The Church has $32 Billion in the Stock Market

[PacMan]

22 hours ago, FearlessFixxer said:

what have I or ML done that would lead us to jail?

Before you embarked on this ridiculous crusade, did you bother to research conversion/theft crimes?  Did you bother researching aiding and betting or conspiracy thereto?  Did you bother looking up internet crimes?  Did you bother looking up civil actions for misappropriation or privacy torts?

If you want to expose war crimes, then by all means continue.  But that's not what you do.  You wallow in the hypocritical mud of self-claimed moral superiority to force relinquished transparency in violation of the moral principles of honesty and confidentiality established since time and immemorial.  Such are acts of a moral fraud.  Is that what you are, sir?

Really, what you do is the worst of the worst.  You feed off of people that have violated both ethical and legal standards of confidentiality, if not fiduciary duties.  You are materially assisting tortfeasors, if not criminals.

Like Antonin Scalia noted about his past law clerks "spilling" the workings of the chamber, he said, paraphrasing, that either the information is made-up or you're getting the information from someone who is demonstrably untrustworthy because they have broken their commitment to confidentiality.  Either way, the source should not be trusted.  And neither should you.

The only thing you have to bank on is that the church is not litigious.  Pray the church doesn't change its mind.  I for one would be quite supportive to see your name captioned on a complaint.

For all your obsession of Mormonism, take away at least one thing--the Mormon Creed.  As William Smith noted, it is "mind your business."  Unless, of course, you want to continue proving Joseph Smith's prophetic words true regarding apostate obsessions.

BTW, if you're going to hire an attorney, hire one that knows Utah law.

Edited June 14, 2018 by PacMan

[FearlessFixxer]

16 hours ago, PacMan said:

Before you embarked on this ridiculous crusade, did you bother to research conversion/theft crimes?  Did you bother researching aiding and betting or conspiracy thereto?  Did you bother looking up internet crimes?  Did you bother looking up civil actions for misappropriation or privacy torts?

If you want to expose war crimes, then by all means continue.  But that's not what you do.  You wallow in the hypocritical mud of self-claimed moral superiority to force relinquished transparency in violation of the moral principles of honesty and confidentiality established since time and immemorial.  Such are acts of a moral fraud.  Is that what you are, sir?

Really, what you do is the worst of the worst.  You feed off of people that have violated both ethical and legal standards of confidentiality, if not fiduciary duties.  You are materially assisting tortfeasors, if not criminals.

Like Antonin Scalia noted about his past law clerks "spilling" the workings of the chamber, he said, paraphrasing, that either the information is made-up or you're getting the information from someone who is demonstrably untrustworthy because they have broken their commitment to confidentiality.  Either way, the source should not be trusted.  And neither should you.

The only thing you have to bank on is that the church is not litigious.  Pray the church doesn't change its mind.  I for one would be quite supportive to see your name captioned on a complaint.

For all your obsession of Mormonism, take away at least one thing--the Mormon Creed.  As William Smith noted, it is "mind your business."  Unless, of course, you want to continue proving Joseph Smith's prophetic words true regarding apostate obsessions.

BTW, if you're going to hire an attorney, hire one that knows Utah law.

I will assume that since you have not pointed out a law we have broken that you don't know what you are talking about.  We have done nothing illegal and we take precautions to break the law.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, FearlessFixxer said:

I will assume that since you have not pointed out a law we have broken that you don't know what you are talking about.  We have done nothing illegal and we take precautions to break the law.

Time will tell, I suppose. Meanwhile, you have violated principles of decency and honor.

 

[MorningStar]

I'm enraged. That money should be in a giant piggy bank not earning any interest. Extra money might help people in the future and that is horrible. 

[Walden]

6 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

I'm enraged. That money should be in a giant piggy bank not earning any interest. Extra money might help people in the future and that is horrible. 

What you should be enraged about is that this money could most definitely help people in the present. 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Walden said:

What you should be enraged about is that this money could most definitely help people in the present. 

So, we should sell all our goods and give the proceeds to the poor?  And that's going to help the poor?  I have an idea!  You start.  Let us know how it works out.  

