Biblical Keys For Discerning True And False Prophets

[NotaMormon]

I’ve been meeting with some missionaries recently and the issue of praying about the restored gospel has come up. I did some extra searches on it and found this article, http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests

 

It certainly cites some good verses, but many of them don’t even talk about false prophets/teachers at all. It mentions these verses, but doesn't explain how they fit within the context of testing prophets or teachers.

 

Galatians 1:8-9

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

 

1 John 4:1-3

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

 

They actually address the issue of how we recognize false prophets, so shouldn’t these verses be some of our primary sources on the issue? What do they mean? How can we apply the principles in these verses to modern questions about truth?

 

Paul is putting an extreme amount of faith and trust in the reliability of the gospel. He even puts himself, the other apostles and all men under the authority of the gospel he already gave them. He certainly doesn’t act like that gospel would soon be lost. He doesn’t give an out to explain why anyone should trust a “restoration” of the gospel.

 

The world already had a gospel in the Bible when Smith restored the gospel. Doesn’t the restoration mean the restored gospel is different than the gospel people see just by looking at the Bible? Even if the restored only adds doctrines to the gospel of the Bible, that’s still a different gospel. So why doesn’t the restored gospel fall under Paul’s warning? What was Paul talking about?

 

John gives an example of how we can recognize a false teacher. In his case, the false teachers were saying Jesus didn’t come in the flesh. That doesn’t mean that’s the extent of the model of testing teachers. There are many different gospels today that teach Jesus came in the flesh, but they can’t all be from God. The general principle in John’s model, just like Paul’s, is to reject a teaching if it doesn’t match the doctrines we already have in scripture.

 

How do Paul’s and John’s model of testing teachers fit with the LDS keys for discerning true and false prophets?

Edited March 7, 2015 by NotaMormon

[Antoni]

Hi,

 

I hope your meetings with the missionaries are going well. Thanks for your post.

 

If you take a wider look at the NT and early church history I think you will find that there was concern over the teachings of the gospel being changed/lost.

 

The Galatians verse you quote does point out that Paul was worried about other gospels being preached in his day.

 

The 1 John test you quote is valid and again if you use it you will find that our prophets do testify of Christ.

 

We preach the fullness of the gospel. I don't think you're right in saying ; "The general principle in John’s model, just like Paul’s, is to reject a teaching if it doesn’t match the doctrines we already have in scripture." as the scriptures John and Paul had were different to ours. These apostles point to Christ / Spirit more than refering early Christians to scriptures. Even so the LDS doctrines are contained in the scriptures if you know where to look

 

Wishing you Light, Love and Peace as you continue to ponder, pray and study.

[NotaMormon]

Yes, I've seen the verses that warn about about false teachers and predict that 'some' or 'many' people will follow them. But I don't understand why we should see 'some' or 'many' and read it as 'the whole church.' None of the verses say the whole church would follow those false teachers, so why should we believe the whole church fell away?

 

I've also heard the verses that predict a 'restoration,' but they don't specify that the gospel would need to be restored. Why should we read the concept of a restoration of the gospel into those passages when they don't mention it?

 

The issue of the apostasy was one of the first topics that came up in our meetings and I don't see it. God obviously had the power to preserve the church and the gospel. People were willing to die for their faith in Christ. So what was missing? Why didn't God preserve the church?

 

Obviously, we have to look at the NT as a whole, but why is that the first response to these verses? Why is the key to understanding verses about false prophets to look at a bunch of verses that don't mention false prophets at all?

 

So what were Paul and John talking about? How can we apply the principles in these verses to modern questions about truth?

[Kevin Christensen]

I’ve been meeting with some missionaries recently and the issue of praying about the restored gospel has come up. I did some extra searches on it and found this article, http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests

 

It certainly cites some good verses, but many of them don’t even talk about false prophets/teachers at all. Shouldn’t these verses also be part of how we discern truth from false teachings?

 

Galatians 1:8-9

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

 

1 John 4:1-3

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

 

They actually address the issue of how we recognize false prophets, so shouldn’t these verses be some of our primary sources on the issue? What do they mean? How can we apply the principles in these verses to modern questions about truth?

