Peggy Stack Reports Missionary Numbers Are Still Declining

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I was more thinking of people already with missionary experience. There six months makes more sense. Now I've probably forgotten enough stuff that it'd be harder. But at 29 most of it was still fresh in my memory. I found on splits I still had most of the discussions memorized and could typically teach them better than the missionaries I was with.

The problem with shorter first time missionaries is the amount of training and experience. That's partially what the 1.5 year change didn't work out. The last six months missionaries were so much more effective and you lost that with the shorter term.

So you want those weird dreams I still occasionally have where President Hinckley calls me and asks me to serve again to come true? Yikes....

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So you want those weird dreams I still occasionally have where President Hinckley calls me and asks me to serve again to come true? Yikes....

I LOVE those dreams. I have them regularly.

[JLHPROF]

45 minutes ago, california boy said:

Some earthquake science that may give you a different perspective.

1. It is estimated that there are 500,000 detectable earthquakes in the world each year. 100,000 of those can be felt, and 100 of them cause damage.
2. Each year the southern California area has about 10,000 earthquakes. Most of them are so small that they are not felt. Only several hundred are greater than magnitude 3.0, and only about 15-20 are greater than magnitude 4.0. If there is a large earthquake, however, the aftershock sequence will produce many more earthquakes of all magnitudes for many months.
3. God must love these four states the most
4. From 1975-1995 there were only four states that did not have any earthquakes. They were: Florida, Iowa, North Dakota, and Wisconsin.
5. You missed the boat slightly.  You should have posted this 50 years ago.
6. The largest recorded earthquake in the United States was a magnitude 9.2 that struck Prince William Sound, Alaska on Good Friday, March 28, 1964 UTC.
7. The largest recorded earthquake in the world was a magnitude 9.5 (Mw) in Chile on May 22, 1960.

God hates Alaska the most

1. Alaska is the most earthquake-prone state and one of the most seismically active regions in the world. Alaska experiences a magnitude 7 earthquake almost every year, and a magnitude 8 or greater earthquake on average every 14 years.
2. You missed the year that holds the record number of death by over 40 years. In 1976 there were 697.309 deaths caused by earthquakes.

You can get statistics to say just about anything you want.

1.  

Then what the heck are all the climate change warriors in your California so worried about?
It's all perfectly normal and natural right?

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I LOVE those dreams. I have them regularly.

Better than the ones where I am back in school I suppose.

[california boy]

2 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I don't blame God for anything.  Most things happen due to natural events or man being the cause of it.  God is able to see the events and warns us of them and may even step in and prevent them if man repents. However if man does not repent, he just lets them happen.  What does annoy me is that certain people blame God when bad things happen yet these same people don't care about God or give God the time of day before the natural disaster hits.  We should not expect God to do anything for us if we reject him in our daily lives.  

I would agree that many people read the signs of the second coming wrong.  The world was much worse in the 1930s and 1940s than today.  I believe however the signs of the last days are distinct.  It is not just a random disaster here and there over a period of many years which has always been the case.  It will be a time of much more intense and rapid disasters to the point that we will know that things are fundamentally different.  Its is not business as usual on the earth.  Things have changed.

Well it seems kind of pointless to me to believe that God punishes wickedness through natural disasters when very few people believe that they are caused by supernatural power.  They just think, WOW that was a big one.

But then I also don't think that we are living in a particularly wicked period of time.  You could pick just about any time period in the history of mankind and find iniquity, war, immorality, slavery, etc that would be pretty comparable to today.

[california boy]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Then what the heck are all the climate change warriors in your California so worried about?
It's all perfectly normal and natural right?

Well I think that is just it.  Few people believe that natural disasters are caused by God.  If it is God's way of punishing us, it seems to be lost on most of the population.  Kind of a waste of a good firestorm don't you think?

[carbon dioxide]

29 minutes ago, california boy said:

As to wars, can you name a single year in the history of mankind where there was not a war somewhere on the earth?

