Powerful or manipulative Prayer methods?

[nuclearfuels]

Jarom 1:11-12

Wherefore, the prophets, and the priests, and the ^ateachers, did labor diligently, exhorting with all long-suffering the people to ^bdiligence; teaching the ^clawof Moses, and the intent for which it was given; persuading them to ^dlook forward unto the Messiah, and believe in him to come ^eas though he already was. 

Alma 40:8 - ...all is as oneday with God, and time only is measured unto men.

Seems like the BoM has examples of Nephites believing spiritual and physical/temporal/earthly events of the future to have already occurred.

If a person prayed and said:

"I thank Thee, God, for blessing me with x" and x had not yet been given to the person but he/she had faith, total faith, that it woudl be given - woudl that be a powerful prayer or a manipulative prayer, where the perosn i stryign to manipulate or pressure God?

 

 

[Eek!]

5 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

If a person prayed and said:

"I thank Thee, God, for blessing me with x" and x had not yet been given to the person but he/she had faith, total faith, that it woudl be given - woudl that be a powerful prayer or a manipulative prayer, where the perosn i stryign to manipulate or pressure God?

Why not give it a try and see what you think? 

You might start with something that hasn't happened yet but which you have no trouble believing will happen (i.e., something you have "total faith" will be given to you).   For instance, suppose you have a conflict with someone, but you are confident the conflict is not going to last for all eternity.  So you might say, "thank you for healing our relationship".   Then just see how it feels.   

Edited June 5, 2018 by Eek!

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

Jarom 1:11-12

Wherefore, the prophets, and the priests, and the ^ateachers, did labor diligently, exhorting with all long-suffering the people to ^bdiligence; teaching the ^clawof Moses, and the intent for which it was given; persuading them to ^dlook forward unto the Messiah, and believe in him to come ^eas though he already was. 

Alma 40:8 - ...all is as oneday with God, and time only is measured unto men.

Seems like the BoM has examples of Nephites believing spiritual and physical/temporal/earthly events of the future to have already occurred.

If a person prayed and said:

"I thank Thee, God, for blessing me with x" and x had not yet been given to the person but he/she had faith, total faith, that it woudl be given - woudl that be a powerful prayer or a manipulative prayer, where the perosn i stryign to manipulate or pressure God?

 

 

Depends on how you define "manipulation", I suppose.

I think of prayer as either thanking God for what he has already given me or me asking him for stuff that I don't think I have yet and think that I would like to have..

Asking, akin to begging.  Pleading.  Trying to use a little persuasion, maybe, but still it's me asking him and him who decides when and how and if he wants to answer me however he thinks is best.

I honestly can't see any realistic way possible for me or anyone else to "manipulate" God into doing anything.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Ahab
typos

[Amulek]

8 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Seems like the BoM has examples of Nephites believing spiritual and physical/temporal/earthly events of the future to have already occurred.

I don't read that as them believing a future event has already occurred. It says they should look forward to a future event with the same kind of belief that they have about things which have already occurred (i.e., as though it were real - even though it hasn't happened yet). 

Sort of like how Democrats might look forward to a day when Trump is no longer president. That is an event which has yet to occur but which can be believed with certainty.  

Seems perfectly reasonable to me, and not at all manipulative. 

[The Nehor]

Thanks for giving me the winning lotto numbers for this week. I appreciate it. Also, thanks for the exaltation I am going to get at Judgement Day. Also, thanks for striking that moron who cut me off this morning with leprosy.

[Avatar4321]

Exercising faith isn't manipulative. You can't manipulate God. Being manipulative requires deception and God knows all the secrets of our heart so He knows if we are sincere.

his scriptures say that every knee will now and every tongue confess, so everyone will accept He is Who He says.

 

[The Nehor]

Local man learned to manipulate prayer with this one weird trick. Gods hate him.

[filovirus]

I think you are misinterpreting this scripture a bit. They are worshiping as if Christ had already come to earth and atoned for their sins. They understood this would happen, and so were worshiping as if it already had.