 

Paul is putting an extreme amount of faith and trust in the reliability of the gospel. He even puts himself, the other apostles and all men under the authority of the gospel he already gave them. He certainly doesn’t act like that gospel would soon be lost. He doesn’t give an out to explain why anyone should trust a “restoration” of the gospel.

 

The world already had a gospel in the Bible when Smith restored the gospel. Doesn’t the restoration mean the restored gospel is different than the gospel people see just by looking at the Bible? Even if the restored only adds doctrines to the gospel of the Bible, that’s still a different gospel. So why doesn’t the restored gospel fall under Paul’s warning? What was Paul talking about?

 

John gives an example of how we can recognize a false teacher. In his case, the false teachers were saying Jesus didn’t come in the flesh. That doesn’t mean that’s the extent of the model of testing teachers. There are many different gospels today that teach Jesus came in the flesh, but they can’t all be from God. The general principle in John’s model, just like Paul’s, is to reject a teaching if it doesn’t match the doctrines we already have in scripture.

 

How do Paul’s and John’s model of testing teachers fit with the LDS keys for discerning true and false prophets?

 

In Paul's day, the Galatians and others could look to the original apostles and seventies as a contemporary, vital organization. In the contemporary times, that verse is often directed at Mormons based on the untested assumption that what any particular group already believes is identical to what Paul has preached and is therefore a viable standard against which to judge the LDS. And that often devolves to a cliched set of arguments, amounting to saying that "Because the Mormons are "Not us" you can reject them uncritically, and certainly don't need to bother with the other 27 Biblical tests for discerning true and false prophets."  Testing comprehensively against the full range has the unsettling effect of moving the argument into a different set of questions, and raises the issue of "Why us?  Do we actually teach the same understanding as did the original apostles, or, might a restoration be necessary?"  It happens that I did list the Galatians verses under Character of Teaching.

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests/Jesus_come_in_the_flesh

 

 

And I did include 1 John 4:2 on the necessity of teaching the resurrection in the flesh.

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests/Jesus_come_in_the_flesh

 

So, I did include those verses in my essay.  One of the things that still surprises me is that anyone could have done what I did in collecting these tests, and no one had.  Mormon claims are rarely tested in this way, but are most often dismissed as "not what we believe, which is so obviously the correct way that we ought not even imagine the possibility of testing ourselves, checking our own eyes for beams, let alone the necessity of doing so in order to see clearly."

 

FWIW

 

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Edited March 7, 2015 by Kevin Christensen

[Antoni]

I recommend this book : http://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Ancient-Church-Joseph-Christianity/dp/1893036162/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1425736430&sr=1-1

 

He says things better than I can. I found it a useful tool in understanding more about early church and the divergent views within it. The author is coming from an LDS point of view BUT his references to early church writings will certainly be of interest whether you accept his conclusions or not.

 

The apostasy was gradual but you only have to look at what happened to the church a few hundred years into its existence to see it is a very different body to its first century existence. Most notable is the influence of Greek thought (Hellenisation) into the church as well as the "conversion" of Constantine and the changes that brought.

 

Church history is complex and fascinating! Why did God allow apostasy to happen I just don't know. Just as I don't know why God took thousands of years before He sent Christ to atone for our sins. Throughout the apostasy God was working in people's lives and again I believe you can see God working in situations to allow a full restoration to occur.

 

Light, Love and Peace

Edited March 7, 2015 by Antoni

[CV75]

The general principle in John’s model, just like Paul’s, is to reject a teaching if it doesn’t match the doctrines we already have in scripture.

 

How do Paul’s and John’s model of testing teachers fit with the LDS keys for discerning true and false prophets?

Where do John and Paul limit acceptable teachings only to those doctrines already documented in scripture, especially since their sacred texts were not the same Bible as ours? They were the living oracles of their day, doing what living oracles have always done when the Lord authorized them to preach His word.

 

I would say that the more fundamental, general principle they are teaching is to rely upon the witness or testimony of the Spirit of God to recognize and receive the Gospel and Gospel teachings (whether delivered written or “live”), and that by extension that light helps us reject false teachings.

