The creation of Eve

[theplains]

The Religion 327 - The Pearl of Great Price - Student Manual says President Spencer W. Kimball 
taught Eve was not literally created from Adam’s rib. He said: "The story of the rib, of course, 
is figurative" ("The Blessings and Responsibilities of Womanhood," Ensign, Mar. 1976, 71)."

The scriptural passage suggests a literal physical rib.

Moses 3:21 says, "And I, the Lord God, caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and 
I took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof."

If the rib is not literal, then why did God put Adam into a deep sleep to perform this?

Moses 3:23 - "And Adam said: This I know now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she 
shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man."

If the rib is not literal, then what does it mean that the woman was taken out of man?

Thanks,
Jim

[The Nehor]

Well, first there was Lilith created at the same time as Adam but she was irresponsible so she was sent to hell to be the mother of monsters. Then God created a second woman right in front of Adam but it is hard to love someone you saw grow from nothing (incest taboo) and so she was destroyed too. Not wanting to repeat the mistake God had Adam sleep through the creation of his third woman.

[bcuzbcuz]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Well, first there was Lilith created at the same time as Adam but she was irresponsible so she was sent to hell to be the mother of monsters. Then God created a second woman right in front of Adam but it is hard to love someone you saw grow from nothing (incest taboo) and so she was destroyed too. Not wanting to repeat the mistake God had Adam sleep through the creation of his third woman.

I love it when you go all prophety on us. Your created scriptures are the best.

[mfbukowski]

21 minutes ago, theplains said:

The Religion 327 - The Pearl of Great Price - Student Manual says President Spencer W. Kimball 
taught Eve was not literally created from Adam’s rib. He said: "The story of the rib, of course, 
is figurative" ("The Blessings and Responsibilities of Womanhood," Ensign, Mar. 1976, 71)."

The scriptural passage suggests a literal physical rib.

Moses 3:21 says, "And I, the Lord God, caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and 
I took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof."

If the rib is not literal, then why did God put Adam into a deep sleep to perform this?

Moses 3:23 - "And Adam said: This I know now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she 
shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man."

If the rib is not literal, then what does it mean that the woman was taken out of man?

Thanks,
Jim

Adam was the "first flesh" on the earth and God knew that he needed a companion.  So God made Adam first, but immediately caused him to go into a sleep state.  So technically Adam WAS the first flesh of our kind on the earth, But Eve is his equal.  Mankind cannot exist in one sex.... and we know how that now influences some problems in today's world. BUT women are equal to men so in a very real way they were "twins" created at the same "time"- one might say that Adam was the first just as one twin is always born before the other even though they are of the "same flesh" as man and woman always are supposed to be.

So the rib is symbolic - from the side of the man- indicating there are supposed to be "side by side" forever.

Then Adam NAMES Eve which is a symbolic ritual as well- throughout Genesis we see John1 enacted- just as God creates through "The Word" and Adam names everything, in effect he is helping Jehovah (pre-incarnate Christ) create all things through the Word.

So Adam had to be "first" and yet both had to be equal- and the story solves that problem.  Adam was first yet they are of one flesh- THAT is the upshot of the story of the rib

Disclaimer: This is my personal understanding of the story taught in a fundamentalist paradigm, and not doctrinal 

I think it is important to be able for the sake of communication to be able to speak the language of literalism as well as other perspectives on the gospel in their own language games, none of which capture the full "reality", nor can words ever do that.

[pogi]

27 minutes ago, theplains said:

The scriptural passage suggests a literal physical rib

That is how figurative speech in scriptures work.

For example, was Jonah swallowed by a literal physical whale for three days, as the text suggests, and live to tell the tale?

[mfbukowski]

10 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I love it when you go all prophety on us. Your created scriptures are the best.

Not to mention of a totally alternate universe. 

 

[JLHPROF]

What does it mean in Moses 3:7 
And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

Are men literally made out of the dust (dirt)?  Formed out of clay and life breathed in?  And verse 19 indicates ALL the animals were created the same way.
It is symbolic, just as the creation of Eve is symbolic.

