promise of eternal life, so back in those days they said you have eternal life. I have felt the life of Christ in me. If you had that you could heal whomever. You could do the works of Christ. No offense, but you are not that far along friend. You offer a narrow interpretation of a handful of verses in the NT, and that's it. And to retain that narrow interpretation you are willing to dismiss what witness the Holy Spirit has given you. You seem like you would also dismiss my own experiences as the works of Satan as well. I find it sad that people have so little faith that they believe my prayers to the Father and Christ were answered by Satan.

Link to comment

FreedomInChrist beware of Once Saved Always Saved - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/destiny.htm  Must be Worthy of Jesus - http://www.eternallifeblog.com/worthy-jesus/ 

Believing In/on Jesus is the Same as Obeying Him - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/believing.htm 

Must and Must not's to enter The Kingdom of God and His Christ -http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm 

Are You A Real Christian ? - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/christian.htm 

Beware of Apostasy - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/everyNTbook.htm 

Beware of Spiritual Tragedies Between Initial and Final Salvation - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/tragedies.htm 

From Initial to Final Salvation - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/initial.htm 

Your Future Sins Are Not already Forgiven - http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/futuresins.htm 

The Atonement It is the Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Link to comment
13 hours ago, Free in Christ said:

Personally I don't know what scholars and theologians teach.  I really don't trust them anyway, so I don't red their opinions.

Since there are no private interpretations of scripture, why not choose to believe what the Bible says at leave it at that?

If Jesus Christ says it then that is exactly what was meant for us to believe.  Works for me!

Clearly we are not speaking in a common language. 
Let's try it again.  Is baptism necessary for salvation  == what does the  Bible say?

Edited by cdowis
Link to comment
On 8/2/2018 at 7:50 PM, RevTestament said:

No, I think it means the practice of having the scriptures interpreted for us is dubious. We should all be open to the spirit.

Is baptism  necessary for salvation? 
OK, then the spirit should give everyone the same answer, should it not?  Or do we follow the words of Paul in Eph 4: 11-14  -- living apostles and prophets.

Edited by cdowis
Link to comment
5 minutes ago, cdowis said:

Is baptism  necessary for salvation? 

It is certainly necessary for eternal life. It seems it is also necessary for salvation as well, but I am not positive.

Quote

The spirit should give everyone the same answer, should it not?

Ideally, but sometimes I believe it is just pointing us in the right direction. Sometimes individuals may not be ready for the same answer as another. However, the spirit won't lie. Nevertheless, it must serve, and only reveal things a times specified by the Father.

 

Link to comment
10 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

She's much happier in Judaism. Her husband wasn't particularly observant before they married, but she told him she wouldn't convert unless they were going to raise their children in the religion faithfully. 

I believe all who strive to, and teach others to obey the Commandments will be blessed.  Christ said do the thing, know the doctrine.  They may not be Christian.  But if they are doing the thing, they will be, one day.  Obedience brings peace and confidence in God.  Pay tithing, watch the blessings flow.  Keep the Sabbath, the blessings will come.  Pray and study, same thing.  Invite the poor that are cast out to your home for a meal (Isaiah 58) see promises for that.  Such obedience invites the Spirit.  I believe it can also give people confidence they are on the right track--- even non- Christians, non LDS..  And I believe many of them are.  The missing pieces will come in the Spirit world for them, along with the Temple ordinances.  See D & C 138.

To a large degree, I believe the Jews are right, inasmuch as rhey encourage people to live a Godly life.  Love God and do good to your neighbor.  That's what I believe.

Edited by Meerkat
Link to comment

I think I have made this observation previously in other threads. 

FreeInChrist is bringing into the discussion theological premises which serious Baptist, Calvinist, and Reformed theologians have developed over the past 500 or so years. The ideas are more coherent and cogent than is being presented here.

The problem is, with all respect due to FiC, it appears that s/he has picked up these talking-points, this narrative,  at second hand.  With little or no formal training either in philosophy or in systematic theology. 

Several of the participants in this thread DO have more formal training in, at least, philosophy and dialectic discussion. This makes it easy to get FiC tied up into a pretzel.  

There are probably other underlying issues,  such as different and deeply embedded value assumptions,  which might bog FiC down more than s/he realizes.  

Anyhow,  the Baptists coming to SLC may or may not be more sophisticated than FiC: my experiences suggest that it is rare for Evangelical apologetics ministries to really understand the beliefs of their target audience.  There are usually just enough disconnects to limit the appeal of their attempted outreaches. 

Link to comment
2 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

FreeInChrist is bringing into the discussion theological premises which serious Baptist, Calvinist, and Reformed theologians have developed over the past 500 or so years. The ideas are more coherent and cogent than is being presented here.