 

This model fits the LDS invitation to ask God if any thing is true so that the power of the Holy Ghost can bear witness that it is.

Edited March 7, 2015 by CV75

[Bobbieaware]

In Paul's day, the Galatians and others could look to the original apostles and seventies as a contemporary, vital organization. In the contemporary times, that verse is often directed at Mormons based on the untested assumption that what any particular group already believes is identical to what Paul has preached and is therefore a viable standard against which to judge the LDS. And that often devolves to a cliched set of arguments, amounting to saying that "Because the Mormons are "Not us" you can reject them uncritically, and certainly don't need to bother with the other 27 Biblical tests for discerning true and false prophets." Testing comprehensively against the full range has the unsettling effect of moving the argument into a different set of questions, and raises the issue of "Why us? Do we actually teach the same understanding as did the original apostles, or, might a restoration be necessary?" It happens that I did list the Galatians verses under Character of Teaching.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests/Jesus_come_in_the_flesh

And I did include 1 John 4:2 on the necessity of teaching the resurrection in the flesh.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests/Jesus_come_in_the_flesh

So, I did include those verses in my essay. One of the things that still surprises me is that anyone could have done what I did in collecting these tests, and no one had. Mormon claims are rarely tested in this way, but are most often dismissed as "not what we believe, which is so obviously the correct way that we ought not even imagine the possibility of testing ourselves, checking our own eyes for beams, let alone the necessity of doing so in order to see clearly."

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Excellent post. Throughout the years, I've been fascinated to hear Christian critics of the restored church quote that warning of Paul's in Galatians 1 with great confidence that their beliefs are in total harmony with Paul's teachings, when it's obvious to any critical thinker they are not. This non-critical view of their own position has always seemed rather odd in light of the fact that they're often such biblical literalists. Do the churches these critics attend have much resemblance to the Church of Christ Paul described and championed in his epistles? absolutely not.

The Church of Paul's day had living apostles and prophets, continuing revelation, an unclosed and expanding canon of scripture, visions of the Father and the Son, heavenly visions and visitations from angels, a belief that the gospel is preached to the dead, an ordinance of baptism for the dead, a belief that there are three degrees of heavenly glory, an ongoing and dynamic "worldwide" missionary effort, water baptism (often rejected as unnecessary by our critics), and ordinance of the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost (also rarely acknowledged or performed by our critics), a belief in theosis, a belief that there need to be living prophets of God on earth who possess the sealing power Christ gave to Peter, etcetera. So while claiming the LDS Church and gospel don!t square with Paul's teachings, they are oblivious to the fact that their churches and beliefs have strayed far from what's plainly taught in the Bible.

Many years ago, while at a very well attended anti-Mormon lecture, an Evangelical minister approached me and said, "I'll tell you what's wrong with you Mormons: you follow your prophets and not Christ!" I responded by asking him the following question: "If you were a follower of Christ during the New Testament era, could you have rejected the Church leadership and prophetic authority of Peter, James, John and Paul and still be considered a true follower of Christ?" With an expression like that of a deer with eyes caught in the headlights, he was speechless. it appeared obvious that question had never before crosses his mind. Such is the state of those who lack the ability to think critically.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[rongo]

You might find slides 19-29 from this community fireside I did a few years ago relevant to this topic:

 

http://www.fillthenet.com/Sep2.pdf

[thesometimesaint]

Yes, I've seen the verses that warn about about false teachers and predict that 'some' or 'many' people will follow them. But I don't understand why we should see 'some' or 'many' and read it as 'the whole church.' None of the verses say the whole church would follow those false teachers, so why should we believe the whole church fell away?

 

I've also heard the verses that predict a 'restoration,' but they don't specify that the gospel would need to be restored. Why should we read the concept of a restoration of the gospel into those passages when they don't mention it?

 

The issue of the apostasy was one of the first topics that came up in our meetings and I don't see it. God obviously had the power to preserve the church and the gospel. People were willing to die for their faith in Christ. So what was missing? Why didn't God preserve the church?

