Peggy Stack Reports Missionary Numbers Are Still Declining

[stemelbow]

11 minutes ago, rongo said:

Humanitarian isn't a good finding method. It has value in its own right, but if the Church weans itself off of finding in favor of less-uncomfortable things like that, no one should be surprised when baptisms continue to drop dramatically. When you're not doing missionary work, then there will be less results. For all of the hand-wringing over declining baptisms, it seems obvious to me that this should be the case, since our missionaries do far less finding. 

You may have a point when we consider less baptisms, but apparently the quality of the baptisms is increasing, meaning they don't head for the heals as fast as they used to.  I'm sure it happens still somewhere but fake, made up, or people not knowing they are being baptized doesn't happen like it used to either.  I'm not sure you are correct in that missionary work is any less productive than it used to be, overall.  I'd say the number one factor in decline is missionaries aren't as equipped as they used to be.  When I've gone out with missionaries these days they simply can't relate at all to what people are talking about within Mormonism.  It happened to some extent back in the day, but we were lucky because we could deny or pretend others are lying all day long without serious repurcussions.  They can't do that as much now, even though I see missionaries doing it all the time still.  

To me it's far less about finding and far more about the Church unable to speak to people quite like it used to.  Many life long committed members are up and leaving today too.  It happened before, but now there is far more grounding in the reasons.  There is less hold on the members now then there used to be.  

[stemelbow]

9 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I agree 100% with your thoughts here.  This is on my mind because we have had another missionary return home early just this week and he's a mess (mentally and emotionally).  He missed his friends, he missed his youtube, he missed his cellphone freedom, and he hated what they had him doing ("busy work").  

I'm not sure what the solution is really either.  I do worry about this next generation (I sound so old when I say that ) as these kids are so completely connected by their phones and social media.  They live and breath it (and almost all of them watch youtube nonstop it seems and live through other people's lives that seem so glamorous and fun).  I see their communication skills really going downhill too as they mostly text (with poor spelling, abbreviations and grammar).  Most homes in our ward no longer have land lines, so the youth rarely have to ever speak to an adult and learn proper phone skills, etc.

We have discussed this a lot in our bishopric meetings and we simply don't know how to make any of this better.  We tried telling the youth no cellphones at activities, but they still would sneak them and some would go off and isolate themselves to check their messages or go online.....some even stayed home rather than give up their phones for a few hours a week.

I do like the idea of missions becoming more of service missions (but not sure how successful that would be in bringing new members in....but maybe by example and love that will be exactly what happens).  We also need to stop teaching the youth that missions will be the "best 2 years of your life".  For some that may be true, but it also will be the "hardest 2 years of your life so far". 

I'm seeing quite a difference in those who are coming home early.  My son just graduated last year and a number of his friends have gone and come home.  But in each case, they are really quite healthy, thoughtful kids.  One left after having been in Russia for a couple months.  he left when he realized he was trying to teach them the gospel while ignoring the people's difficult plights.  He simply couldn't live with himself.  left and opted to sign up for humanitarian organizations who are out there trying to help people.  Another left after he realized he wasn't on board with the Church's mission overall--the fight against Gay marriage, and the priesthood ban were listed as reasons.  He's hardly a mess either.  he left got signed up for school and went off to get going, even though his girlfriend whom he had plans to marry broke up with him for coming home.  There are a handful of other kids who have come home early, friends of my son who did not go and does not plan to go.  

Additionally these kids all have us adults following and interacting with them on social media and the phone.  I'm not sure that they are losing on that end, in fact, as I see it they each have far more interactions with adults, far more healthy interactions at that.  'm really quite impressed with them overall.  

But, last year our SP reported that young missionaries aren't able to handle the rigors of a mission.  So I'm sure it's out there as a problem.  

[stemelbow]

I know I've said enough here, but this topic really speaks to me.

I think it's kind of funny we're blaming the kids for not being able to handle being missionaries because of the times they were raised in.  The church through inspiration is trying to make this work, but the inspiration seems to fail at every turn.  maybe it's not the kids but the lack of real inspiration?  Pres Monson was hailed as a great leader in part, in various publications, because he used revelation to come up with the age change.  it was said more missionaries our out there and more people are hearing the message.  But in reality less missionaries seems apparent, and far less converts are being attracted to the Church.  

