Peggy Stack Reports Missionary Numbers Are Still Declining

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

I'm surprised to see you mention infantalization and feminization in the same breath. Maybe you meant to use a different term?

No, but I was trying to express the opposite of traditional machismo/manhood -- the sort of thing Arnold Schwarzenegger stands for -- against being a "girly girl."

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Think about it. When people see the missionaries coming now the first thought for many is to turn off the lights and not answer the door. Instead we would have people walking up to them to thank them for their service. That is when a quick testimony would be the most effective. The missionary might explain how he is spending two years on a Mormon mission serving the Lord by working to improve the lives of others and to learn for himself or herself what God wants them to do. That would be the way to introduce people to the gospel.

 

Also the church could offer a variety of different types of missions, some of would would offer vocational training. Missionaries could come home with the additional bonus of learning and getting experience in a trade.

 

Win win.

I like that idea. Some people are introverts and trying them to be in an extroverted environment, they just don't flourish, if they go at all. I home teach a woman, who served in Japan in the mid 1990's.She is literally the LDS version of a Nun. She got married to this bozo of a guy, they have been on again off again for 15 years now. She should be teaching english to kids somewhere or teaching Japanese in the MTC or singing in choirs in a convent somewhere. But as it is she's trapped

[Gray]

24 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Actually my oldest son preferred it, and said he found the most investigators that way. The only "magic" was that he prayed frequently together with his partner. They would each look at a map and pray about where they should go each time they went out. They typically went to a place they both selected after praying. He found many investigators this way. Once they found an investigator, they would transfer him again, and assign other missionaries to teach the investigator. If there was anything frustrating about it, it was that he didn't get to stay, teach, and baptize the investigator(s). It seems his missionary president was using my son to do the work of finding investigators for other missionaries. We're talking northern California over 2015-1017. Perhaps the rising generation is lacking in faith, but there is no lack of work to be done. 

I guess some people are built for sales, and some are not!

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

No, but I was trying to express the opposite of traditional machismo/manhood -- the sort of thing Arnold Schwarzenegger stands for -- against being a "girly girl."

Like "get to da choppa" instead of get to mom's basement?

[Duncan]

This article just came out, some good stuff! although I can't stand the idea of "quality" people, I know what they are saying but the term sounds so awful IMO

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865694908/Church-leader-wants-missionaries-to-serve-successful-mission-without-interruption.html

[ALarson]

23 minutes ago, Duncan said:

This article just came out, some good stuff! although I can't stand the idea of "quality" people, I know what they are saying but the term sounds so awful IMO

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865694908/Church-leader-wants-missionaries-to-serve-successful-mission-without-interruption.html

Yes, I agree.  But I do get what he is trying to say when he stated:

Quote

“So our goal is to find quality investigators and lead them to repentance and conversion,” Elder Nielson declared. 

However, let me give a real life example of what is taking place (at least in this instance).

Our stake has had very few baptisms over the last couple of years.  Missionaries are depressed over it and almost in a panic to get a baptism.

Enter a man who is a very sharp guy....a healthcare professional and quite successful.  He's more into natural remedies and has ended up having a lot of Mormon clients who come to him.  He's joined many different religions and loves to search out anything spiritual....and is really into that.  He's a super nice guy and very likable.  

So, he gets invited to church (in December) by a few members who are his clients.  He attends church once and starts the discussions, has 1 discussion and says, "Sure...I'd like to get baptized."  

The missionaries (and members he knows) are ecstatic and rush to put together a baptism the week before Christmas (a Wednesday night) and get him baptized.  I was shocked to learn how fast this happened and to also talk to someone that knows him who told me that he had not read the Book of Mormon and had actually laughed when asked about Joseph Smith and said "I barely know who that is!  But this is part of my spiritual journey".

How long do you think he will attend?   He also wasn't informed about tithing....but he thinks the temple "sounds cool".  From what I hear, he's already missed attending church a couple of the weeks since he was baptized.  But it was a baptism for the missionaries and they are starved for success.

I don't know...this just hits me as so wrong.  