It would be the same as if we worshiped as if the 2nd coming had already occurred. What would change if we did it this way? We would probably have a lot more focus on temple work, but I don't see it as a huge change. In fact, I suggest worshiping as if the 2nd coming had occurred. It will give new perspective in our life.

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, filovirus said:

In fact, I suggest worshiping as if the 2nd coming had occurred. It will give new perspective in our life.

It seems to work for the JWs.

Edited June 5, 2018 by cinepro

[Duncan]

I am not saying this video is manipulative but this practice is something we did as missionaries, we did the kneeling prayer and expected them to get an answer right then, Elder Cook even talks about not manipulating them or pressuring them. I think what this video is is probably how you should do it vs. what we actually did. Funnily enough I know of the of the missionaries in this video! hahahahahahhahahahaha!

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, filovirus said:

I think you are misinterpreting this scripture a bit. They are worshiping as if Christ had already come to earth and atoned for their sins. They understood this would happen, and so were worshiping as if it already had.

It would be the same as if we worshiped as if the 2nd coming had already occurred. What would change if we did it this way? We would probably have a lot more focus on temple work, but I don't see it as a huge change. In fact, I suggest worshiping as if the 2nd coming had occurred. It will give new perspective in our life.

Not a chance. If he wants me to pray as if all the wicked have been burnt to nice crisp He is just going to have to come down and crisp them.

Then again I strongly doubt I will see the Second Coming in the flesh in any case.

[nuclearfuels]

On 6/5/2018 at 2:36 PM, Duncan said:

I am not saying this video is manipulative but this practice is something we did as missionaries, we did the kneeling prayer and expected them to get an answer right then, Elder Cook even talks about not manipulating them or pressuring them. I think what this video is is probably how you should do it vs. what we actually did. Funnily enough I know of the of the missionaries in this video! hahahahahahhahahahaha!

Funny thing about that - Gene R. Cook presented the same training to my mission.

 

[mfbukowski]

On 6/4/2018 at 12:32 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Jarom 1:11-12

Wherefore, the prophets, and the priests, and the ^ateachers, did labor diligently, exhorting with all long-suffering the people to ^bdiligence; teaching the ^clawof Moses, and the intent for which it was given; persuading them to ^dlook forward unto the Messiah, and believe in him to come ^eas though he already was. 

Alma 40:8 - ...all is as oneday with God, and time only is measured unto men.

Seems like the BoM has examples of Nephites believing spiritual and physical/temporal/earthly events of the future to have already occurred.

If a person prayed and said:

"I thank Thee, God, for blessing me with x" and x had not yet been given to the person but he/she had faith, total faith, that it woudl be given - woudl that be a powerful prayer or a manipulative prayer, where the perosn i stryign to manipulate or pressure God?

 

 

Striving to pressure God?

Seriously?

The Guy who sees right through everything we think and know and do?   How stupid would you have to be to do that?

There is this streak in some Mormons that sees God like your third cousin "Uncle Joe" and it makes you glad that at least he "knows your name"

There is often this distance I see here that drives me nuts!

Manipulating GOD??

Give me a break!  "Yeah sure- no problem- I can get Him to do what i want"

Oh my gosh!!

[Atheist Mormon]

On 6/4/2018 at 2:32 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Jarom 1:11-12

Wherefore, the prophets, and the priests, and the ^ateachers, did labor diligently, exhorting with all long-suffering the people to ^bdiligence; teaching the ^clawof Moses, and the intent for which it was given; persuading them to ^dlook forward unto the Messiah, and believe in him to come ^eas though he already was. 

Alma 40:8 - ...all is as oneday with God, and time only is measured unto men.

Seems like the BoM has examples of Nephites believing spiritual and physical/temporal/earthly events of the future to have already occurred.

If a person prayed and said:

"I thank Thee, God, for blessing me with x" and x had not yet been given to the person but he/she had faith, total faith, that it woudl be given - woudl that be a powerful prayer or a manipulative prayer, where the perosn i stryign to manipulate or pressure God?