Maybe, just maybe, it is less about the kids being a problem, and more about the Church not living by revelation, while claiming basic business moves and ideas are revelation.  

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm seeing quite a difference in those who are coming home early.  My son just graduated last year and a number of his friends have gone and come home.  But in each case, they are really quite healthy, thoughtful kids.  One left after having been in Russia for a couple months.  he left when he realized he was trying to teach them the gospel while ignoring the people's difficult plights.  He simply couldn't live with himself.  left and opted to sign up for humanitarian organizations who are out there trying to help people.  Another left after he realized he wasn't on board with the Church's mission overall--the fight against Gay marriage, and the priesthood ban were listed as reasons.  He's hardly a mess either.  he left got signed up for school and went off to get going, even though his girlfriend whom he had plans to marry broke up with him for coming home.  There are a handful of other kids who have come home early, friends of my son who did not go and does not plan to go.  

Additionally these kids all have us adults following and interacting with them on social media and the phone.  I'm not sure that they are losing on that end, in fact, as I see it they each have far more interactions with adults, far more healthy interactions at that.  'm really quite impressed with them overall.  

But, last year our SP reported that young missionaries aren't able to handle the rigors of a mission.  So I'm sure it's out there as a problem.  

Well, I can only report what I see in my own ward with our youth.  My own kids are all older and I did not have to deal with most of this (my youngest was on the tail end of when all kids starting "needing" to have an iphone).  I'm glad that your experience is different and I agree there are no absolutes.

What I put in bold does puzzle me though.  The youth you know welcome having adults following them and interacting with them on their phones?  If so, that's great....seriously.  I do believe that parents have to monitor their kid's phones (especially since they start getting them in elementary school now).   But, I see very few who are teenagers that want many adults reading all their posts and interactions between them and their friends.  I follow many on instagram and have a great relationship with them....but some of those have several different accounts on there too.

Edited January 10, 2018 by ALarson

[blueglass]

we had a stake high priests quorum meeting, and our stake president had just met together with other stake presidents with Elder Bednar for training.   He said it was a little odd, because there was no opening prayer, introductions or formalities.  He just sat on the desk in the front of the room and said - "Alright guys what are the problems you're having - don't hold back".   We have had declining convert baptisms in our stake and it's becoming a big problem as the missionaries look frustrated and bored (at least the ones we had over to our house).   Our stake president asked Elder bednar what we can do to help increase missionary work in our area.  He reported that Elder Bednar, got a bit irate and said he has no idea what to do - that it's your job to receive revelation for your area.  He said that it's the members problem because they don't understand missionary work.  Elder Bednar then told him that in democratic republic of the Congo the members there understand missionary work and they are baptizing 1000's, with one member bringing into the church over 20 of his friends in one year.   Our stake president then turned it over to us to ask us if we had any ideas to help move missionary work forward.  "Every member a missionary".  What are your thoughts on the power of everyday missionaries book by Clayton Christensen?  He has a few good ideas in there.   (Getting a no is a success),  (decoupling your friendship from whether or not they are interested), (inviting others to serve with us, help us with callings, to hear our talks, help our youth), (assign callings to serve as digital missionaries, create blogs), (stop trying to teach doctrine that they're not interested in), (use mormon words freely in conversations), (if someone is not religious, ask sincerely why organized religions have a problem keeping people engaged - which may lead to doctrinal discussions related to the restoration).   One of the issues I see with the book is the lack of frank discussions on church history, and church essay related material which easily comes up if someone is interested in our church and checks in with friends, internet to compare with the presentation the missionaries deliver through preach my gospel.  

Edited January 10, 2018 by blueglass

[CA Steve]

39 minutes ago, rongo said:

Humanitarian isn't a good finding method. It has value in its own right, but if the Church weans itself off of finding in favor of less-uncomfortable things like that, no one should be surprised when baptisms continue to drop dramatically. When you're not doing missionary work, then there will be less results. For all of the hand-wringing over declining baptisms, it seems obvious to me that this should be the case, since our missionaries do far less finding. 

I disagree with most of what you wrote here. 