Edited January 10, 2018 by ALarson

[Duncan]

8 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Yes, I agree.  But I do get what he is trying to say when he stated:

However, let me give a real life example of what is taking place (at least in this instance).

Our stake has had very few baptisms over the last couple of years.  Missionaries are depressed over it and almost in a panic to get a baptism.

Enter a man who is a very sharp guy....a healthcare professional and quite successful.  He's more into natural remedies and has ended up having a lot of Mormon clients who come to him.  He's joined many different religions and loves to search out anything spiritual....and is really into that.  He's a super nice guy and very likable.  

So, he gets invited to church (in December) by a few members who are his clients.  He attends church once and starts the discussions, has 1 discussion and says, "Sure...I'd like to get baptized."  

The missionaries (and members he knows) are ecstatic and rush to put together a baptism the week before Christmas (a Wednesday night) and get him baptized.  I was shocked to learn how fast this happened and to also talk to someone that knows him who told me that he had not read the Book of Mormon and had actually laughed when asked about Joseph Smith and said "I barely know who that is!  But this is part of my spiritual journey".

How long do you think he will attend?   He also wasn't informed about tithing....but he thinks the temple "sounds cool".  From what I hear, he's already missed attending church a couple of the weeks since he was baptized.  But it was a baptism for the missionaries and they are starved for success.

I don't know...this just hits me as so wrong.  

oh, I agree! Trophy converts is a real problem. Some people, not necessarily this man, like to be the centre of attention and then when it wains, they bug out on the Church. I wonder too about people who waste and wear out a dozen sets of missionaries , asking questions or leading them on before they join vs. people who actually , in sincerity pray and feel the spirit telling them that this is right and you should be a part of it. In saying that though, people like David O. McKay and Brigham Young and a zillion others investigate and pray and pray and get no answers but we want investigators to get answers in 2 weeks. God didn't answer the prayer of a very young David McKay, he did later, but why would he answer others' prayers in so short a time?, I can't figure that out! There is a lady in our Stake who prayed from 1968 to the late 1980's if the Book of Mormon was true and in the late 80's she got her answer

[Thinking]

2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

My guess is that they'll reverse this change, much like they reversed the shift to 1.5 year missions.

The age change will be more difficult to reverse than the length change.

6 hours ago, Thinking said:

The problem is that if the age is moved back to 19 for young men, there will be a one year gap in which not very many new missionaries will receive calls. Oops.

 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Thinking

[stemelbow]

38 minutes ago, Duncan said:

This article just came out, some good stuff! although I can't stand the idea of "quality" people, I know what they are saying but the term sounds so awful IMO

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865694908/Church-leader-wants-missionaries-to-serve-successful-mission-without-interruption.html

 

Quote

“That surge has ended, and now we’re at a point where we have about 68,000 missionaries, and we think we’re going to stay around 68,000 to 70,000 missionaries moving forward.”

Every time they say the surge has ended and they think the number will stay around this point or will increase from that point on, it has dropped again (they said so when there were 85,000 missionaries and again when there were 75,000 missionaries).  But you'd think at some point, they're going to get it right.  Hopefully now is the time.  

[Scott Lloyd]

42 minutes ago, Duncan said:

This article just came out, some good stuff! although I can't stand the idea of "quality" people, I know what they are saying but the term sounds so awful IMO

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865694908/Church-leader-wants-missionaries-to-serve-successful-mission-without-interruption.html

That's my story and we only just now posted it online. You are nothing if not quick!

 

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

oh, I agree! Trophy converts is a real problem. Some people, not necessarily this man, like to be the centre of attention and then when it wains, they bug out on the Church. I wonder too about people who waste and wear out a dozen sets of missionaries , asking questions or leading them on before they join vs. people who actually , in sincerity pray and feel the spirit telling them that this is right and you should be a part of it. In saying that though, people like David O. McKay and Brigham Young and a zillion others investigate and pray and pray and get no answers but we want investigators to get answers in 2 weeks. God didn't answer the prayer of a very young David McKay, he did later, but why would he answer others' prayers in so short a time?, I can't figure that out! There is a lady in our Stake who prayed from 1968 to the late 1980's if the Book of Mormon was true and in the late 80's she got her answer

Exactly.  I also think about what it takes to enter the Catholic church and what a person has to go through (to show how seriously converted they are).