 

Obviously, we have to look at the NT as a whole, but why is that the first response to these verses? Why is the key to understanding verses about false prophets to look at a bunch of verses that don't mention false prophets at all?

 

So what were Paul and John talking about? How can we apply the principles in these verses to modern questions about truth?

 

We are all mortals. We all make mistakes. Including the Prophets and those that wrote the Bible. IE; Jesus himself didn't write a word of the Bible. So how do we tell what is from God and what is not? The only way I know of is to study, ponder(think deeply about), and ask God through prayer.

 

Apostasy means to fall way. Paul talks about it. For something to be restored it first has to fall away.

 

God won't violate your Agency. He won't force you to do anything. "Chose Ye this day whom Ye shall serve".

 

Because without the Apostasy there could be no Restoration. No, I saw another Angel flying in the midst of Heaven having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,... .

 

The only way I know is to study, ponder(think deeply about) and pray.

Edited March 7, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[Avatar4321]

I’ve been meeting with some missionaries recently and the issue of praying about the restored gospel has come up. I did some extra searches on it and found this article, http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests

 

It certainly cites some good verses, but many of them don’t even talk about false prophets/teachers at all. Shouldn’t these verses also be part of how we discern truth from false teachings?

 

Galatians 1:8-9

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

 

1 John 4:1-3

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

 

They actually address the issue of how we recognize false prophets, so shouldn’t these verses be some of our primary sources on the issue? What do they mean? How can we apply the principles in these verses to modern questions about truth?

 

Paul is putting an extreme amount of faith and trust in the reliability of the gospel. He even puts himself, the other apostles and all men under the authority of the gospel he already gave them. He certainly doesn’t act like that gospel would soon be lost. He doesn’t give an out to explain why anyone should trust a “restoration” of the gospel.

 

The world already had a gospel in the Bible when Smith restored the gospel. Doesn’t the restoration mean the restored gospel is different than the gospel people see just by looking at the Bible? Even if the restored only adds doctrines to the gospel of the Bible, that’s still a different gospel. So why doesn’t the restored gospel fall under Paul’s warning? What was Paul talking about?

 

John gives an example of how we can recognize a false teacher. In his case, the false teachers were saying Jesus didn’t come in the flesh. That doesn’t mean that’s the extent of the model of testing teachers. There are many different gospels today that teach Jesus came in the flesh, but they can’t all be from God. The general principle in John’s model, just like Paul’s, is to reject a teaching if it doesn’t match the doctrines we already have in scripture.

 

How do Paul’s and John’s model of testing teachers fit with the LDS keys for discerning true and false prophets?

And yet John prophecies that an angel would come with the gospel. Should we ignore that? And if the angel hasn't come should we not be expecting him to come?

You're verses from John are just more reason to believe Joseph Smith and He testified that Christ came. Rev 19:10 identifies.how we can know the spirit of prophecy

[carbon dioxide]

Notamormon

 

The Church does teach the same gospel that Paul and Peter preached.  We agree with Paul and Peter.  We do use the New Testament as part of our standard works.  The restoration does not have to do so much with the restoration of the gospel (even though parts had been perverted through the centuries) but the restoration of the priesthood that taken away.  One can start their own church and accept every single doctrine that the LDS Church teaches but that Church would be a dead church being no more valid than any other Church without the priesthood. 

[mfbukowski]

I’ve been meeting with some missionaries recently and the issue of praying about the restored gospel has come up. I did some extra searches on it and found this article, http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests

 

It certainly cites some good verses, but many of them don’t even talk about false prophets/teachers at all. Shouldn’t these verses also be part of how we discern truth from false teachings?

 

Galatians 1:8-9

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

 

1 John 4:1-3

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

 

They actually address the issue of how we recognize false prophets, so shouldn’t these verses be some of our primary sources on the issue? What do they mean? How can we apply the principles in these verses to modern questions about truth?

 

Paul is putting an extreme amount of faith and trust in the reliability of the gospel. He even puts himself, the other apostles and all men under the authority of the gospel he already gave them. He certainly doesn’t act like that gospel would soon be lost. He doesn’t give an out to explain why anyone should trust a “restoration” of the gospel.