If the point of missionary is to convert people, as opposed to just baptizing them, I believe that humanitarian work missions would succeed far better than what we are doing now, and in multiple areas. Here is where I think it would be better than the model we are now using.

1. It would eliminate the boredom many missionaries are now dealing with.

2. It would significantly increase the standing of the church everywhere it was employed.

3. Missionaries could look back on their missions and actually see what it is they accomplished during that time.

4. The drop off in activity post mission for missionaries would decrease.

5. Converts attracted to the church as a result of this work would be much more likely to stay and fully participate.

 

In the end, I think two years of actual physical hard work in the service of others would produce missionaries unafraid to continue that sort of work in their civilian life and more willing to continue working within the church itself. In other words they would be more successful both in and out of the church.I also believe that converts brought in by this example would be much more likely to stay converted and active. As far as I know preaching the gospel is much more effective when it is done by example than by mere word of mouth.

 

Edited January 10, 2018 by CA Steve

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Hmm, I thought it was pretty demoralizing. Once I got out on the streets and got a taste for what the work was like, I sank into a deep depression.

Eventually I worked my way through it. People can learn to tolerate almost anything. I did love actually teaching and making connections when it happened. But the door to door sales aspect of the job was terrible.

The old model doesn't work anymore. I agree, the new models sound terrible too. I think the way forward is greater and greater emphasis on humanitarian service.

I think it is location dependent.  I was in the Philippines where the people are incredibly hospitable, friendly, and inviting.  We were mostly invited in, offered food, and had pleasant conversation, trying to build relationships of trust, which often converted to discussions.  People were genuinely interested in you, being American speaking Tagalog.  Tracting was fairly effective over there. Most of my baptisms were from tracting.  Extremely high baptism rates. 

They make you feel like a God over there, it is crazy.  Everywhere we went, we had dozens of the cutest children on earth following us with huge smiles and laughing.  All of the beautiful women wanted to have your baby (hint, hint, Nehor, Duncan, and Kenngo). Being American in the Philippines is the biggest anti-depressant and confidence booster there ever was.  They definitely know how to stroke your ego.  I loved tracting through the beautiful jungles to all the bamboo huts with karaoke music blaring, being powered by a car battery.  In the cities, being out on the streets was the best.  People everywhere, interesting smells and street foods, there was always a vibrant and friendly life to the place, and it was always so easy to talk to people.  This is coming from an introvert.  I loved everything about it.    Coming home, for me, is when I slipped into the depression.  

Of course, my cousin who served in Germany had the opposite experience from me.  It really depends where you go. 

[Duncan]

Some problems with service is the idea that the missionaries can be taken advantage of and get themselves into situations where they shouldn't be. Members and non members ask them to do all kinds of things, fixing roofs on 3 story houses, build a shed(how many can do that?) etc. I like the idea but there are things you have to call a professional for, either that or insure the missionaries in case they get injured. Plus, too it could be seen as manipulative, "we're only doing this to teach you the gospel but we wouldn't normally want to help" balance is needed too

Edited January 10, 2018 by Duncan

[Exiled]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

I know I've said enough here, but this topic really speaks to me.

I think it's kind of funny we're blaming the kids for not being able to handle being missionaries because of the times they were raised in.  The church through inspiration is trying to make this work, but the inspiration seems to fail at every turn.  maybe it's not the kids but the lack of real inspiration?  Pres Monson was hailed as a great leader in part, in various publications, because he used revelation to come up with the age change.  it was said more missionaries our out there and more people are hearing the message.  But in reality less missionaries seems apparent, and far less converts are being attracted to the Church.  

Maybe, just maybe, it is less about the kids being a problem, and more about the Church not living by revelation, while claiming basic business moves and ideas are revelation.  

I think blaming the kids is easy but wrong and can unnecessarily harm them.  Religion is being exposed and that makes a hard sales job even harder.  I'm sure missionaries have to fight a lot of boredom.  The nones are rising, the surge is over, so it is not surprising that the missionary numbers are falling.