To be honest, I do wonder if this guy partly joined to help his business (get more clients).  I don't mean that in a negative way because he is genuinely a nice guy....but he's trying to build his business too.

He's getting a lot of attention too (right now), but if he goes inactive, it may hurt his business actually.  Tough situation.

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That's my story and we only just now posted it online. You are nothing if not quick!

 

Anything in there about your countdown clock for Mike Reid? 

(Sorry...couldn't resist teasing you a bit.....)

Edited January 10, 2018 by ALarson

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Exactly.  I also think about what it takes to enter the Catholic church and what a person has to go through (to show how seriously converted they are).

To be honest, I do wonder if this guy partly joined to help his business (get more clients).  I don't mean that in a negative way because he is genuinely a nice guy....but he's trying to build his business too.

He's getting a lot of attention too (right now), but if he goes inactive, it may hurt his business actually.  Tough situation.

I was reading about the found of the Japanese Mission and Pres. Grant found the same thing, some people joined to further their business ventures, you have an almost instant clientele, like, "oh, you're a LDS member looking for...well, today is your lucky day!"

[RevTestament]

23 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Yes, I agree.  But I do get what he is trying to say when he stated:

However, let me give a real life example of what is taking place (at least in this instance).

Our stake has had very few baptisms over the last couple of years.  Missionaries are depressed over it and almost in a panic to get a baptism.

Enter a man who is a very sharp guy....a healthcare professional and quite successful.  He's more into natural remedies and has ended up having a lot of Mormon clients who come to him.  He's joined many different religions and loves to search out anything spiritual....and is really into that.  He's a super nice guy and very likable.  

So, he gets invited to church (in December) by a few members who are his clients.  He attends church once and starts the discussions, has 1 discussion and says, "Sure...I'd like to get baptized."  

The missionaries (and members he knows) are ecstatic and rush to put together a baptism the week before Christmas (a Wednesday night) and get him baptized.  I was shocked to learn how fast this happened and to also talk to someone that knows him who told me that he had not read the Book of Mormon and had actually laughed when asked about Joseph Smith and said "I barely know who that is!  But this is part of my spiritual journey".

How long do you think he will attend?   He also wasn't informed about tithing....but he thinks the temple "sounds cool".  From what I hear, he's already missed attending church a couple of the weeks since he was baptized.  But it was a baptism for the missionaries and they are starved for success.

I don't know...this just hits me as so wrong.  

I don't know that it is "wrong" as much as it is very ill-advised. When I joined, I took all the missionary lessons. I got excited about the Church, and joined based mostly upon the Bible. I did not read the BoM except scriptures used to teach, and what I got in SS. Even then it was a process of months. Some people gain a testimony very quickly. Coming to mind is the man in the Netherlands, I think, who prayed to help his neighbor, and heard a voice tell him, "stop the boys on the bikes" while out in his front yard. He did go through the lessons with his neighbor, but I am sure was ready to be baptized quite quickly.

I am glad their investigator was open to being baptized, but as a missionary I would like to see more investigation and commitment to the restored gospel before asking Him to commit to Christ's restored gospel. I think this kind of thing led to very high inactivity rates in Latin America. I am more the "leave no stone unturned" kind of personality. The Lord has spoken to me in this Church, and told me it is His Church, but that doesn't mean it is perfect, or doesn't have things it needs to change, and my personal feeling is that investigators should not be rushed. 

[cacheman]

23 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

 

Every time they say the surge has ended and they think the number will stay around this point or will increase from that point on, it has dropped again (they said so when there were 85,000 missionaries and again when there were 75,000 missionaries).  But you'd think at some point, they're going to get it right.  Hopefully now is the time.  

Additionally...In between Elder Neilson's two different projections, the church reported that the numbers were on a steady upward trend. I don't know how much stock to put into these pronouncements.