 

The world already had a gospel in the Bible when Smith restored the gospel. Doesn’t the restoration mean the restored gospel is different than the gospel people see just by looking at the Bible? Even if the restored only adds doctrines to the gospel of the Bible, that’s still a different gospel. So why doesn’t the restored gospel fall under Paul’s warning? What was Paul talking about?

 

John gives an example of how we can recognize a false teacher. In his case, the false teachers were saying Jesus didn’t come in the flesh. That doesn’t mean that’s the extent of the model of testing teachers. There are many different gospels today that teach Jesus came in the flesh, but they can’t all be from God. The general principle in John’s model, just like Paul’s, is to reject a teaching if it doesn’t match the doctrines we already have in scripture.

 

How do Paul’s and John’s model of testing teachers fit with the LDS keys for discerning true and false prophets?

That's all nice but why should we believe the bible as being the criteria for selecting prophets in the first place?

 

That is circular reasoning.

 

The bible says we should follow the bible because the bible says we should follow the bible.

 

Can you see there is a little problem there??

 

THERE HAS TO BE AN OUTSIDE CHANNEL DIRECTLY TO GOD TO CONFIRM THAT THE BIBLE AND OTHER SCRIPTURES ARE INDEED "SCRIPTURES" THAT HE WANTS US TO FOLLOW, OR IT IS ALL CIRCULAR.

 

pardon my yeling but everyone always seems to miss this point.

 

"If anyone lack wisdom....."   THAT is what started it all- THIS VERY QUESTION.

 

HOW DO WE KNOW THE BIBLE IS RIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE?

 

There is no getting around that question and the only answer is direct personal revelation.  THAT is the only possible answer.

 

That makes us all prophets, as confirmed itself in scripture that a testimony of Christ is "the spirit of prophecy"

Edited March 7, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

No one can get around that question.  That is the bottom line, period, end of story. James 1:5,  Moroni 10: 4-5 and Alma 32.   It's all right there.

Revelation 11:19

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

We do not worship the bible, we do not worship prophets or what they tell us.

Worship God and what HE tells you to worship

Edited March 7, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

The kingdom of heaven is within yourself and that is where you find it.

 

Enough preaching.     Sorry. 

[NotaMormon]

In Paul's day, the Galatians and others could look to the original apostles and seventies as a contemporary, vital organization. In the contemporary times, that verse is often directed at Mormons based on the untested assumption that what any particular group already believes is identical to what Paul has preached and is therefore a viable standard against which to judge the LDS. And that often devolves to a cliched set of arguments, amounting to saying that "Because the Mormons are "Not us" you can reject them uncritically, and certainly don't need to bother with the other 27 Biblical tests for discerning true and false prophets."  Testing comprehensively against the full range has the unsettling effect of moving the argument into a different set of questions, and raises the issue of "Why us?  Do we actually teach the same understanding as did the original apostles, or, might a restoration be necessary?"  It happens that I did list the Galatians verses under Character of Teaching.

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests/Jesus_come_in_the_flesh

 

 

And I did include 1 John 4:2 on the necessity of teaching the resurrection in the flesh.

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests/Jesus_come_in_the_flesh

 

So, I did include those verses in my essay.  One of the things that still surprises me is that anyone could have done what I did in collecting these tests, and no one had.  Mormon claims are rarely tested in this way, but are most often dismissed as "not what we believe, which is so obviously the correct way that we ought not even imagine the possibility of testing ourselves, checking our own eyes for beams, let alone the necessity of doing so in order to see clearly."

 

FWIW

 

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Why do you believe there are 27 tests of true and false prophets when most of the verses don't mention the issue?

 

Those two links are to the same thing. I checked again twice and 'Character of Teaching' does not mention Galatians. Paul directly addressed the issue of how to recognize false teachers in Galatians 1, yet we should focus on 26 other tests, even though most don't mention false teachers at all?