[CA Steve]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

One problem with service is the idea that the missionaries can be taken advantage of and get themselves into situations where they shouldn't be. Members and non members ask them to do all kinds of things, fixing roofs on 3 story houses, build a shed(how many can do that) etc. I like the idead but there are things you have to call a professional for, either that or insure the missionaries in case they get injured

Which is why there would be a mission president overseeing missionaries activity. 

[Duncan]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think it is location dependent.  I was in the Philippines where the people are incredibly hospitable, friendly, and inviting.  We were mostly invited in, offered food, and had pleasant conversation, trying to build relationships of trust, which often converted to discussions.  People were genuinely interested in you, being American speaking Tagalog.  Tracting was fairly effective over there. Most of my baptisms were from tracting.  Extremely high baptism rates. 

They make you feel like a God over there, it is crazy.  Everywhere we went, we had dozens of the cutest children on earth following us with huge smiles and laughing.  All of the beautiful women wanted to have your baby (hint, hint, Nehor, Duncan, and Kenngo). Being American in the Philippines is the biggest anti-depressant and confidence booster there ever was.  They definitely know how to stroke your ego.  I loved tracting through the beautiful jungles to all the bamboo huts with karaoke music blaring, being powered by a car battery.  In the cities, being out on the streets was the best.  People everywhere, interesting smells and street foods, there was always a vibrant and friendly life to the place, and it was always so easy to talk to people.  This is coming from an introvert.  I loved everything about it.    Coming home, for me, is when I slipped into the depression.  

Of course, my cousin who served in Germany had the opposite experience from me.  It really depends where you go. 

did you say beautiful women and me? gulp

[stemelbow]

12 minutes ago, blueglass said:

we had a stake high priests quorum meeting, and our stake president had just met together with other stake presidents with Elder Bednar for training.   He said it was a little odd, because there was no opening prayer, introductions or formalities.  He just sat on the desk in the front of the room and said - "Alright guys what are the problems you're having - don't hold back".   We have had declining convert baptisms in our stake and it's becoming a big problem as the missionaries look frustrated and bored (at least the ones we had over to our house).   Our stake president asked Elder bednar what we can do to help increase missionary work in our area.  He reported that Elder Bednar, got a bit irate and said he has no idea what to do - that it's your job to receive revelation for your area.  He said that it's the members problem because they don't understand missionary work.  Elder Bednar then told him that in democratic republic of the Congo the members there understand missionary work and they are baptizing 1000's, with one member bringing into the church over 20 of his friends in one year.   Our stake president then turned it over to us to ask us if we had any ideas to help move missionary work forward.  "Every member a missionary".  What are your thoughts on the power of everyday missionaries book by Clayton Christensen?  He has a few good ideas in there.   (Getting a no is a success),  (decoupling your friendship from whether or not they are interested), (inviting others to serve with us, help us with callings, to hear our talks, help our youth), (assign callings to serve as digital missionaries, create blogs), (stop trying to teach doctrine that they're not interested in), (use mormon words freely in conversations), (if someone is not religious, ask sincerely why organized religions have a problem keeping people engaged - which may lead to doctrinal discussions related to the restoration".   One of the issues I see with the book is the lack of frank discussions on church history, and church essay related material which easily comes up if someone is interested in our church and checks in with friends, internet to compare with the presentation the missionaries deliver through preach my gospel.  

Wow...that's very frustrating sounding.  I think Africa is definitely the new South America (which was the highlighted location for decades but is dropping off considerably).  But sadly, I think the drop in Africa will come more quickly and will probably be more dramatic, hopefully a new darling would emerge.  But I don't see that happening.  Much of Asia is struggling now in terms of Church growth, attendance, and participation.  But that Bednar essentially got upset and blamed the members pretending that Africa is somehow analogous to US areas, is just stupid.  No wonder we are seeing these problems.

[ALarson]

23 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I know I've said enough here, but this topic really speaks to me.

I think it's kind of funny we're blaming the kids for not being able to handle being missionaries because of the times they were raised in.  The church through inspiration is trying to make this work, but the inspiration seems to fail at every turn.  maybe it's not the kids but the lack of real inspiration?  Pres Monson was hailed as a great leader in part, in various publications, because he used revelation to come up with the age change.  it was said more missionaries our out there and more people are hearing the message.  But in reality less missionaries seems apparent, and far less converts are being attracted to the Church.  