If that is true, then someone please bring it.  Make the discussion interesting rather than aggravating.  Help us understand.  As Brigham Young said, "If you have truth, I want to embrace it as my own."  And "All truth belongs to the Lord's Church," or words to that effect.

I talk about my Baptist neighbors, whom I sincerely love. I would have much to learn from them if they would share their insights with me.  But they are so bent on questioning motives and attacking our faith and foundations that we rarely get anywhere.  If my wife and I have had an interesting scripture study, she or I would love to discuss it with them.  We agree on so many things.  I know we do.   But when I try to engage in that sort of discussion, their eyes glaze over and their words and body language communicate we are spiritual adversaries. I love it when they want to share their scripture study or other insights with me.

Finally, after years of visiting over the fence, our neighbor acknowledged "Well, I can see that YOU are a Christian.  But you don't know what those other Mormons believe."  That, when there is so much in the Scriptures to learn and share about the Grace of Jesus Christ, and how far He was and is willing to go for us.  It's all right there in the scriptures.  Words mean things.  If you don't agree with "things spiritually discerned," then address it with your knowledge and insights from the scriptures and even anecdotal evidence from your life.  Teach me so I can understand.  Come, let us reason together.  Please.

If we are just dancing around semantics, which it seems to me we are in very many cases, let's break through that barrier so we can share knowledge and arrive at truth.  There is much to discuss about the things we learn from tragedy and sacrifice, things that sanctify us-- all people including Moslems, Jews, Christians and others regardless of their religious stripe.  There is much to learn about repentance and living a virtuous life.  There is much to love and learn.  I know many people are "True Believers" in their cause.  Great!  Share your passion.  But at least try to be pleasant, engaging and reasonable.  Wouldn't it be great to understand what each of us believes and why we believe it?

In many ways, my Baptist neighbors are the kind of Christians I want to be.  But judgmental, looking down my nose with critical eyes at people, regardless of belief, who were made in God's image, is not one of them.  I enjoy dialogue-- finding points of agreement, clearing up misunderstandings.  Why always be on the attack?  I don't get it.  Do you?

Link to comment
2 hours ago, Meerkat said:

If that is true, then someone please bring it.  Make the discussion interesting rather than aggravating.  Help us understand.  As Brigham Young said, "If you have truth, I want to embrace it as my own."  And "All truth belongs to the Lord's Church," or words to that effect.

I talk about my Baptist neighbors, whom I sincerely love. I would have much to learn from them if they would share their insights with me.  But they are so bent on questioning motives and attacking our faith and foundations that we rarely get anywhere.  If my wife and I have had an interesting scripture study, she or I would love to discuss it with them.  We agree on so many things.  I know we do.   But when I try to engage in that sort of discussion, their eyes glaze over and their words and body language communicate we are spiritual adversaries. I love it when they want to share their scripture study or other insights with me.

Finally, after years of visiting over the fence, our neighbor acknowledged "Well, I can see that YOU are a Christian.  But you don't know what those other Mormons believe."  That, when there is so much in the Scriptures to learn and share about the Grace of Jesus Christ, and how far He was and is willing to go for us.  It's all right there in the scriptures.  Words mean things.  If you don't agree with "things spiritually discerned," then address it with your knowledge and insights from the scriptures and even anecdotal evidence from your life.  Teach me so I can understand.  Come, let us reason together.  Please.

If we are just dancing around semantics, which it seems to me we are in very many cases, let's break through that barrier so we can share knowledge and arrive at truth.  There is much to discuss about the things we learn from tragedy and sacrifice, things that sanctify us-- all people including Moslems, Jews, Christians and others regardless of their religious stripe.  There is much to learn about repentance and living a virtuous life.  There is much to love and learn.  I know many people are "True Believers" in their cause.  Great!  Share your passion.  But at least try to be pleasant, engaging and reasonable.  Wouldn't it be great to understand what each of us believes and why we believe it?[/Quote]

In Japan they have a type of garden called "Miegakure". It means "conceal and reveal". As one strolls the garden, some features are discoved while other features are lost from sight. At no point in the Miegakure garden can one see all of the features.

In one particular such garden,  there are fifteen boulders: but, no matter where you stand, you can count only fourteen.  Moreover,  the shadows and light, the patterns of minerals in the stones, the very shapes of  the rocks create an experience unique to that particular vantage. 

One problem with interfaith dialogue is that adherents of each faith are strongly attached to the particular perspective they have achieved,  and none are unwilling to move to a place where they can see another's. 

And somehow, the Internet suppresses empathy and reflective listening so that genuine dialogue is harder to achieve. 