Edited January 10, 2018 by cacheman
Spelling

[cacheman]

16 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Anything in there about your countdown clock for Mike Reid? 

(Sorry...couldn't resist teasing you a bit.....)

You shouldn't need to apologize.  Scott made a big deal out of his interpretation of Mike's comment.  He also said he would revisit it when the countdown expired.  I believe that occurred a day or two ago. In retrospect,  it appears that Mike was more correct than anything we've heard from church authorities. 

[clarkgoble]

34 minutes ago, blueglass said:

It's a good idea, to offer more options for missionary term of service from 6mo to 2 years.   Would more young men serve if given the option to serve for 1yr, or 18mo instead of 2 without stigma?   My mother served for 2 years which was common for sisters in the 1970's.

I was more thinking of people already with missionary experience. There six months makes more sense. Now I've probably forgotten enough stuff that it'd be harder. But at 29 most of it was still fresh in my memory. I found on splits I still had most of the discussions memorized and could typically teach them better than the missionaries I was with.

The problem with shorter first time missionaries is the amount of training and experience. That's partially what the 1.5 year change didn't work out. The last six months missionaries were so much more effective and you lost that with the shorter term.

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, cacheman said:

You shouldn't need to apologize.  Scott made a big deal out of his interpretation of Mike's comment.  He also said he would revisit it when the countdown expired.  I believe that occurred a day or two ago. In retrospect,  it appears that Mike was more correct than anything we've heard from church authorities. 

I hadn't paid attention to when the countdown clock was to expire.   Yes, Mike was right about what he stated from what I remember (that the number of missionaries would fall over the next 2 or 3 years...).  

Edited January 10, 2018 by ALarson

[Atheist Mormon]

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Maybe the beginning of the end...calling the missionaries home so the Lord can preach his own sermons.

don't bet on it....you still have to work tomorrow.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Exiled said:

Maybe the apostles could take on a bigger role?

In what sense?  

[Duncan]

They need to update this, or something like that. I would LOVE to know what ever happened to these people

[Teancum]

15 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Maybe the beginning of the end...calling the missionaries home so the Lord can preach his own sermons.

And there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

And Leprechauns are real.

[JLHPROF]

35 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

don't bet on it....you still have to work tomorrow.

That's because I'm in Utah.

Meanwhile in Celebrity Central -

Utah is pleasantly 45 degrees in January.  While the east coast gets frozen, Texas gets flooded, California gets burned then flooded.
Wilford Woodruff is sounding more like a true prophet every day...

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, Teancum said:

And there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

And Leprechauns are real.

According to the interwebs.... (from September)

🔥 California is on fire.
🔥 Oregon is on fire.
🔥 Washington is on fire.
🔥 British Columbia is on fire.
🔥 Alberta is on fire
🔥 Montana is on fire.
🔥 Nova Scotia is on fire.
🔥 Greece is on fire.
🔥 Brazil is on fire.
🔥 Portugal is on fire.
🔥 Algeria is on fire.
🔥 Tunisia is on fire.
🔥 Greenland is on fire.
🔥 The Sakha Republic of Russia is on fire.
🔥 Siberia is on fire.
⛈️Texas is under water
⛈️ India, Nepal, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, experience record monsoons and massive death toll.
⛈️ Sierra Leone and Niger experience massive floods, mudslides, and deaths in the thousands.
🌞Italy, France, Spain, Switzerland, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Bosnia, Croatia, and Serbia are crushed in the death grip of a triple digit heat wave, dubbed Lucifer.
🌞Southern California continues to swelter under triple digit heat that shows no sign of letting up.
🌞In usually chilly August, the city of San Francisco shatters all-time record at 106 degrees, while it reaches 115 degrees south of the city. Northern California continues to bake in the triple digits.
((🌎)) Yellowstone volcano is hit with earthquake swarm of over 2,300 tremors since June, recording a 4.4 quake on June 15, 20017 and 3.3 shaker on August 21, 2017.
((🌎)) 5.3 earthquake rumbles through Idaho
((🌎)) Japan earthquake 6.1 possible tsunami..
((🌎)) Mexico earthquake 8.2 imminent tsunami. Beach lines are receded atleast 50+ meters
🌊Hurricanes Harvey, Irma (biggest ever recorded), Jose and Katia are barreling around the Atlantic with 8 more potentials forming
And last but not least an X10 C.M.E solar flare last night . The highest recorded solar flare ever!
Annnnnnnd now you're all caught up 💯💯
 

Then last week we had snow in Florida, mudslides in California, etc.

