Worship Music in the Church

[CV75]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm not sure councils or even the bishop have the authority to make changes. The music will be from the hymnals and it will be accompanied by organ or piano (or a recording of one of the two).

I think much of what we think is worshipful is simply because that is what we have seen and what we know. For example, someone mentioned drums as not being worshipful but well-played drums can really be moving. I think we get stuck thinking that it must be one way so we cut ourselves off from other opportunities for diversity.

I sometimes attend a Methodist church with friends and they have a wide range of music. They actually have 2 different services: 1- is a conservative service where the pastor wears a robe and hymns are sung. 2- the New Life service which sometimes has a full band, including bass, electric & acoustic guitars, drums, keyboard. Sometimes it's only a guitar, or only a keyboard. Sometimes it's got a country feel. Sometimes it's more of alight Christian rock feel. Sometimes it's just popish and some times it's a hymn I recognize from our hymnal played and sung in a more modern way. I never quite know what it's going to be from week to week and the variations are fun and engaging. Interestingly, there is a good balance between young/middle aged/elderly at both of the services which i think is evidence that different types of music and style of presentation of the sermon really impact people differently. There's not a one size fits all.

It's really fun to watch people at the Methodist church interact with the music. They sing joyfully. Sometimes they raise their hands to heaven when they are feeling the spirit but mostly they just sing along. I like that there isn't just one way to be. I feel it opens the individual up to the experience of worship instead of being concerned about appearing to be appropriate, reverent, or solemn. But it's always respectful.

Yes, we generally accommodate the prevailing cultural norms and not individual preferences and tastes. I think that is for the sake of unity. This could certainly require some give and take in some instances to maintain unity. I don’t count keeping up appearances (including judging others’ appearances) as consistent with that.

I think there’s room for flexibility and accommodation suiting common, local needs and circumstances (see 14.4.2 Guidelines for Choosing Appropriate Music for Church Worship Services). Some of the following quotes from that section can help address cultural and ethnic settings within which we practice our faith, and offer some flexibility.

“The hymns are the basic music for worship services and are standard for all congregational singing. In addition, other appropriate selections may be used for prelude and postlude music, choir music, and special musical presentations. If musical selections other than the hymns are used, they should be in keeping with the spirit of the hymns. Texts should be doctrinally correct. (See “Hymns for Congregations,” Hymns, 380–81.)” – I think the needs of the congregation as a whole need to be considered here (as with the last item).

“Music in Church meetings should not draw attention to itself or be for demonstration. This music is for worship, not performance.” – I think this is a touchy one where egos or directly non-worship agenda unfortunately sometimes get involved.

“Organs and pianos, or their electronic equivalents, are the standard instruments used in Church meetings. If other instruments are used, their use should be in keeping with the spirit of the meeting.” – I think this allows for the use of instruments unique to the local mores (who is going to check / argue? J )

“Music in Church meetings should usually be sung in the language of the congregation.”

[strappinglad]

I recently attended a funeral in which , after the ending when the coffin was being taken out, a brass trio/Quartette ,playing outside of the chapel but in the entry, played a tune. This was not a military funeral. The sound was disconcerting, jarring even. It changed the tone of the meeting ( pun intended ) .

We regularly have musical numbers in sacrament meeting that have a flute or a violin or cello in addition to the piano. Some instruments lend themselves to a Church atmosphere, others don't. A Saxophone...problematic, a French Horn...hmmmm, a trumpet.. special occasions maybe , a tuba ... odd choice, an acoustic guitar... OK , an electric guitar... now we are stretching.

Six days shalt thou labor to produce music from whatever instrument thou wantest, on the seventh , a couple of hymns for tradition couldn't hoit.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 minute ago, strappinglad said:

I recently attended a funeral in which , after the ending when the coffin was being taken out, a brass trio/Quartette ,playing outside of the chapel but in the entry, played a tune. This was not a military funeral. The sound was disconcerting, jarring even. It changed the tone of the meeting ( pun intended ) .

We regularly have musical numbers in sacrament meeting that have a flute or a violin or cello in addition to the piano. Some instruments lend themselves to a Church atmosphere, others don't. A Saxophone...problematic, a French Horn...hmmmm, a trumpet.. special occasions maybe , a tuba ... odd choice, an acoustic guitar... OK , an electric guitar... now we are stretching.