Maybe, just maybe, it is less about the kids being a problem, and more about the Church not living by revelation, while claiming basic business moves and ideas are revelation.  

I completely see your point here.  I honestly am not trying to blame the kids, but just being realistic regarding what I've observed.  Of course we have some really great kids in our ward....but even they are very connected through social media and are on their phones nonstop it seems.  I know that is here to stay and I feel we need to find a way to deal with it in a positive manner rather than just complain and criticize the youth.

I do see that some of the (much older) leaders may be completely out of touch with the youth on this too.  I know that I feel that way at times as well (like a very old man ).

Something has to change though or there will be even greater loss of members (especially youth) in the future.  But this is not just a Mormon problem when it comes to youth and organized religion participation. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by ALarson

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, Exiled said:

I think blaming the kids is easy but wrong and can unnecessarily harm them.  Religion is being exposed and that makes a hard sales job even harder.  I'm sure missionaries have to fight a lot of boredom.  The nones are rising, the surge is over, so it is not surprising that the missionary numbers are falling.

Good points.  I'm glad you mentioned the harming them.  You're exactly right.  of course this will also produce more of a the Church is exposed effect wherein more of these from the younger generation will leave instead of taking it.  It's kind of silly to blame the kids if you think about.

"here young kid.  I'll give you very minimal training and send you out into an increasingly knowledgeable world to tell them that they don't know what you know." 

And these kids aren't being told that a simple google search from any of these people will produce more knowledge about the Church then the kid can possibly have.  I've been out with the missionaries over the years and it is nothing less than cute to see them pretend to know what the people are talking about when it comes to the issues.  They seem to feel some need to tell people they know that which they don't, which only comes off as very insecure.  Can't blame the kids for that though.  They are told to avoid learning about what people are talking about and pretend none of it matters.  

 

[CA Steve]

We need to stop blaming the kids. No other generation has undergone such a rapid social change on this scale, and here we are blaming them because they aren't acting like us? Okay, so they don't act like us and their social lives are completely different than ours. We cannot continue to expect that they will adjust to the methods of doing things in an outdated social model. The reality is there may not be an effective way of doing old style missionary work with kids who are part of the Facebook/Twitter/Tweet/Snapchat generation. Another reason, in my opinion, to move the focus to service missions.

[Gray]

14 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think it is location dependent.  I was in the Philippines where the people are incredibly hospitable, friendly, and inviting.  We were mostly invited in, offered food, and had pleasant conversation, trying to build relationships of trust, which often converted to discussions.  People were genuinely interested in you, being American speaking Tagalog.  Tracting was fairly effective over there. Most of my baptisms were from tracting.  Extremely high baptism rates. 

They make you feel like a God over there, it is crazy.  Everywhere we went, we had dozens of the cutest children on earth following us with huge smiles and laughing.  All of the beautiful women wanted to have your baby (hint, hint, Nehor, Duncan, and Kenngo). Being American in the Philippines is the biggest anti-depressant and confidence booster there ever was.  They definitely know how to stroke your ego.  I loved tracting through the beautiful jungles to all the bamboo huts with karaoke music blaring, being powered by a car battery.  In the cities, being out on the streets was the best.  People everywhere, interesting smells and street foods, there was always a vibrant and friendly life to the place, and it was always so easy to talk to people.  This is coming from an introvert.  I loved everything about it.    Coming home, for me, is when I slipped into the depression.  

Of course, my cousin who served in Germany had the opposite experience from me.  It really depends where you go. 

We had a high baptism rate too - people were open and friendly. They would invite you in, give you some water, listen politely, and sometimes get baptized. But the activity rate was like 15%. Is it effective if they come in one door only to immediately leave out the other door?

[blueglass]

15 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Wow...that's very frustrating sounding.  I think Africa is definitely the new South America (which was the highlighted location for decades but is dropping off considerably).  But sadly, I think the drop in Africa will come more quickly and will probably be more dramatic, hopefully a new darling would emerge.  But I don't see that happening.  Much of Asia is struggling now in terms of Church growth, attendance, and participation.  But that Bednar essentially got upset and blamed the members pretending that Africa is somehow analogous to US areas, is just stupid.  No wonder we are seeing these problems.

