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Baptists Coming Back to Utah to Evangelize Mormons


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11 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

           He was Saved by a earthly corrupt grace, not a True Grace Empowered Heavenly Grace, I do not know what FIC was thinking.

He was thinking linearly. These modern evangelical types take the words very literally rather than in the context with which they were used back in the day. So they believe that believing Yeshua means to acknowledge him, and confess him with their lips. Then they think they automatically have eternal life, despite what Yeshua Himself says about those who do works in His name, but do not know Him, and the many times that He says what it means to believe on Him. They think Paul in their interpretation knows better than Yeshua what He means. This shallow type of thinking is unfortunately very characteristic of modern evangelicalism. I think it partially comes out of the TV evangelist era. What they think they have to offer is a mystery. An hour of singing praise music? Been there. It doesn't appeal to me. I believe in learning of Him. The saddest thing to me is that FormerLDS, acknowledges the powerful witness he received of the Spirit regarding LDS scripture, and yet no longer trusts it. How can you reach someone like that? They reject the Spirit's witness of the truth. Therefore, nothing you can do can really help them unless that changes. He will continue to espouse his narrow interpretation of scripture, no matter how many times you show him otherwise.

Edited by RevTestament
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Rev Testament I agree with your observation.  I thought you and any other LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Sons [Daughters] of Thunder Kryptonian Warriors would enjoy this link I recently came across by a non LDS Professor/Scholar/Theologian. Enjoy.  https://www.jasonstaples.com/bible/paul-never-says-by-faith-alone/ 

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Edited by Anakin7
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1 hour ago, Anakin7 said:

Rev Testament I agree with your observation.  I thought you and any other LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Sons [Daughters] of Thunder Kryptonian Warriors would enjoy this link I recently came across by a non LDS Professor/Scholar/Theologian. Enjoy.  https://www.jasonstaples.com/bible/paul-never-says-by-faith-alone/ 

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Interesting article.  Thanks for the link!

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On 8/7/2018 at 5:49 AM, Free in Christ said:

I have never denied the fact that most LDS Christians have a genuine and sincere relationship with a being they identify as "Christ".

The rejected of the Savior in Matthew performed all of the works they did in the name of Jesus Christ.  Do you think they wouldn't have claimed to have "a solid relationship with Christ"?

Yet He never knew them because they did not first do the will of the Father.

"Do the will of the father."

Uh, sounds like "Works" to me.

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2 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

Rev Testament I agree with your observation.  I thought you and any other LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Sons [Daughters] of Thunder Kryptonian Warriors would enjoy this link I recently came across by a non LDS Professor/Scholar/Theologian. Enjoy.  https://www.jasonstaples.com/bible/paul-never-says-by-faith-alone/ 

The Atonement It is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

Yes, evangelists get caught up in the English translation as being exact, when often it does not really carry the best meaning or original intent. If you read Paul as a whole, he does not espouse giving up the commandments. He was merely speaking against the Jewish thinking that they were saved by doing the works of the commandments/law. That thinking gets translated by evangelists as being saved by faith only, which as that article points out, is not a phrase ever used by Paul.

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4 minutes ago, AgnostiMorm said:

How is this position really any different than sinful mormons thinking they are actually going to be "saved by grace, after all they can do"?

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

Hi, and welcome to the forum. We (or at least I) view grace as the mode or means of our salvation. It does not excuse us from trying to do our best, but makes up for our shortcomings. This is why if we say we believe without acting like we believe, we may not be saved. His grace calls us to do our best. Grace is not an excuse for us to sit on our bums, but is a gift to us which makes up for our falling short of perfection. These words (like gift) get thrown around differently by evangelicals.

Otherwise, I'm not sure I really understand your point. This is the reason why Yeshua said things like many will do works in my name, but I will tell them depart from me, I never knew you. Free grace would dictate that Yeshua would save them anyway, rather than tell them to go away, but He doesn't because He is looking at their heart which is hypocritical - they are doing things for the wrong reasons - to look good - like the TV evangelists which claim to heal people up on the stage, but using props and trickery. Are they saved by grace even though they are doing many things in His name? I don't think so. I think they are headed for hell. 

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15 minutes ago, AgnostiMorm said:

"Shortcomings"?

Sounds like a more palatable term "ungodliness".

Right?

Sins. Might include natural faults like selfishness, etc.

How do you talk about the "sin" of failing to love your neighbor? How far does loving your neighbor compel you to go? Shortcomings is a more inclusive word. Whether we have failed to love someone enough to be a sin can be a gray area.

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4 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

Rev Testament I agree with your observation.  I thought you and any other LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Sons [Daughters] of Thunder Kryptonian Warriors would enjoy this link I recently came across by a non LDS Professor/Scholar/Theologian. Enjoy.  https://www.jasonstaples.com/bible/paul-never-says-by-faith-alone/ 

It's also worth noting (and touched briefly upon in that blog post) that the New Perspectives on Paul movement tends to see most references to faith and faithfulness as tied to Christ and not the believer. That is it's Christ's faithfulness that justifies us not our faithfulness.