 

I recommend this book : http://www.amazon.com/Restoring-Ancient-Church-Joseph-Christianity/dp/1893036162/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1425736430&sr=1-1

 

He says things better than I can. I found it a useful tool in understanding more about early church and the divergent views within it. The author is coming from an LDS point of view BUT his references to early church writings will certainly be of interest whether you accept his conclusions or not.

 

The apostasy was gradual but you only have to look at what happened to the church a few hundred years into its existence to see it is a very different body to its first century existence. Most notable is the influence of Greek thought (Hellenisation) into the church as well as the "conversion" of Constantine and the changes that brought.

 

Church history is complex and fascinating! Why did God allow apostasy to happen I just don't know. Just as I don't know why God took thousands of years before He sent Christ to atone for our sins. Throughout the apostasy God was working in people's lives and again I believe you can see God working in situations to allow a full restoration to occur.

 

Light, Love and Peace

An LDS friend actually sent me a similar book a while ago, http://www.amazon.com/Saints-sinners-Christian-history-contradictions/dp/0960409009/ref=la_B001JP7H9C_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1420765170&sr=1-1#customerReviews

 

It does a good job of showing how the Catholic church was corrupted and can't be trusted, but that doesn't mean all churches were corrupt. Like I said, I've seen the verses that say SOME or MANY people would follow false teachers. They don't say the WHOLE church would follow those false teachers. Where does that idea come from?

 

Packer claims the had "no foundation" after the apostles left, but that's not true. All scripture is profitable for teaching, correction, reproof and training in righteousness. Why isn't scripture a foundation?

 

I would say that the more fundamental, general principle they are teaching is to rely upon the witness or testimony of the Spirit of God to recognize and receive the Gospel and Gospel teachings (whether delivered written or “live”), and that by extension that light helps us reject false teachings.

Where is that in the text? What words or phrases in Galatians 1 or 1 John 4 teach us to rely on the witness of the Spirit?

 

We are all mortals. We all make mistakes. Including the Prophets and those that wrote the Bible. IE; Jesus himself didn't write a word of the Bible. So how do we tell what is from God and what is not? The only way I know of is to study, ponder(think deeply about), and ask God through prayer.

 

Apostasy means to fall way. Paul talks about it. For something to be restored it first has to fall away.

 

God won't violate your Agency. He won't force you to do anything. "Chose Ye this day whom Ye shall serve".

 

Because without the Apostasy there could be no Restoration. No, I saw another Angel flying in the midst of Heaven having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,... .

 

The only way I know is to study, ponder(think deeply about) and pray.

When Paul talks about a 'restoration,' why do you believe it's talking about a restoration of the gospel? Those verses don't say anything about the gospel being lost or needing to be restored.

 

Yes, John predicted an angel would preach the gospel. Why should we interpret preach as restore? There's nothing in that passage that suggests the gospel was lost and needs to be restored.

 

If Rev. 14:6 was a prophecy about something that happened in the 1800's, what does the rest of the chapter mean? How do the 144,000, the four beasts and the elder play into that interpretation? Where is Babylon? When did it fall?

Edited March 7, 2015 by NotaMormon

[CV75]

Where is that in the text? What words or phrases in Galatians 1 or 1 John 4 teach us to rely on the witness of the Spirit?

You spoke of John’s and Paul’s model, which is not limited to the five verses you posted (and where is “model” in the text?). For example, see Revelation 11:19 and James 1:5 (respectively); the complete model is built by understanding the text attributable to both of them.

 

Look for Biblical definitions of “gospel” and “doctrine” in the text, post them, and we can discuss the model from there.

[Kevin Christensen]

Why do you believe there are 27 tests of true and false prophets when most of the verses don't mention the issue?

 

Those two links are to the same thing. I checked again twice and 'Character of Teaching' does not mention Galatians. Paul directly addressed the issue of how to recognize false teachers in Galatians 1, yet we should focus on 26 other tests, even though most don't mention false teachers at all?

SNIP

I believe that there are at least 28 Biblical tests for true and false prophets because that is how many distinct tests I have found.  I often have multiple references, and they I typically find verses pointing point at both sides, true and false, which makes the application easy.  I have noticed that the best known test happens to the one that is the most qualified in the scriptures, and the most abused in practice, both in and out of the scriptures. 