Six days shalt thou labor to produce music from whatever instrument thou wantest, on the seventh , a couple of hymns for tradition couldn't hoit.

To me, tradition isn't a good enough reason to maintain a hum-drum musical policy. Thankfully we don't all sit around and chant like the good-ole-days  

Everything you mentioned is a cultural interpretation of what is and is not appropriate. But culture changes and I don't see the need to maintain the 19th - mid twentieth century propriety of church music. Culture has and is changing. There's nothing wrong with changing with it. It will happen, it's just a matter of when

[Ahab]

What I would like to see at church during singing is a little more active participation!

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=simpson's+organist+at+church&&view=detail&mid=429F8DDA297BF2BCCBB2429F8DDA297BF2BCCBB2&&FORM=VRDGAR

[JAHS]

1 minute ago, Ahab said:

What I would like to see at church during singing is a little more active participation!

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=simpson's+organist+at+church&&view=detail&mid=429F8DDA297BF2BCCBB2429F8DDA297BF2BCCBB2&&FORM=VRDGAR

Back in the old days during Sunday School opening exercises we had song practice. The song leader would pick a song and have members sing their parts(soprano, alto, tenor ,base) separately and then put them all together. There was definitely more participation back then. 

[strappinglad]

Actually, I wouldn't mind the occasional Gregorian chant. They are quite beautiful and uplifting.

 

 

Edited June 11, 2018 by strappinglad

[Amulek]

5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Should the church consider changing the style of music or implementing a wider variety of musical worship?

If by "wider variety of musical worship" you mean that wanna-be folk / soft pop rock nonsense that passes as "praise" music in most modern churches, then the answer is no.

Absolutely, unequivocally no.

A thousand times no.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, strappinglad said:

In truth, the funeral dirge - ness would mostly be eliminated if the organist and chorister would bring the tempo up to what is actually asked for in the hymnbook.

Our ward is the evidence for this. We have two organists. One causes everything to drag. The other one challenges the congregation to keep up (and not just in tempo). I love the second one!

BTW, we also stand to sing the intermediate hymn in my ward.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Spammer]

Chanted psalms and prayers is the music of the ancient temple and synagogue. Listening to it, whether Gregorian or (in particular) Christian chant that sounds Middle-Eastern (Byzantine, Mozarabic, Syriac, Beneventan, Milanese, Old Roman), is to transport yourself musically back to apostolic times. I can’t imagine Christian worship without it. 

Edited June 12, 2018 by Spammer

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, Spammer said:

Chanted psalms and prayers is the music of the ancient temple and synagogue. Listening to it, whether Gregorian or (especially) Christian chant that sounds Middle-Eastern (Byzantine, Mozarabic, Syriac, Beneventan, Milanese, Old Roman), is to transport yourself musically back to apostolic times. I can’t imagine Christian worship without it. 

No kidding.

But not exactly apostolic  times.  Medieval yes!

I  have a pretty good and expanding collection of CD's.

But of course  I was born in 1268, but don't look a day over 240.

Everybody should drink formaldehyde, it has quite a pleasant punch to it.  No alcohol of course. 

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

If by "wider variety of musical worship" you mean that wanna-be folk / soft pop rock nonsense that passes as "praise" music in most modern churches, then the answer is no.

Absolutely, unequivocally no.

A thousand times no.

 

Dude you are just uncool!

What we need is rap sacrament meetings!   I mean we could rap the prayer- wouldn't that be great?

Or maybe that droning hypnotic  stuff over and over and over that turns your brain to mush while you are waving your arms!  

[Spammer]

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

No kidding.

But not exactly apostolic  times.  Medieval yes!

I  have a pretty good and expanding collection of CD's.

But of course  I was born in 1268, but don't look a day over 240.

Everybody should drink formaldehyde, it has quite a pleasant punch to it.  No alcohol of course. 

 

Hi there!

I think you're right about Gregorian, but I think the Syriac, Byzantine and the Byzantine-inspired Western forms I mentioned are older. Play some Byzantine,Mozarabic or Beneventan chant side by side with some old Jewish chant and the similarity in modes seems clear.  I think both derive from a common source.  The question becomes exactly when did Christians first adopt the music of the synagogue and temple.  Makes sense to me that the first Christians (since they were Jews) likely initiated the process.  