When members I love are blamed for not doing missionary work, somehow it's not very motivational?   Similar to the "theoretical" talks on how to do missionary work by visiting mission presidents, or general authorities.  It's far more exciting when a mission president/apostle has a teaching pool, and discusses sometimes hilarious, sometimes emotional, sometimes frustrating experiences personally engaging in missionary work while mission president/apostle.  If your going to give a talk on missionary work, then discuss rough and tumble experiences you had engaging with people that past week.  That motivates me because I want to go and try it, even if it's just going on splits.

Edited January 10, 2018 by blueglass

[ALarson]

10 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

And these kids aren't being told that a simple google search from any of these people will produce more knowledge about the Church then the kid can possibly have.  I've been out with the missionaries over the years and it is nothing less than cute to see them pretend to know what the people are talking about when it comes to the issues.  They seem to feel some need to tell people they know that which they don't, which only comes off as very insecure.  Can't blame the kids for that though.  They are told to avoid learning about what people are talking about and pretend none of it matters.  

Yes, this has to be corrected.  Most missionaries are going to be exposed to some of the difficult issues that members have (and many new contacts know about them now too).

But just go online and try to converse with the online missionaries.  Ask them anything about polygamy, Book of Abraham, first vision accounts....and so on. Their response is, just read the Book of Mormon and pray about it....all answers are in there for you.   I know many here will state that a missionary's purpose is not to teach church history and I agree.  But, this is what they are being exposed to now and they need to be at least somewhat informed and knowledgeable about the topics.  I do feel the church is doing better with their seminary and institute lessons.  More could be done though (to teach all members).

Edited January 10, 2018 by ALarson

[Gray]

25 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I disagree with most of what you wrote here. 

If the point of missionary is to convert people, as opposed to just baptizing them, I believe that humanitarian work missions would succeed far better than what we are doing now, and in multiple areas. Here is where I think it would be better than the model we are now using.

1. It would eliminate the boredom many missionaries are now dealing with.

2. It would significantly increase the standing of the church everywhere it was employed.

3. Missionaries could look back on their missions and actually see what it is they accomplished during that time.

4. The drop off in activity post mission for missionaries would decrease.

5. Converts attracted to the church as a result of this work would be much more likely to stay and fully participate.

 

In the end, I think two years of actual physical hard work in the service of others would produce missionaries unafraid to continue that sort of work in their civilian life and more willing to continue working within the church itself. In other words they would be more successful both in and out of the church.I also believe that converts brought in by this example would be much more likely to stay converted and active. As far as I know preaching the gospel is much more effective when it is done by example than by mere word of mouth.

 

100% agreed!

[Exiled]

7 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Good points.  I'm glad you mentioned the harming them.  You're exactly right.  of course this will also produce more of a the Church is exposed effect wherein more of these from the younger generation will leave instead of taking it.  It's kind of silly to blame the kids if you think about.

"here young kid.  I'll give you very minimal training and send you out into an increasingly knowledgeable world to tell them that they don't know what you know." 

And these kids aren't being told that a simple google search from any of these people will produce more knowledge about the Church then the kid can possibly have.  I've been out with the missionaries over the years and it is nothing less than cute to see them pretend to know what the people are talking about when it comes to the issues.  They seem to feel some need to tell people they know that which they don't, which only comes off as very insecure.  Can't blame the kids for that though.  They are told to avoid learning about what people are talking about and pretend none of it matters.  

 

I've often thought that the church is asking kids to do an adult job. Maybe the church should change back to having men go out to proselytize instead of the unprepared kids? Maybe the apostles could take on a bigger role?

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, pogi said:

All of the beautiful women wanted to have your baby (hint, hint, Nehor, Duncan, and Kenngo).

I have a standing offer from my cousin to take me to Japan next time he goes to a martial arts conference with the teachers in his dojo to go with him and get an LDS wife. Maybe it is time to stop seeing that as a form of skeevy sex tourism. Maybe not.

The Missionary situation is a problem. Part of me thinks we need to give up on certain areas like North America and Europe and focus on areas where traditional methods still work.

I do not think pure humanitarian missions are the answer. That path has its own pitfalls. 