Nope.  Though mankind has gotten better at killing larger numbers of people.  Also I can see war being poured out on all nations much more now than in any time in the past.  For one simple reason and I go back to the proposed climate change models.  With climate change one big issue is water and food disruption.  This can cause great problems in any country.  This can easily lead to mass migrations which in turn leads to new conflicts as large numbers of people move into other countries.  The Syrian war may well be a taste of things to come.  It has been proposed that the start of the Syrian war was not just people being upset at Assad but due to a drought.  It caused internal conflict which created massive amounts of refugees.  These refugees have moved into other countries.  When they went to Europe, it created great strain on the nations there.  It got to the point that the EU itself could have collapsed.  Some nations put of fencing and walls and slowed the flow so things did not get a lot worse than it did.  If climate change models are correct, we will see mass migration of millions upon millions of people across the globe. This will cause nations that they go to become under great stress.  We can expect much violence to erupt and wars occurring leading to additional migrations.  The water issue is under reported in the media.  It is not just droughts but the ground water that supplies much of the fresh water in many areas is running out.  Water is being taken out far more rapidly than can be replaced.  We have issues coming up that we have never seen before.  I see no reason to believe the world is prepared for what is coming.

Edited January 11, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[CA Steve]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Then what the heck are all the climate change warriors in your California so worried about?
It's all perfectly normal and natural right?

So can you offer any evidence that California has any more "climate change warriors" per capita than other states?

[california boy]

2 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Nope.  Though mankind has gotten better at killing larger numbers of people.  Also I can see war being poured out on all nations much more now than in any time in the past.  For one simple reason and I go back to the proposed climate change models.  With climate change one big issue is water and food disruption.  This can cause great problems in any country.  This can easily lead to mass migrations which in turn leads to new conflicts as large numbers of people move into other countries.  The Syrian war may well be a taste of things to come.  It has been proposed that the start of the Syrian war was not just people being upset at Assad but due to a drought.  It caused internal conflict which created massive amounts of refugees.  These refugees have moved into other countries.  When they went to Europe, it created great strain on the nations there.  It got to the point that the EU itself could have collapsed.  Some nations put of fencing and walls and slowed the flow so things did not get a lot worse than it did.  If climate change models are correct, we will see mass migration of millions upon millions of people across the globe. This will cause nations that they go to become under great stress.  We can expect much violence to erupt and wars occurring leading to addition migrations.  The water issue is under reported in the media.  It is not just droughts but the ground water that supplies much of the fresh water in many areas is running out.  Water is being taken out far more rapidly than can be replaced.  We have issues coming up that we have never seen before.  I see no reason the world is prepared for what is coming.

Yet there are fewer people starving to death than at any period of time in human history.  

I hear what you are saying.  I really do.  Sure there are problems in the world.  And they are probably going to get worse.  Who knows.  A lot depends on the political will world leaders have to address some of these issues.  I just don't see this period of time to be some sort of unbelievable upswing that can only be attributed to sure signs that the second coming is right around the corner.  Let alone the involvement of God in any of this as a way to get people to repent or to punish them for wickedness.  

[carbon dioxide]

1 minute ago, CA Steve said:

So can you offer any evidence that California has any more "climate change warriors" per capita than other states?

The government is loud about it.  I heard that Utah actually has a higher percentage of electric cars than California. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I see something else.

It appears that the prophets see something else as well:

Quote

“Brothers and Sisters, that’s a vision of the work,” Elder Nielson summarized. “We feel very strongly that there are people who are kept from the truth because they know not where to find it and that there are people who would accept the gospel of Jesus Christ if we just knew who they were. We are working to find the people in the blue house.”

 

[carbon dioxide]

2 minutes ago, california boy said:

Yet there are fewer people starving to death than at any period of time in human history.  

I hear what you are saying.  I really do.  Sure there are problems in the world.  And they are probably going to get worse.  Who knows.  A lot depends on the political will world leaders have to address some of these issues.  I just don't see this period of time to be some sort of unbelievable upswing that can only be attributed to sure signs that the second coming is right around the corner.  Let alone the involvement of God in any of this as a way to get people to repent or to punish them for wickedness.  

The scriptures say that there will be wars, famines, and other things going on.  It does not say that God is causing these things though God obviously can if he wants.  Many of these things are probably caused by the hand of man or natural forces.  God is aware of them but not controlling them.  He warns us of them coming but not likely guiding the vast majority of events.  God is willing to let man and nations destroy themselves if they so choose.