Check out Eric Werner. The Sacred Bridge: The Interdependence of Liturgy and Music in Synagogue and Church During the First Millenium. Columbia U Press. 

[mnn727]

6 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Ha, ha. No thanks. Connection or no.  

BTW- We did an instant choir in our area too and it was great. It was on the program like a regular choir number. At the appointed time, those who wanted to sing went to the choir section, sang the song, and then went back to their seats. It was nice because it included people who couldn't spend time at practice after church and got rid of the headache of trying to find a place and time to meet for practice. It was very popular. Sometimes there were as many people in the choir as there were left in the congregation.

We've done the same thing a few times -- turned out nice.

[LittleNipper]

I recommend this hymn https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-pty-pty_weather&hsimp=yhs-pty_weather&hspart=pty&p=Holy+Holy+Holy#id=2&vid=747eb256f79fffa41ea304f3ea85b0e7&action=click

[Hamba Tuhan]

31 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Or maybe that droning hypnotic  stuff over and over and over that turns your brain to mush while you are waving your arms!  

The word that pops into my mind is vacuous.

We had an 18-year-old young man get baptised in our ward this past weekend. It was my privilege to confirm him, by his request. He was removed from his family when he was still quite young as a consequence of having been abused by both parents. He then spent time in two foster placements before ending up in the residential care system (not a good place to be, as a rule, but mercifully where he met several Church members!) and then, thankfully, an independent care home with his younger brother. When he first started meeting with missionaries, he had a very negative attitude towards Christianity. He said it stemmed from one of his foster families. As he put it, they insisted on taking him to 'one of those churches where everyone stands around waving their arms but there isn't anything there'.

[Amulek]

50 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Dude you are just uncool!

This is sort of the enthymeme of my life.

 

Quote

What we need is rap sacrament meetings!   I mean we could rap the prayer- wouldn't that be great?

Oh man, flashback.

I had almost completely forgotten about that song (probably should have included a trigger warning - sorry). 
 

Quote

Or maybe that droning hypnotic  stuff over and over and over that turns your brain to mush while you are waving your arms!  

To be fair, there's some old stuff that can turn your brain to mush too.

 

[RevTestament]

10 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I came across this survey and I thought others might be interested. I'm not associated with the survey or anyone involved but I think it touches on an important issue in the church. At least its important to me.

Music at church is a real drag. We have fairly skilled organists and conductors but each week I feel like I'm sitting in a funeral, singing bass on a super slow dirge. Personally, I don't connect to the hymnal style of music, nor do I enjoy the organ. Never have. MOTAB doesn't impress me, even though I know they are very good. I don't believe music has to be slow, choral, hymns accompanied by organ or piano, to be worshipful. It's totally just a personal preference for me. I recognize that.

But I wonder how many others also feel a disconnect from worship music and they way we do music in the church. I suspect this survey is attempting to put some numbers to that. I'm curious, on a very basic level, are you satisfied with music as an extension of your worship experience on Sundays, or do you wish for more.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdkd6PL1GiJ0Ex1lDTItwN58K3IhH_D3xdb6qiCmD2Nci9eag/viewform

Should the church consider changing the style of music or implementing a wider variety of musical worship

Yes and no. I really love some of the solemn sacrament hymns. I also feel the Church has a reasonable mix of other hymns in the Hymnal. However, I agree that much too often the tempo is way to slow, and then when it is not sung properly, it is just kind of drab and not uplifting. Most people do not sing with the proper support from the diaphragm, and so the hymns get sung a little flat. It reminds me of bagpipes running out of air, but all through the song.

I have suggested before that at least our electronic hymnal could be updated easily with a lot of new songs. There are many songs the MTABC sings which are not in our hymnal but which are quite appropriate - like Simple Gifts. Simple Gifts is a short but spirited, uplifting song. Someone said that Utah seems to be resistant to changes in the Hymnal. I have to agree. I have tried to offer to sing Pie Jesu - even a translation of it - but get soundly rejected every time. It seems to me that part of this resistance is a desire to maintain a "Mormon" identity to services. However, we already have songs in our Hymnal used by other denominations. I don't see a problem using the best of what is out there. Much of it is now in the public domain.