 

 

No matter how you pray.....It is one way communication. If it helps you to calm & relax, it is done it's job.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

No matter how you pray.....It is one way communication. If it helps you to calm & relax, it is done it's job.

Sometimes yes, but usually I talk back.

[nuclearfuels]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Striving to pressure God?

Seriously?

The Guy who sees right through everything we think and know and do?   How stupid would you have to be to do that?

There is this streak in some Mormons that sees God like your third cousin "Uncle Joe" and it makes you glad that at least he "knows your name"

There is often this distance I see here that drives me nuts!

Manipulating GOD??

Give me a break!  "Yeah sure- no problem- I can get Him to do what i want"

Oh my gosh!!

Not sure I can add anything to this poignant response

[nuclearfuels]

Alma 40:8 - ...all is as oneday with God, and time only is measured unto men.

Since God knows past, present and future why should we be restricted to one or two of those?

Honestly, aren't we all thankful for what God gave us premortally?

And in the present?

And in the future-  assuming Nehor's leprosy curse and burned to a crisp alm leave us unscathed?

 

[nuclearfuels]

On 6/5/2018 at 10:39 AM, The Nehor said:

Local man learned to manipulate prayer with this one weird trick. Gods hate him.

As we've discussed previously, Nehor, it is an established fact that God started hating me long before I found a way to manipulate Him with my prayers.

After telling some non-member friends where 11 months of my mission were served, they sincerely asked: Who hated you, other than God?

Four tours of duty w/ BSA followed that.

Honestly, I picture Him throwing His hands down and walking away after one too many face-palms from my prayers...I think that's why a few scriptures warn us to truly think about what we pray for cuz we might actually get those things.

[nuclearfuels]

13 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

No matter how you pray.....It is one way communication. If it helps you to calm & relax, it is done it's job.

You're right; meditation is a strong part of prayer.

After hearing President Eyring share his experience praying for spiritual mountains to climb, I immediately prayed for the longest flattest prairie to continue my path on.

I don't ask God for challenges because I'm content with what I have, or close enough to content, to not ask Hiim to rock the boat. 

But then again- aren't we supposed to struggle in mighty prayer and weary the Lord with our prayers?

Why would I pick a fight with Someone who never loses?

I find it safer to thank Him for future blessings that I know are coming, tomorrow or in +20 years.

[mfbukowski]

Yeah, you gotta stop snorting that nuclear fuel.

[nuclearfuels]

On 6/5/2018 at 11:03 AM, filovirus said:

I think you are misinterpreting this scripture a bit. They are worshiping as if Christ had already come to earth and atoned for their sins. They understood this would happen, and so were worshiping as if it already had.

It would be the same as if we worshiped as if the 2nd coming had already occurred. What would change if we did it this way? We would probably have a lot more focus on temple work, but I don't see it as a huge change. In fact, I suggest worshiping as if the 2nd coming had occurred. It will give new perspective in our life.

I think you make excellent points.

If we prayed as if the Savior had already returned, would we be living the high-EST law (not sure what this is other than 24-7 Temple work and maybe a gathering) as opposed to the high-ER law of the New Testament?

When I pray in the way you're suggesting (and after each General Conference) I apply for jobs at Church HQ - not that I'm qualified and not that anyone in my extended family encourages me to relocate to Zion.

[mfbukowski]

On the other hand"Israel" means " he who struggles with God "

[nuclearfuels]

On 6/5/2018 at 1:21 AM, The Nehor said:

Thanks for giving me the winning lotto numbers for this week. I appreciate it. Also, thanks for the exaltation I am going to get at Judgement Day. Also, thanks for striking that moron who cut me off this morning with leprosy.

Lottery? yes.

Exaltation? Pretty sure that depends on my wife, so...possible.

Leprosy? Not really. I don't drive that much; all metro

[nuclearfuels]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

On the other hand"Israel" means " he who struggles with God "

There's another one of those facts that I'm hoping applies more to the younger generation

[mfbukowski]

10 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

There's another one of those facts that I'm hoping applies more to the younger generation

But Israel walked away with a limp.

That's how it usually works.