Quote

In many ways, my Baptist neighbors are the kind of Christians I want to be.  But judgmental, looking down my nose with critical eyes at people, regardless of belief, who were made in God's image, is not one of them.  I enjoy dialogue-- finding points of agreement, clearing up misunderstandings.  Why always be on the attack?  I don't get it.  Do you? [/Quote]

They don't feel they are on the attack. They see themselves as recuers on "the ship so sound even God cannot sink it". But . . . .the Titanic is sinking,  they are trying to get you into a lifeboat, and you are in utter denial.  

They think you're on fire. They think you don't realize you are on fire. They are trying to extinguish the flames consuming you before it's too late and you are beyond recovery. 

Link to comment
5 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

They don't feel they are on the attack. They see themselves as recuers on "the ship so sound even God cannot sink it". But . . . .the Titanic is sinking,  they are trying to get you into a lifeboat, and you are in utter denial.  

They think you're on fire. They think you don't realize you are on fire. They are trying to extinguish the flames consuming you before it's too late and you are beyond recovery. 

If we were able to have the attitude of the Savior on the road to Emmaus discussing these things with anyone, we may have the same experience Peter and the other disciple did when they said one to another, "Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?"   

I think the principle is the same for Baptists or Mormons.  We need to learn how to reason together with love and empathy on both sides.

Edited by Meerkat
Link to comment
4 hours ago, Meerkat said:

If that is true, then someone please bring it.  Make the discussion interesting rather than aggravating.  Help us understand.  As Brigham Young said, "If you have truth, I want to embrace it as my own."  And "All truth belongs to the Lord's Church," or words to that effect.

I talk about my Baptist neighbors, whom I sincerely love. I would have much to learn from them if they would share their insights with me.  But they are so bent on questioning motives and attacking our faith and foundations that we rarely get anywhere.  If my wife and I have had an interesting scripture study, she or I would love to discuss it with them.  We agree on so many things.  I know we do.   But when I try to engage in that sort of discussion, their eyes glaze over and their words and body language communicate we are spiritual adversaries. I love it when they want to share their scripture study or other insights with me.

Finally, after years of visiting over the fence, our neighbor acknowledged "Well, I can see that YOU are a Christian.  But you don't know what those other Mormons believe."  That, when there is so much in the Scriptures to learn and share about the Grace of Jesus Christ, and how far He was and is willing to go for us.  It's all right there in the scriptures.  Words mean things.  If you don't agree with "things spiritually discerned," then address it with your knowledge and insights from the scriptures and even anecdotal evidence from your life.  Teach me so I can understand.  Come, let us reason together.  Please.

If we are just dancing around semantics, which it seems to me we are in very many cases, let's break through that barrier so we can share knowledge and arrive at truth.  There is much to discuss about the things we learn from tragedy and sacrifice, things that sanctify us-- all people including Moslems, Jews, Christians and others regardless of their religious stripe.  There is much to learn about repentance and living a virtuous life.  There is much to love and learn.  I know many people are "True Believers" in their cause.  Great!  Share your passion.  But at least try to be pleasant, engaging and reasonable.  Wouldn't it be great to understand what each of us believes and why we believe it?

In many ways, my Baptist neighbors are the kind of Christians I want to be.  But judgmental, looking down my nose with critical eyes at people, regardless of belief, who were made in God's image, is not one of them.  I enjoy dialogue-- finding points of agreement, clearing up misunderstandings.  Why always be on the attack?  I don't get it.  Do you?

My experience is a lot of very devout Baptists, and other Christian Fundamentalists, bring into a discussion certain preconceived notions (sometimes consciously, sometimes subconsciously) that they have been fed their entire lives via anti-Mormon propaganda: 1) it is impossible for a Mormon to be a Christian; 2) Mormons are a cult; 3) Mormons are brainwashed; 4) Mormons cannot reason properly, either because they are brainwashed or because they are unsaved.  These notions color the conversations that many Christian Fundamentalists have with Mormons - they spew their party line, and if you, as a Mormon, disagree or bring up an alternative argument (e.g., "why did the beliefs of the first century Christians look so different than Protestant beliefs") rather than reason or stop to consider that they could indeed themselves be wrong or engage in meaningful dialogue, they just raise their voices and repeat the same thing, as if Mormons will spontaneously drop their beliefs and become Baptists if yelled at loudly enough or something.

I don't have this problem when discussing religion with Presbyterians, Methodists, most Pentecostals, Anglicans, Catholics, etc.  My experience has shown me that most members of these Churches, even devout members, do not bring the above preconceived notions to the table, and consequentially it is much easier to dialogue with them.  One of my best friends was Presbyterian, and I remember discussing predestination with him and actually telling HIM Bible verses supporting predestination!   Conversations with these denominations is always far more productive and educational.