In short I vote that we keep what we have, but add the best of the rest. 

I love spirituals, but let's face it - a bunch of white folk singing them usually just doesn't do them justice - esp if they are going to get sung with the usual nonchalance. I hope for the day when there are wards that will tackle them. Nor do I favor the seemingly endless drivel of modern "praise music." But there is plenty out there which we could use to dress up our Hymnal. I mean for Pete's sake we don't even have Amazing Grace in our Hymnal. I say let's not be prideful about maintaining a "Mormon identity" and include songs which other denominations know and love - and miss, when they join.

Edited June 12, 2018 by RevTestament

[Garlicllama]

9 hours ago, ElPatron said:

I will admit that whenever the opening hymn is “Rock of Ages” I’m tempted to begin it with “Unda Glieben Glauten Globen” just to spice things up a bit. 

My family loves an old movie, "Support Your Local Sheriff," that starts out with a funeral where someone is playing Rock of Ages on an accordion. The funeral quickly devolves into chaos when gold is found in the grave. I can never hear that song at church without bursting into giggles.

[Ahab]

17 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Actually, I wouldn't mind the occasional Gregorian chant. They are quite beautiful and uplifting.

 

 

I second that motion.

[JLHPROF]

I can't fully go with either poll choice.

"Music at church is great. No changes are needed."  - I think a little change would be a good thing, especially if it invites the spirit and brings a little energy.

"It would be interesting and meaningful if the church allowed for greater diversity in musical worship." - I think this could easily create a slippery slope allowing improper music in the name of diversity.

I know for instance that there are Christian heavy metal and rap groups.  IMO that has no place.  I am not convinced that all "multi-cultural" musical expression is appropriate either. (I mean as much as I love the fiddle and irish bagpipes I don't think that quite works).
The spirit has to be considered.

[JAHS]

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

What we need is rap sacrament meetings!   I mean we could rap the prayer- wouldn't that be great?

Or some rap music.

 

[Garden Girl]

When I first reactivated (after having been inactive for 34 years), I was so hungry for the spiritual that I watched several TV Christian channels on TV.  I got caught up in the music, even the style of Evangelical preaching... I liked the way it "whipped up" my emotions.   Then I took time to read/listen to the words and the music of our hymns... and I felt great peace and comfort... then Gen Conf came on and I listened to the talks and found such quiet beauty in the talks, the Spirit filling my mind and heart, witnessing the truth of what I was hearing.  When I next attended Church, I couldn't stop crying during several of our hymns... "Dear to the Heart  of the Shepherd" comes to mind, among others...I continue to love our hymns because of the wonderful truths of the gospel contained in them... I would welcome several additional more "upbeat" hymns, but our current hymns are where my heart is...

GG

[The Nehor]

22 hours ago, Garlicllama said:

My family loves an old movie, "Support Your Local Sheriff," that starts out with a funeral where someone is playing Rock of Ages on an accordion. The funeral quickly devolves into chaos when gold is found in the grave. I can never hear that song at church without bursting into giggles.

I thought I was the only one who did that. I still smile when we sing that song.

 

I think we need more hymns devoted to the worship of Joseph Smith and the celebration of Smithmas. 

[HappyJackWagon]

It looks like close to 78% of respondents on the very scientific poll would at least be open to changes to with music at church, though limits would likely apply. I'm hearing call for chants, but no rapping  

There are some very beautiful hymns but there are some that seem completely devoid of melody. I too would like to keep the best of the best but add to that the best of the best from some other traditions. There are some very beautiful religious songs at other churches that could be included. Even some of our own LDS contemporary could be better utilized, at least for special musical numbers.

[Stargazer]

On 6/11/2018 at 6:28 PM, Tacenda said:

Can't stand it, went to church yesterday and had to sing quietly because any louder I would have stood out too much. 

Is that because you can't carry a tune or the congregation whispers the hymns?  🙂 

My wife pretends to dread it when certain hymns are on the program, because I think they sound better in German (my mission language), and like to sing them out loudly in that language!