The creation of Eve

[Maidservant]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect they were real people but this is also true. Whether or not the accounts are history (and I suspect most are) there is also temple teaching significance within them that God designed for use in teaching His most sacred truths.  

I think they can both be the case--the template and the real persons. One could likely hold both ideas comfortably. HOWEVER, I have not 'seen' that yet in what I study, that it is TWO real persons only.  Even in the Pearl of Great Price it says that Adam means "many".  Should I accept that? Or discard it?  I accept it.  For me, when I remove the concept that they are real, then there are more questions to ask and more light to find.  For example--what if this planet has been inhabited endlessly, for cycles?  Anyway--WE are real.  We are the adams and eves.

I am also quite tentative about ALL transmission issues, whether relating to this particular story or any scriptural presentation.  In my understanding, the Old Testament was put together at a certain specific point in history, about 600 B.C. in my recollection (could be quite).  I'm not even sure it was an authoritative collection, meaning did the Jewish people actually have the priesthood at that point?; although inspired and God works in mysterious ways anyway through imperfection.  I'm not thinking that these collectors made it up whole cloth, that doesn't make sense to me either (but?)--on the other hand, I don't know how ANYBODY in 600 B.C. would know ANYTHING about the actual origin of man, any more than we do now (in terms of an accurate narrative; not speaking of archeology or anthropology or whatnot--but even those are bits and we make up a conceptual frame to contain the bits).  They, themselves, would be relying on THIS ONE DOCUMENT (was it a document?), and legends and cultural cosmos ideas and so on.  NOBODY SAW ANYTHING AND TOOK A PICTURE.  Those 600 B.C. collectors are in the same position we are, in my mind, as to understanding/lack of understanding of where they are getting this stuff. OR--I don't know yet.  This is still a hole in my study. But--they passed the material on, finding value in it (not necessarily history--did THEY think it was history? I really don't know) and we are still engaging with it.

One can always appeal to revelation, and I'm fine with that, but my personal revelation as I engage with the material is leading me away from the 'real persons' thing--at least at this time.

One could say, well, the prophets have had the revelation on it, so just eat it, but I really don't think that's how gaining understanding and being a Mormon works.  I do acknowledge that many prophets have spoken of Adam and Eve as real and that I am thinking otherwise in the face of that, but I do like to read the scriptures plainly (which in this case, I consider the Adam and Eve story to be PLAINLY about not two people) and let me see where this takes me, ha ha :).

 

[Maidservant]

Just in doing a quick search, I came across two Ensign articles that describe at least the rib portion of the narrative as figurative:

In the Beginning

Christ and the Creation

If you google, you can find Spencer W. Kimball quoted as saying this also.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Maidservant

[Storm Rider]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

I am not sure which slope is more slippery, picking and choosing which passages are figurative, or assuming that it is all literal.  When the scriptures don't specify which ones are literal and which ones are not, we are left to pick and choose for ourselves. I appreciate the call for caution when interpreting scripture, but I don't see why we should error on the side of it being literal.  That to me seems just as potentially problematic.  I think the safest way to interpret scripture is to keep an open mind and heart and follow the spirit.   In some instances however, like this one, where our spiritual well-being and practical application of the gospel isn't affected one way or the other (if it is literal or figurative), then I don't feel as urgent a need to seek personal revelation on the matter, and spiritual caution and exertion might be better used in more pragmatic ways, and I just follow my gut intuition.  That's how I approach the scriptures anyway.  

I often use the analogy of the archer's target with the concentric circles.  That center circle is what is absolutely necessary to know.  The further you move out the less important or the less valuable the knowledge in regards to salvation.  

Yet, I do admit that I have a knee-jerk response when reading scripture to believe what is written.  When a particular scripture hits me in a unique way is when I focus, contemplate, pray, and search for full meaning.

I appreciate your response.

[mfbukowski]

On 2/23/2018 at 4:35 PM, Jeanne said:

????Are you saying that in your perspective that Adam and Eve are just figurative?  I do...but I would be surprised that anyone here would agree with me.

Oh my gosh

It used to say that in the temple ceremony itself!!   You need to get out more. 

 

[mfbukowski]

On 2/23/2018 at 11:56 PM, The Nehor said:

 

I didn't make it up. I pulled most of it from old Jewish lore (mostly the Kabbalah) and just added a bit more to it. Some of it I do not remember if I made up or read it.  

yah them acid flashbacks can get pretty gnarly dude. 

 

[mfbukowski]

On 2/24/2018 at 8:43 AM, Jeanne said:

In the beginning...in the beginning...IN THE BEGINNING!..If you guys don't have Adam and Eve...where is that earthly beginning?? 

Your birthdate. 

 

[Jeanne]

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh my gosh

It used to say that in the temple ceremony itself!!   You need to get out more. 

 

Never been through the Temple...and you guys can't tell me much....this is how I learn..and yeah...I need to get out more..maybe when I retire!

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

Never been through the Temple...and you guys can't tell me much....this is how I learn..and yeah...I need to get out more..maybe when I retire!

I know it's tough, just kidding around a little- hope it was not over the top!

[Jeanne]

5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Your birthdate. 

 

Good one...!!  And may I add that Adam and Eve then...have nothing to do with me ..and my old age.

[mfbukowski]

48 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Good one...!!  And may I add that Adam and Eve then...have nothing to do with me ..and my old age.

Old age is the Apocalypse and then comes the Millennium. 

 

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Old age is the Apocalypse and then comes the Millennium. 

 

Well there you go...I stare at the Apocalypse every morning...looking forward to the Millennnum!!

[Raymond Ellis]

I believe the rib means knowledge like the "flesh" also is symbolic of knowledge. 'A man shall leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two shall be one "flesh".' Flesh means knowledge and the scripture doesn't mean they will physically become one. Since flesh means knowledge then a rib may mean a particular knowledge of some sort that both the husband and wife will share. What about a deep sleep being made on Adam? -- what could this be a metaphor of? What is a "deep sleep"? A dream? A deep state of meditation? It is good to meditate on the symbolic meaning of some scriptures -- even if we cannot see the truth of them -- because it makes us humble.

 The skeleton holds up the body of flesh -- so a rib is a truth that strongly supports the knowledge of the flesh. Maybe a skeleton is the Holy Spirit and the flesh of the body represents partial truths, or lesser truths, that worship the Holy Spirit, skeleton, or rib. These are my suggestions.

God puts visual parables in the Bible that represent truths -- to test our faith. Like the seven flamed candelabra in Zechariah 4.

How do we know that 'flesh' means knowledge? The apostle Paul speaks of milk and meat, milk for babes in Christ and strong meat for the mature in Christ.