Edited by clarkgoble
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30 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

It's also worth noting (and touched briefly upon in that blog post) that the New Perspectives on Paul movement tends to see most references to faith and faithfulness as tied to Christ and not the believer. That is it's Christ's faithfulness that justifies us not our faithfulness.

I appreciate the explanation (and understand that these are not your personal beliefs), but man oh man does that sound like wresting the scriptures!

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18 minutes ago, Waylon said:

I appreciate the explanation (and understand that these are not your personal beliefs), but man oh man does that sound like wresting the scriptures!

There's actually pretty compelling reasons in the text to think that. Many of N. T. Wright's writings are about this. His Paul And The Faithfulness Of God is a must read even if you ultimately disagree with him. (Obviously those who adopt Calvinism tend to reject him since they go against their theological tradition) To get more of a feel for how Wright and those in that camp tend to respond to critics and more traditional Lutheran and Calvinist theologies, his Paul and His Recent Interpreters is worth reading.

Edited by clarkgoble
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8 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Yes, evangelists get caught up in the English translation as being exact, when often it does not really carry the best meaning or original intent. If you read Paul as a whole, he does not espouse giving up the commandments. He was merely speaking against the Jewish thinking that they were saved by doing the works of the commandments/law. That thinking gets translated by evangelists as being saved by faith only, which as that article points out, is not a phrase ever used by Paul.

Great point, I had never heard before.

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9 hours ago, AgnostiMorm said:

How is this position really any different than sinful mormons thinking they are actually going to be "saved by grace, after all they can do"?

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

For an agnostic think of it this way:

You mess up and hurt someone.

You do everything you can do to fix it. You try not to hurt other people anymore.

After all that you ultimately have to forgive yourself. You have to let it go and get on with life. 

You have done all that you can.

The culture as a whole recognizes that after you have served your sentence for a crime you are forgiven.

In that case Society has forgiven you.

You are saved by the grace of society.

It's the same concept it's just taken to a greater level so you can forgive yourself.

You let go and let God handle it and your guilt is gone.

It's pretty simple when you make it practical.

Edited by mfbukowski
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10 hours ago, RevTestament said:

being saved by faith only, which as that article points out, is not a phrase ever used by Paul.

Rom 10 [9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Edited by cdowis
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3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

For an agnostic think of it this way:

You mess up and hurt someone.

You do everything you can do to fix it. You try not to hurt other people anymore.

After all that you ultimately have to forgive yourself. You have to let it go and get on with life. 

You have done all that you can.

The culture as a whole recognizes that after you have served your sentence for a crime you are forgiven.

In that case Society has forgiven you.

You are saved by the grace of society.

It's the same concept it's just taken to a greater level so you can forgive yourself.

You let go and let God handle it and your guilt is gone.

It's pretty simple when you make it practical.

Paul agrees with you (Romans 13:11)—when we awake from the “sleep” of sin, then “salvation is nearer than when we believed.”  It’s not the believing that brings salvation nearer, but rather the “awaking.”

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11 hours ago, cdowis said:

Rom 10 [9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

As an apologist, I respond ==>>

Is baptism (a work) necessary for salvation?   What did Christ say in the Bible.

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1 hour ago, cdowis said:

As an apologist, I respond ==>>

Is baptism (a work) necessary for salvation?   What did Christ say in the Bible.

    Of course the evangelical christian will say that it is not our work but Gods work that we are baptized. I have been told this countless times by my evangelical friends.

The Atonement it Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

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26 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You don't seem to understand what those verses are actually saying.

If we have faith in Christ, repent of our sins and desire to follow Him (that's what it means to deny ourselves of ungodliness), then is His grace sufficient for us.  We are all ungodly and we all need to do those things.  Membership in a specific church isn't what makes the difference between being godly and being ungodly (as Rev. knows).  

     The key word here is "If" which is a word of  condition which the word "condition" can replace the 'if".

The Atonement it is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

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22 hours ago, AgnostiMorm said:

IF you deny yourself of all ungodliness, THEN is his grace sufficient for you.

Maybe you should think about your own ungodliness before you throw any more stones at someone else for not accepting mormon doctrine?

I don't believe I threw any stones at you. If you feel so, I apologize. I merely explained my viewpoint and the LDS viewpoint. I did cast perhaps some aspersions at TV evangelists. Are you one? I stand by what I said. Some who have left their ministries have explained the trickery they have used to claim healings etc. I don't condemn them to hell. That is not in my power to do, but the Lord who looks upon their heart judges where they will go.

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14 hours ago, cdowis said:

Rom 10 [9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The believe in thy heart there implies action. It implies action upon your belief that He is our risen Savior. Thus, your deeds and actions will conform to that belief. That is more than just faith.

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1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

The believe in thy heart there implies action. It implies action upon your belief that He is our risen Savior. Thus, your deeds and actions will conform to that belief. That is more than just faith.

“Confess with they mouth” is also an action, isn’t it?

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7 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

“Confess with they mouth” is also an action, isn’t it?

I think the important meaning is the belief in the heart. Back in those days confessing with your mouth was a point of true faith because Christianity was illegal and persecuted in the Roman Empire. Therefore, if one  confessed with their mouth it was a point of true faith or belief. These days it means confessing with your mouth in some church, and going home believing you are saved, and maybe showing up in church a few times per year.

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