Brigham had it right.
"When you tell me that father Adam was made as we make adobes from the earth, you tell me what I deem an idle tale.... There is no such thing in the eternities where the Gods dwell. Mankind are here because they are offspring of parents who were first brought here from another planet, and power was given then to propagate their species, and they are commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. (Journal of Discourses, 7:285-286)"

And then there is this:

Wilford Woodruff Journal - August 31, 1873: At Paris, Idaho: President B. Young spoke one hour and 18 minutes. In his remarks he said that a man who did not have but one wife in the resurrection, that woman will not be his, but taken from him and given to another. But he may be saved in the Kingdom of God, but be single to all eternity. Mother Eve was the daughter of Adam.

Perhaps the Hebrew language experts on this board can clarify, but I have read that the word for "rib" (tsela) has many meanings, including rib, wooden beam, side,  penis, or any part of anatomy protruding from the body.
The primary proponent of the sexual meaning seems to be this guy.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3377487/God-Eve-Adam-s-PENIS-not-rib-claims-religious-academic.html

Maybe Brigham isn't alone in his thinking.
 

[mfbukowski]

47 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

What does it mean in Moses 3:7 
And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

Are men literally made out of the dust (dirt)?  Formed out of clay and life breathed in?  And verse 19 indicates ALL the animals were created the same way.
It is symbolic, just as the creation of Eve is symbolic.

Brigham had it right.
"When you tell me that father Adam was made as we make adobes from the earth, you tell me what I deem an idle tale.... There is no such thing in the eternities where the Gods dwell. Mankind are here because they are offspring of parents who were first brought here from another planet, and power was given then to propagate their species, and they are commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. (Journal of Discourses, 7:285-286)"

And then there is this:

Wilford Woodruff Journal - August 31, 1873: At Paris, Idaho: President B. Young spoke one hour and 18 minutes. In his remarks he said that a man who did not have but one wife in the resurrection, that woman will not be his, but taken from him and given to another. But he may be saved in the Kingdom of God, but be single to all eternity. Mother Eve was the daughter of Adam.

Perhaps the Hebrew language experts on this board can clarify, but I have read that the word for "rib" (tsela) has many meanings, including rib, wooden beam, side,  penis, or any part of anatomy protruding from the body.
The primary proponent of the sexual meaning seems to be this guy.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3377487/God-Eve-Adam-s-PENIS-not-rib-claims-religious-academic.html

Maybe Brigham isn't alone in his thinking.
 

My wife is still trying to create me out of my own mess.  Does that count?

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Well, first there was Lilith created at the same time as Adam but she was irresponsible so she was sent to hell to be the mother of monsters. Then God created a second woman right in front of Adam but it is hard to love someone you saw grow from nothing (incest taboo) and so she was destroyed too. Not wanting to repeat the mistake God had Adam sleep through the creation of his third woman.

You sound so serious here..it is almost scary..

[CV75]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

The Religion 327 - The Pearl of Great Price - Student Manual says President Spencer W. Kimball 
taught Eve was not literally created from Adam’s rib. He said: "The story of the rib, of course, 
is figurative" ("The Blessings and Responsibilities of Womanhood," Ensign, Mar. 1976, 71)."

The scriptural passage suggests a literal physical rib.

Moses 3:21 says, "And I, the Lord God, caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and 
I took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof."

If the rib is not literal, then why did God put Adam into a deep sleep to perform this?

Moses 3:23 - "And Adam said: This I know now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she 
shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man."

If the rib is not literal, then what does it mean that the woman was taken out of man?

Thanks,
Jim

That the passage is scriptural actually suggests it is figurative.

I suggest that the deep sleep is used to convey that Adam does not know how God links the spiritual and physical creations. We have the keys to do this in a telestial sphere, but Adam didn't have it in the terrestrial sphere, and with regards to an immortal world, we do not have the keys to do this in the form of resurrection.

I also suggest that Adam was not referring to himself when he said, "she was taken out of man." In verses 21-23, there is a difference in the references to '"man" and "the man;" "man" being a conceptual creation and "the man" being Adam specifically. Eve left her father and mother as did Adam to become one flesh with him (verse 24). Both Adam and Eve came from human parents, whatever estate they were first born into. "Woman" was one flesh with "man,' conceptually as a figurative "rib," and then following the eternal pattern of creation, after Adam awoke, she became again one flesh with him as a couple.

 

[Maidservant]

Eve has yet to be created.  We are in the process of doing that here on this planet.  We are not quite done with creating Adam.  And/or he is still asleep.  Adam = humanity.