How many trillions of dollars has been handed out achieving Lyndon Johnson's Great Society?  I forget.  And of course we have no more poor among us.  

Now, go back to your pond.

[cdowis]

On 6/8/2018 at 5:26 PM, CV75 said:

@Steve-o, @cinepro, @ALarson, @HappyJackWagon, @rockpond: here are some easily-digestible discussions about Section 70:

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-70-the-lords-steward?lang=eng

https://history.lds.org/article/united-firm?lang=eng

"And an account of this stewardship* will I require of them in the day of judgment," not before the general conference!

"Wherefore, I have appointed unto them, and this is their business in the church of God*, to manage them and the concerns thereof, yea, the benefits thereof."

"Wherefore, a commandment I give unto them, that they shall not give these things* unto the church, neither unto the world..."

Stewardship = their business in the Church = these things = the order, which is why in D&C 104 the common consent is reserved for those in the order, and not general conference! Of course the firm / order was set up for the temporal salvation of the members and the surplus for the Church to use, but that is a different matter than how they used common consent.

I do not remember raising my hand in general conference sustaining you as a general authority,  with the authority AND assignment to decide how to apply the scriptures to the operation of the church.

Did I miss something?  "Wherefore, I have appointed unto CV75, and this is CV75's business in the church of God*, to manage them and the concerns thereof, yea, the benefits thereof."

Edited June 15, 2018 by cdowis

[Walden]

50 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

So, we should sell all our goods and give the proceeds to the poor?  And that's going to help the poor?  I have an idea!  You start.  Let us know how it works out.  

How many trillions of dollars has been handed out achieving Lyndon Johnson's Great Society?  I forget.  And of course we have no more poor among us.  

Now, go back to your pond.

No, not all goods and services, keep enough to run things day to day, month to month, year to year, but $32 billion in stocks and bonds is a bit excessive, no? That sounds like God's plan to you? 

 

Edited June 15, 2018 by Walden
incorrect figure

[Stargazer]

4 minutes ago, Walden said:

No, not all goods and services, keep enough to run things day to day, month to month, year to year, but $32 billion in stocks and bonds is a bit excessive, no? That sounds like God's plan to you? 

 

God?  Doesn't exist, right?  So what are you even talking about?

[Walden]

3 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

God?  Doesn't exist, right?  So what are you even talking about?

Not sure yet, still trying to find the answer...maybe I can look at my stock broker's office to see if God might be there looking in on his Wall Street dividends.

[Stargazer]

12 minutes ago, Walden said:

Not sure yet, still trying to find the answer...maybe I can look at my stock broker's office to see if God might be there looking in on his Wall Street dividends.

You're such an inspiration.

Sorry, I'm getting way too snarky.  Ignore me, I'm being a jerk tonight.

Edited June 15, 2018 by Stargazer

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

You're such an inspiration.

Sorry, I'm getting way too snarky.  Ignore me, I'm being a jerk tonight.

Snarky, huh.  I used to watch a show about him.  Snarky and Hutch.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

So, we should sell all our goods and give the proceeds to the poor?  And that's going to help the poor?  I have an idea!  You start.  Let us know how it works out.  

How many trillions of dollars has been handed out achieving Lyndon Johnson's Great Society?  I forget.  And of course we have no more poor among us.  

Now, go back to your pond.

Well if the argument is that helping the poor will eliminate all the poor you may have a point.  But I don't think that was Jesus' argument since he said we will always have the poor with us.

The real point is whether a Church that clearly has amassed ENORMOUS wealth is doing enough to help the poor.

Keep in mind before I say this I believe it is quite fine in the modern world for a church to build an asset base that will assist it to perpetuate its proclaimed mission in the future, whether I agree with it or not.

Now, that said, given the wealth of the LDS Church, and its likely annual income, it seems it give a pittance of that to help the poor, IF you exclude Fast Offering assistance.

If you include Fast Offering assistance then that changes the picture substantially.  I have many times estimated the LDS church likely FO assistance on an annual basis could be close to $500 million per year.

That changes this argument substantially.