[Tacenda]

15 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Good points.  I'm glad you mentioned the harming them.  You're exactly right.  of course this will also produce more of a the Church is exposed effect wherein more of these from the younger generation will leave instead of taking it.  It's kind of silly to blame the kids if you think about.

"here young kid.  I'll give you very minimal training and send you out into an increasingly knowledgeable world to tell them that they don't know what you know." 

And these kids aren't being told that a simple google search from any of these people will produce more knowledge about the Church then the kid can possibly have.  I've been out with the missionaries over the years and it is nothing less than cute to see them pretend to know what the people are talking about when it comes to the issues.  They seem to feel some need to tell people they know that which they don't, which only comes off as very insecure.  Can't blame the kids for that though.  They are told to avoid learning about what people are talking about and pretend none of it matters.  

 

I wonder how the senior missionaries are faring out there. Of course they are sometimes in positions where the work they do is not proselyting at all but working in various jobs that could have been a paying job beforehand in the church. I know of several senior couples like that. I wonder why they don't have more of them in proselyting missions?

Isn't it interesting that we send young men and women out to fight our wars too, and youth out there in no man's land too on missions. I do believe God protects as many as He can, because they go into some pretty scary places. 

I think the men and women, maybe more men, do miss their gaming devices. That might be a biggy. And so many now are aware of the CES letter and the info in that. I can't really say what's happening out there. In my home ward we have several missionaries that are doing really well. I can count on one hand how many returned home early in the last 18 years that I'm aware of. And I read their letters in our Fast Sunday newsletter, they are all doing well, but then again the missionaries are probably counseled to only be positive in their letters sent home.

 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Tacenda

[stemelbow]

31 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I disagree with most of what you wrote here. 

If the point of missionary is to convert people, as opposed to just baptizing them, I believe that humanitarian work missions would succeed far better than what we are doing now, and in multiple areas. Here is where I think it would be better than the model we are now using.

1. It would eliminate the boredom many missionaries are now dealing with.

2. It would significantly increase the standing of the church everywhere it was employed.

3. Missionaries could look back on their missions and actually see what it is they accomplished during that time.

4. The drop off in activity post mission for missionaries would decrease.

5. Converts attracted to the church as a result of this work would be much more likely to stay and fully participate.

 

In the end, I think two years of actual physical hard work in the service of others would produce missionaries unafraid to continue that sort of work in their civilian life and more willing to continue working within the church itself. In other words they would be more successful both in and out of the church.I also believe that converts brought in by this example would be much more likely to stay converted and active. As far as I know preaching the gospel is much more effective when it is done by example than by mere word of mouth.

 

Yep.  Exactly.

[blueglass]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

  Ask them anything about polygamy, Book of Abraham, first vision accounts....and so on. Their response is, just read the Book of Mormon and pray about it....all answers are in there for you.   I know many here will state that a missionary's purpose is not to teach church history and I agree. 

I'm not sure how it could be done to upgrade preach my gospel to provide supplementary material, or bring in the additional church history material?  When I spoke with the missionaries recently about what they thought of the 1832 account of the first vision they looked at me with suspicion and said they're not allowed to read anything that's not on lds.org.   

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

My son elected not to go on a mission, having graduated high school this past year and he is far from a wuss.  I agree, since the age change the number of boys, ti seems, facing the question of whether to go or not have decided not to go.  I would also suggest that the number of boys going and leaving early seems to have increased, although that is mere guesswork based on anecdotal stories told.  I really don't think that means much more than, the walls are cracking quite a bit and the Church more and more is losing it's ability to put fingers in the holes more and more.  

Blaming the members tactic I think works if you want to maintain control and is probably the next best course for the Church to take if it wants to continue in retrenchment.  

So you don't blame shifts in societal patterns of behavior?  That is the infantilization and feminization of the larger society.  I am thinking primarily of America in that, but it may be a worldwide phenomenon, and that Mormons get swept up in that devolution along with everyone else (to a greater or lesser extent).

However, you apparently see this as merely part of a larger pattern of modern problems of all sorts, without the Church being able to deal with them in some effective way.  What are those other holes in the dike which you see threatening the stability and effectiveness of the LDS Church?