Some individuals may be at the Eve point, but collectively we are not.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Maidservant

[Jeanne]

20 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

Eve has yet to be created.  We are in the process of doing that here on this planet.  We are not quite done with creating Adam.  And/or he is still asleep.  Adam = humanity.

Some individuals may be at the Eve point, but collectively we are not.

????Are you saying that in your perspective that Adam and Eve are just figurative?  I do...but I would be surprised that anyone here would agree with me.

[Maidservant]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

????Are you saying that in your perspective that Adam and Eve are just figurative?  I do...but I would be surprised that anyone here would agree with me.

My reading and current understanding of Genesis, Abraham, Moses and the temple is that they present a template and a map for our progression previous to this earth adventure, within it, and hereafter it.  Adam and Eve do not even particularly correspond to man and woman, although that is one level; but not necessarily the most critical level.  There is endless information within the template--you can draw out one thing one time; and another different thing another time, by the same device (story/ceremony device).  I would say that this is not my perspective, but the perspective presented to me within the scriptures themselves; but of course in the end I must allow each person to engage with the scriptures on their own and say and think and understand as they will, it would be arrogant for me to maintain otherwise.

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I love it when you go all prophety on us. Your created scriptures are the best.

 

8 hours ago, Jeanne said:

You sound so serious here..it is almost scary..

I didn't make it up. I pulled most of it from old Jewish lore (mostly the Kabbalah) and just added a bit more to it. Some of it I do not remember if I made up or read it.  

[Gray]

17 hours ago, theplains said:

The Religion 327 - The Pearl of Great Price - Student Manual says President Spencer W. Kimball 
taught Eve was not literally created from Adam’s rib. He said: "The story of the rib, of course, 
is figurative" ("The Blessings and Responsibilities of Womanhood," Ensign, Mar. 1976, 71)."

The scriptural passage suggests a literal physical rib.

Moses 3:21 says, "And I, the Lord God, caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and 
I took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof."

If the rib is not literal, then why did God put Adam into a deep sleep to perform this?

Moses 3:23 - "And Adam said: This I know now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she 
shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man."

If the rib is not literal, then what does it mean that the woman was taken out of man?

Thanks,
Jim

If Br'er Rabbit didn't literally make a baby out of tar, why does it say so in the story?

[Jeanne]

12 hours ago, Maidservant said:

My reading and current understanding of Genesis, Abraham, Moses and the temple is that they present a template and a map for our progression previous to this earth adventure, within it, and hereafter it.  Adam and Eve do not even particularly correspond to man and woman, although that is one level; but not necessarily the most critical level.  There is endless information within the template--you can draw out one thing one time; and another different thing another time, by the same device (story/ceremony device).  I would say that this is not my perspective, but the perspective presented to me within the scriptures themselves; but of course in the end I must allow each person to engage with the scriptures on their own and say and think and understand as they will, it would be arrogant for me to maintain otherwise.

Thanks!!  You are so interesting!!

[JAHS]

How do the following statements align with what we read in Genesis and Moses?

Brigham Young:
"Where the gods dwell mankind are here because they are the offspring of parents who were first brought here from another planet and power was given them to propagate their species and they were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth." (Journal of Discourses 7:285-286)

Joseph Smith:
"Now regarding Adam: He came here from another planet, an immortalized Being, and brought his wife Eve with him, and by eating of the fruit of this earth, became subject to death and decay. . . was made mortal and subject to death." - (Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., as recorded by Anson Call and copied by Patriarch John Whitmer)

Were they created on this other planet as described in Genesis and Moses?

[Jeanne]

In the beginning...in the beginning...IN THE BEGINNING!..If you guys don't have Adam and Eve...where is that earthly beginning?? 

[The Nehor]

18 hours ago, pogi said:

That is how figurative speech in scriptures work.

For example, was Jonah swallowed by a literal physical whale for three days, as the text suggests, and live to tell the tale?

Don’t be ridiculous. It was a megalodon and not a whale.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

If Br'er Rabbit didn't literally make a baby out of tar, why does it say so in the story?

I think it had something to do with racism. I had a Disney book and audio tape about that story as a kid. Good story. And now I am a racist.  