Edited January 10, 2018 by JLHPROF

[rongo]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

However, let me give a real life example of what is taking place (at least in this instance).

Our stake has had very few baptisms over the last couple of years.  Missionaries are depressed over it and almost in a panic to get a baptism.

Enter a man who is a very sharp guy....a healthcare professional and quite successful.  He's more into natural remedies and has ended up having a lot of Mormon clients who come to him.  He's joined many different religions and loves to search out anything spiritual....and is really into that.  He's a super nice guy and very likable.  

So, he gets invited to church (in December) by a few members who are his clients.  He attends church once and starts the discussions, has 1 discussion and says, "Sure...I'd like to get baptized."  

The missionaries (and members he knows) are ecstatic and rush to put together a baptism the week before Christmas (a Wednesday night) and get him baptized.  I was shocked to learn how fast this happened and to also talk to someone that knows him who told me that he had not read the Book of Mormon and had actually laughed when asked about Joseph Smith and said "I barely know who that is!  But this is part of my spiritual journey".

How long do you think he will attend?   He also wasn't informed about tithing....but he thinks the temple "sounds cool".  From what I hear, he's already missed attending church a couple of the weeks since he was baptized.  But it was a baptism for the missionaries and they are starved for success.

I don't know...this just hits me as so wrong.  

The missionaries brought up in ward council a woman and said that she had a baptismal date. I asked them why she wants to be baptized, and they didn't know. They looked confused by the question. I told them that I or my wife had gone to give this woman a ride to church three times (at her request), but each time she didn't want to go. She also has a car and lives about a half mile from the building. In talking to her, she has no testimony of the Church, and I have no idea why she would want to be baptized (I suspect welfare convert, as she has requested help a few times). So, I explained to the missionaries: hence, my question: why does she want to be baptized? She also hadn't had a single discussion (she always had reasons or excuses with appointments and begged off). The missionaries were upset with my question, and in their eyes, my attitude. When someone agrees to be baptized, the thinking should be done.  I asked them how she was going to be baptized: she won't come to church, and won't allow them to teach her. 

I've said this before, but our big retention problem is that we baptize many people who, for various reasons having nothing to do with a conviction that the Restoration really happened, agree to be baptized (or that we can get them to agree to be baptized). I would be in favor of much stricter standards for baptism. As it stands, baptismal interviews are kind of like people going to an allergist (who has ever left not being allergic to anything?) or a parent taking a child to the doctor for ADHD (when has a doctor ever told a parent that their child isn't?): there is a 100% chance that it will be approved (if there is a moral issue, then it will be approved after talking to the mission president). 

I think the Brethren would be more upset with the "optics" (bad press and bad PR) of sharply declining baptisms than they would about the fact that there were fewer of them. I would be fine with this, even if essentially only people with a desire to be baptized who really wanted it and asked for it were baptized. 

Men who have served in bishoprics or as clerks know about the "whack-a-mole" with Church records: there are hundreds of people in each ward who a) cannot be found or b) have no interest or belief in the Church. Even wards that assiduously work on this (my ward, using our missionaries as a great resource, manages to find and send people to where they are or to Address Unknown) are continuously inundated with flagged records ("this member has been in Address Unknown for a long time and has been without shepherding") where Salt Lake is simply sending them to the last ward they were in --- and we send them right back after confirming that they still are not there, and haven't been. Whack-a-mole. 

Sharply slowing down convert baptisms in favor of quality would allow the Church to better find and get a handle on this massive group in the records. For those who are really where records say they are, but have no interest, I can live with that. It is what it is. But these low-quality, low-scrutiny baptisms are a major drag on the Church and on morale.