 

The two links should have been different. I did try several times.  For some reason, I had trouble getting the reference to show up properly even after several tries.  In the essay I reference Galatians 1 under the heading "Character of Teaching: Teaches of one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all (the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ)"

 

I did try to place a link here, but for no reason I can figure out, the link I past in does not appear when I post.  If you look under the heading, you can see that my essay does indeed include Galatians 1. 

 

Claims a True Prophet must make

 

Revelation and Vision

Witnesses

Chosen by God

Ordained by prophesy and the laying on of hands by those in authority

Teaching of Christ

 

Christ ordained by God to judge all men, and

Teaches belief on him for remission of sins

Testifies that Jesus is "come in the flesh"

Apostles and prophets given "till we all come in a unity of the faith"

Accepts the Biblical God

Character of Teaching

 

Preaches Repentance

Teaches of one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all

Teaches by the spirit, so that your faith stands in the power of God

Opens understanding of the scriptures

Teaching consistent with scripture

Provides knowledge of the heavenly council

Provides knowledge of the Lord's covenant

They teach their followers to expect trials in this life

Personal Character

 

Seeks to please God, not men

Teaches with authority, and not as a scribe

They lead as willing ensamples to the flock, not for filthy lucre

Recognizes and is united with authorized prophets

They admit to being men of passion, like us, liable to sin

Evidences provided

 

God bears them witness with signs and gifts of the Holy Ghost according to his own will

A prophet may do works none other man did.

Teaches that the investigators must keep his words to learn the truth of them.

Prophecy

Teaches that we must pray

Over time, arguments against a prophet fail, and demonstrate confusion

 

My essay recognizes that the perspective of the observer counts for a lot, so I included a section on what the Bible says a person ought to do in order to see truth.  And examples of how Biblical peoples went about rejecting Biblical prophets.   As well as tentative consideration of Joseph Smith.

 

I collected the tests over several years, and eventually came up with a hypertext approach as the best way to introduce people to what is there.  

 

FWIW

 

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Edited March 7, 2015 by Kevin Christensen

[Ham Clam]

I'll leave you a link from the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (a center from our church school Brigham Young University).

Podcast #14 Reconsidering the “Great Apostasy,” featuring Miranda Wilcox and John Young

 

Please look around the rest of the site as well.

[NotaMormon]

You spoke of John’s and Paul’s model, which is not limited to the five verses you posted (and where is “model” in the text?). For example, see Revelation 11:19 and James 1:5 (respectively); the complete model is built by understanding the text attributable to both of them.

 

Look for Biblical definitions of “gospel” and “doctrine” in the text, post them, and we can discuss the model from there.

Rev. 11:19??? Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

 

What does that have to do with truth, let alone true or false prophets?

 

Where does James mention true or false prophets? Why do you assume that verse can be applied to testing a prophet?

 

You're right, Paul doesn't define "gospel" in verse 8 or 9, but that doesn't mean we should downplay Paul's very serious warning. The term "model" isn't there either, but how would you describe it? Can we agree the verses are a method of testing a gospel? How can we move onto testing a gospel if we haven't discussed what Paul's method was?

 

I believe that there are at least 28 Biblical tests for true and false prophets because that is how many distinct tests I have found.  I often have multiple references, and they I typically find verses pointing point at both sides, true and false, which makes the application easy.  I have noticed that the best known test happens to the one that is the most qualified in the scriptures, and the most abused in practice, both in and out of the scriptures. 

 

The two links should have been different. I did try several times.  For some reason, I had trouble getting the reference to show up properly even after several tries.  In the essay I reference Galatians 1 under the heading "Character of Teaching: Teaches of one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all (the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ)"

 

I did try to place a link here, but for no reason I can figure out, the link I past in does not appear when I post.  If you look under the heading, you can see that my essay does indeed include Galatians 1. 

Why do you believe those passages can be used to test a prophet? Most of them aren't talking about the issue of true or false prophets. For instance, Hebrews 5 is about how priests were chosen before Christ, but now Christ is our high priest and vastly superior all other priests before him. There's nothing in the text that suggests it can be used to test of a prophet, unless that person is directly contradicting the teaching in the passage.