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, Maidservant said:

My reading and current understanding of Genesis, Abraham, Moses and the temple is that they present a template and a map for our progression previous to this earth adventure, within it, and hereafter it.  Adam and Eve do not even particularly correspond to man and woman, although that is one level; but not necessarily the most critical level.  There is endless information within the template--you can draw out one thing one time; and another different thing another time, by the same device (story/ceremony device).  I would say that this is not my perspective, but the perspective presented to me within the scriptures themselves; but of course in the end I must allow each person to engage with the scriptures on their own and say and think and understand as they will, it would be arrogant for me to maintain otherwise.

I suspect they were real people but this is also true. Whether or not the accounts are history (and I suspect most are) there is also temple teaching significance within them that God designed for use in teaching His most sacred truths.  

[Storm Rider]

21 hours ago, theplains said:

The Religion 327 - The Pearl of Great Price - Student Manual says President Spencer W. Kimball taught Eve was not literally created from Adam’s rib. He said: "The story of the rib, of course, is figurative" ("The Blessings and Responsibilities of Womanhood," Ensign, Mar. 1976, 71)."  The scriptural passage suggests a literal physical rib. Moses 3:21 says, "And I, the Lord God, caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and he slept, and I took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh in the stead thereof."

If the rib is not literal, then why did God put Adam into a deep sleep to perform this? Moses 3:23 - "And Adam said: This I know now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man." If the rib is not literal, then what does it mean that the woman was taken out of man?

Thanks,
Jim

Hello Jim, you continue to think so deeply about things; I appreciate that.  Speaking my own thoughts - I have always thought of it as Adam actually having his rib removed and God making Eve out of his rib.  Yet, I am aware of others who think that this passage is only speaking in a figurative manner.  The problem for me in that is then we are put in a position to begin picking and choosing what is literal and what is figurative in scripture.  That seems a slippery slope to use for biblical interpretation.  This does not mean it is wrong to think of it as figurative passage, just that we need to be very cautious when making such conclusions about scripture.

I admit that I am a pretty simple fellow - when I open the scriptures I tend to believe what is written given the context of the scripture itself. There are certainly allegories, symbolisms, similes, and stories found in scripture. It is just that I am pretty cautious about making that deduction. 

Your question seems to be why President Kimball took such a position; I suspect that in his study of the scripture he made such a deduction.  We are not privy to his logic or who he got to that conclusion. Also, it is not presented as revelation; it is just his thoughts. This is where I am, again, literal. If a prophet does not define where his statement came from, "Thus saith the Lord....", then my take-a-away is that he is speaking as a man.  I am invited to study it, contemplate what has been said, and if it strengthens my relationship with Father and Son then I am free to accept it.  If not, then I am just as free to ignore it. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by Storm Rider

[Gray]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I think it had something to do with racism. I had a Disney book and audio tape about that story as a kid. Good story. And now I am a racist.  

Nah. The stories originate in Africa. They're great stories, and they came way before Disney. Also related to the trickster God Anansi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anansi

 

[Maidservant]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Thanks!!  You are so interesting!!

Thanks.

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Hello Jim, you continue to think so deeply about things; I appreciate that.  Speaking my own thoughts - I have always thought of it as Adam actually having his rib removed and God making Eve out of his rib.  Yet, I am aware of others who think that this passage is only speaking in a figurative manner.  The problem for me in that is then we are put in a position to begin picking and choosing what is literal and what is figurative in scripture.  That seems a slippery slope to use for biblical interpretation.  This does not mean it is wrong to think of it as figurative passage, just that we need to be very cautious when making such conclusions about scripture.

I admit that I am a pretty simple fellow - when I open the scriptures I tend to believe what is written given the context of the scripture itself. There are certainly allegories, symbolisms, similes, and stories found in scripture. It is just that I am pretty cautious about making that deduction. 

I am not sure which slope is more slippery, picking and choosing which passages are figurative, or assuming that it is all literal.  When the scriptures don't specify which ones are literal and which ones are not, we are left to pick and choose for ourselves. I appreciate the call for caution when interpreting scripture, but I don't see why we should error on the side of it being literal.  That to me seems just as potentially problematic.  I think the safest way to interpret scripture is to keep an open mind and heart and follow the spirit.   In some instances however, like this one, where our spiritual well-being and practical application of the gospel isn't affected one way or the other (if it is literal or figurative), then I don't feel as urgent a need to seek personal revelation on the matter, and spiritual caution and exertion might be better used in more pragmatic ways, and I just follow my gut intuition.  That's how I approach the scriptures anyway.  

Edited February 24, 2018 by pogi