Maybe, if Baptists really are worried about the souls of Mormons, they should hire the Methodists to do a blitz on Utah instead?

Edited by Waylon
Link to comment
On 7/25/2018 at 7:23 PM, mfbukowski said:

Agreed.  Couldn't give you a rep point yet!

Except I have problems with Catholic Substance Theology- ie: Scholastic Thomism.  But that is probably for elsewhere.  ;)

 

Always Pagan religions and hermeticism.  Oh, and Buddhism.

Link to comment
19 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

She's much happier in Judaism. Her husband wasn't particularly observant before they married, but she told him she wouldn't convert unless they were going to raise their children in the religion faithfully. 

Good for her!  If you're going to be something, be it.  "What e'er thou art, do well thy part" and all that.

Link to comment
On 8/3/2018 at 4:25 PM, Jane_Doe said:

I'm happy you now have a more solid relationship Christ.  Are you still going to deny when an LDS person likewise has a solid relationship with Christ?

I have never denied the fact that most LDS Christians have a genuine and sincere relationship with a being they identify as "Christ".

The rejected of the Savior in Matthew performed all of the works they did in the name of Jesus Christ.  Do you think they wouldn't have claimed to have "a solid relationship with Christ"?

Yet He never knew them because they did not first do the will of the Father.

Link to comment
On 8/3/2018 at 9:26 PM, RevTestament said:
On 8/3/2018 at 2:17 PM, Free in Christ said:

There was a time in my life when I chose to believe the source of the feelings I felt when I read the Book of Mormon (and other scriptures) to be the Holy Ghost, but I no longer choose to believe those feelings would or could come from the Holy Ghost. 

Why? Do you believe the Holy Spirit does not communicate with us? How do you think He would? Did you not pray in the name of Jesus Christ? What is that Christ instructed us to do when we pray?

The Savior tells us how the Holy Spirit communicates with us and it's not a feeling in the heart.  John 14:26 tells us the Holy Spirit will bring the words of Jesus Christ to our rememberance and that is how we know truth - the word of God, not a feeling in the heart.

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

According to Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit brings His words that I have read to my remembrance and guides me in all truth. 

On 8/3/2018 at 9:26 PM, RevTestament said:
Quote

I believe they are a strong delusion or demonic deception for those who turn away from the truth.  

Hmm. I wonder if Paul felt that way when He saw Christ, and those with him did not. Where would we be if he dismissed his vision as being from Satan? I believe the Bible. If that is what you are saying is the truth, I have not turned away from it. In fact I love the Bible, but I do realize men did not always get the translation process just right.

We are commanded to try the spirits because there are false prophets that teach a false gospel, a false Christ and have a false spirit.

Satan's method is always the same and has never changed since the Garden of Eden: Get mankind to doubt the word of God.  

If you truly did believe the Bible as you claim, then you can't also believe it has been corrupted.  You believe parts of the Bible or believe the LDS interpretation of the Bible, but you cannot say that you "believe the Bible" if you believe it is corrupted, mistranslated and contains errors.  

On 8/3/2018 at 9:26 PM, RevTestament said:
Quote

Jesus Christ offers the world His life, His perfection and His works imputed to them today for anyone who will believe upon Him.  

Where LDS theology offers eternal life to all who are worthy as the final reward at the end of time, Jesus Christ offers that life freely as the door prize for believing upon Him.

Do you see the difference?  One savior only promises what the other Savior freely gives.

No, I don't really see the difference. I think you are straining at gnats. The Hebrews regularly spoke in present tense for things that were pertaining to the future. This  was carried over from the days when they spoke Hebrew. You do not have immortality. Most who believe in Christ will die. If you are following Christ you may have a promise of eternal life, so back in those days they said you have eternal life. I have felt the life of Christ in me. If you had that you could heal whomever. You could do the works of Christ. No offense, but you are not that far along friend. You offer a narrow interpretation of a handful of verses in the NT, and that's it. And to retain that narrow interpretation you are willing to dismiss what witness the Holy Spirit has given you. You seem like you would also dismiss my own experiences as the works of Satan as well. I find it sad that people have so little faith that they believe my prayers to the Father and Christ were answered by Satan.

So, why not just admit what you really believe?

Jesus Christ said "He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" and you choose to believe "He that believeth on me does not yet have everlasting life".

This points back to the previous statement and reveals the true identity of the LDS spirit.  The fact is, the LDS spirit wants you to doubt the word of God.  It's  been mistranslated, Jesus didn't actually mean that, His words were merely just "figures of speech" or taken out of context.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...