[Stargazer]

Nevermind

[mfbukowski]

On 6/13/2018 at 9:18 PM, Gray said:

Personally I have in mind the system of ethics based on the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. But it doesn't really matter. They could easily be using it incorrectly by any standard you chose, and that wouldn't make the gospel more or less true.

Or they could be using it correctly by your standard, which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The point is it was a vacuous statement on your part.

I choose to believe they're using it correctly you choose to believe they're using it in correctly. Impasse.

No way to determine who is right.

I trust them you don't that's the bottom line.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, MorningStar said:

I'm enraged. That money should be in a giant piggy bank not earning any interest. Extra money might help people in the future and that is horrible. 

Clearly full transparency would call for them dishing out one or two hundred K to each member to put in their mattress. That way we know exactly where the money was.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Walden said:

What you should be enraged about is that this money could most definitely help people in the present. 

I suggest you actually read the thread.

Do you really think no one has suggested that?

Edited June 16, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

So, we should sell all our goods and give the proceeds to the poor?  And that's going to help the poor?  I have an idea!  You start.  Let us know how it works out.  

How many trillions of dollars has been handed out achieving Lyndon Johnson's Great Society?  I forget.  And of course we have no more poor among us.  

Now, go back to your pond.

IOU rep points for that one!

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Now, go back to your pond.

FWIW, I just literally LOL-ed...

[CV75]

2 hours ago, cdowis said:

I do not remember raising my hand in general conference sustaining you as a general authority,  with the authority AND assignment to decide how to apply the scriptures to the operation of the church.

Did I miss something?  "Wherefore, I have appointed unto CV75, and this is CV75's business in the church of God*, to manage them and the concerns thereof, yea, the benefits thereof."

How quickly we forget!

[Gray]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Or they could be using it correctly by your standard, which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The point is it was a vacuous statement on your part.

I choose to believe they're using it correctly you choose to believe they're using it in correctly. Impasse.

No way to determine who is right.

I trust them you don't that's the bottom line. 

Did you carefully read what I was saying? Obviously not. My point was not that they are using it incorrectly or correctly. My point was that there is no connection to that topic and the question of whether or not the gospel is true. If you follow the original conversation I was having before your interjection, you would have had the context to reply coherently.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Gray

[SteveO]

A parable from the critically acclaimed TV series, Fargo:

A rich man opens the paper one day.
He sees the world is full of misery.
He says, “I have money.
I can help.”
So he gives away all of his money.

But it’s not enough.
The people are still suffering.

One day, the man sees another article.

He decides he was foolish to think just giving money was enough.
So he goes to the doctor and says, “Doctor, I want to donate a kidney.”
The doctors do the surgery.
It’s a complete success.
 

After, he knows he should feel good, but he doesn’t, for people are still suffering.
So he goes back to the doctor.
 

He says, “Doctor, this time I want to give it all.”
The doctor says, “What does that mean, ‘Give it all’?”
He says, “This time I want to donate my liver.
But not just my liver.
I want to donate my heart, but not just my heart.
I want to donate my corneas, but not just my corneas.
I want to give it all away.
Everything I am.
All that I have.”
The doctor says, “A kidney is one thing, but you can’t give away your whole body piece by piece.
That’s suicide.”
And he sends the man home.
But the man cannot live knowing that the people are suffering and he could help.
So he gives the one thing he has left.
His life.

[cdowis]

56 minutes ago, SteveO said:

But the man cannot live knowing that the people are suffering and he could help.
So he gives the one thing he has left.
His life.

So what happened to the rest of his body?

Edited June 16, 2018 by cdowis

[sunstoned]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

So, we should sell all our goods and give the proceeds to the poor?  And that's going to help the poor?  I have an idea!  You start.  Let us know how it works out.  

Actually, that was a suggestion that Christ once made to the rich young ruler.

Quote

 

Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

 

Matt. 19:21-22

 

[Scott Lloyd]

42 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Actually, that was a suggestion that Christ once made to the rich young ruler.

Matt. 19:21-22

 

Jesus was calling the rich young ruler to devote his whole time and energy to being His disciple. In essence, that’s what apostles do today when they forsake their professions and livelihoods and pledge to spend the rest of their lives in serving Christ and ministering to God’s children.