 

Okay, that was my mistake for missing the Galatians reference, but posting references to a bunch of verses doesn't mean much. Could you talk a bit about what you think Paul meant?

 

Paul is putting an extreme amount of faith and trust in the reliability of the gospel. He even puts himself, the other apostles and all men under the authority of the gospel he already gave them. He certainly doesn’t act like that gospel would soon be lost. He doesn’t give an out to explain why anyone should trust a “restoration” of the gospel.

 

The world already had a gospel in the Bible when Smith restored the gospel. Doesn’t the restoration mean the restored gospel is different than the gospel people see just by looking at the Bible? Even if the restored only adds doctrines to the gospel of the Bible, that’s still a different gospel. So why doesn’t the restored gospel fall under Paul’s warning? What was Paul talking about?

Edited March 7, 2015 by NotaMormon

[Vance]

Those two links are to the same thing. I checked again twice and 'Character of Teaching' does not mention Galatians.

Oh please!!!

 

Under "Character of Teaching" is a hyperlink called "Teaches of one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all" which takes you to here,

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests/Teaches_one_Lord

 

Which has in the column  "Of False" a hyperlink called "Galatians 1:6-7" which takes you to here,

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/gal/1.6-7?lang=eng#6-7

 

If you were as critical of your own work as you are of others' you would look less silly.

[Vance]

No one can get around that question.  That is the bottom line, period, end of story. James 1:5,  Moroni 10: 4-5 and Alma 32.   It's all right there.

Revelation 11:19

 

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

Oh no.  MFB can't be a prophet because he said "Revelation 11:19" when he quoted Revelation 19:10

 

Curses be upon thee MFB.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Vance

[Vance]

Rev. 11:19??? Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

I guess that must mean that CV75 can't be a prophet either, because he also said "Rev 11:19" when he really meant Rev 19:10.

 

Curses be upon thee CV.

[mfbukowski]

Oh no.  MFB can't be a prophet because he said "Revelation 11:19" when he quoted Revelation 19:10

 

Curses be upon thee MFB.

Caughtcha! 

 

It was late and the old Sysdexlia was kicking in.

 

[NotaMormon]

Oh please!!!

 

Under "Character of Teaching" is a hyperlink called "Teaches of one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all" which takes you to here,

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests/Teaches_one_Lord

 

Which has in the column  "Of False" a hyperlink called "Galatians 1:6-7" which takes you to here,

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/gal/1.6-7?lang=eng#6-7

 

If you were as critical of your own work as you are of others' you would look less silly.

I already said that was my mistake. Plus, I'm asking about verses 8 and 9, not 6 and 7. But none of that explains what Paul was saying or how we should apply it to a test of a prophet.

 

Paul is putting an extreme amount of faith and trust in the reliability of the gospel. He even puts himself, the other apostles and all men under the authority of the gospel he already gave them. He certainly doesn’t act like that gospel would soon be lost. He doesn’t give an out to explain why anyone should trust a “restoration” of the gospel.

 

The world already had a gospel in the Bible when Smith restored the gospel. Doesn’t the restoration mean the restored gospel is different than the gospel people see just by looking at the Bible? Even if the restored only adds doctrines to the gospel of the Bible, that’s still a different gospel. So why doesn’t the restored gospel fall under Paul’s warning? What was Paul talking about?

[Vance]

I’ve been meeting with some missionaries recently and the issue of praying about the restored gospel has come up. I did some extra searches on it and found this article, http://en.fairmormon.org/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests

 

It certainly cites some good verses, but many of them don’t even talk about false prophets/teachers at all. It mentions these verses, but doesn't explain how they fit within the context of testing prophets or teachers.

 

Galatians 1:8-9

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

I always find it interesting that critics ALWAYS stop at verse 9, when verse 12 has the key to understanding.

 

  10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

  11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

  12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

Did Paul get the gospel he preached from scripture?  Did he get it from the Bible?

 

No.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Vance