[CA Steve]

5 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

The government is loud about it.  I heard that Utah actually has a higher percentage of electric cars than California. 

I heard that 71% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

There are only so many fish in the lake to catch and adding more fishermen does not increase the number of fish. 

Out of curiosity, I just looked it up at lds.org: our ward's boundaries are roughly 150 km from north to south, 80 km from east to west. Of that area, our missionaries labour in (and all but three ward households are located in) a space about 10 km by 10 km. The three households not included in that area are all within 40 km of where most of us live. The rest is terra incognita. I sometimes look at the map of our ward and consider all the towns that belong to us but are absolutely untouched my missionaries. Someday ... when we have the labourers, both members and missionaries ...

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, california boy said:

Well I think that is just it.  Few people believe that natural disasters are caused by God.  If it is God's way of punishing us, it seems to be lost on most of the population.  Kind of a waste of a good firestorm don't you think?

Oh, they're all just too sophisticated and educated to blame anything on a mysterious sky spirit.
After all, God, if such a being even exists, is surely far too loving and tolerant to ever punish people using natural disasters.
And no natural disaster or act of mass violence has ever induced anyone to prayer or to contemplation of their creator?

[JLHPROF]

22 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

So can you offer any evidence that California has any more "climate change warriors" per capita than other states?

Irrelevant to the discussion, so I'll "retract" the statement.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

After all, God, if such a being even exists, is surely far too loving and tolerant to ever punish people using natural disasters.

I personally don't think it has much to do with punishment. God is loving, and so like any good parent, will sometimes wake His children to an awareness of their dependence on Him.

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I personally don't think it has much to do with punishment. God is loving, and so like any good parent, will sometimes wake His children to an awareness of their dependence on Him.

Agreed.  Punishment was a bit of hyperbole...

[california boy]

54 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

The scriptures say that there will be wars, famines, and other things going on.  It does not say that God is causing these things though God obviously can if he wants.  Many of these things are probably caused by the hand of man or natural forces.  God is aware of them but not controlling them.  He warns us of them coming but not likely guiding the vast majority of events.  God is willing to let man and nations destroy themselves if they so choose.

Good point.  I appreciate your thoughts on this.  

[california boy]

43 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Oh, they're all just too sophisticated and educated to blame anything on a mysterious sky spirit.
After all, God, if such a being even exists, is surely far too loving and tolerant to ever punish people using natural disasters.
And no natural disaster or act of mass violence has ever induced anyone to prayer or to contemplation of their creator?

Since you brought this subject up, do you think this years natural disasters you listed came from God?

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, california boy said:

Since you brought this subject up, do you think this years natural disasters you listed came from God?

God either caused them or allowed them. Do not see a big difference there either.

If God is as powerful as we say natural disasters are God’s equivalent of Superman seeing a missile on the way and saying he is going to let this one go and not prevent it.

[JLHPROF]

13 minutes ago, california boy said:

Since you brought this subject up, do you think this years natural disasters you listed came from God?

I think all natural disasters are the result of the earth's fallen condition.  And yes, I think the more fallen the earth is at any given stage the worse these disasters are.

And I think God keeps them in check as much as he sends them.  I see the earth as a type and shadow of humanity.  Our fallen condition and the earth's aren't so different.

 

[california boy]

45 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

God either caused them or allowed them. Do not see a big difference there either.

If God is as powerful as we say natural disasters are God’s equivalent of Superman seeing a missile on the way and saying he is going to let this one go and not prevent it.

 

32 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I think all natural disasters are the result of the earth's fallen condition.  And yes, I think the more fallen the earth is at any given stage the worse these disasters are.

And I think God keeps them in check as much as he sends them.  I see the earth as a type and shadow of humanity.  Our fallen condition and the earth's aren't so different.

 

Thanks for sharing your views.  It is interesting to see how people view God and His interaction with us here on earth.

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Peppermint Patty said:

Peggy Fletcher Stack reports there are currently less than 67,000 missionaries today. At last year's General Conference it was reported that there were 70,946 missionaries. I wonder if the number will drop even more before the April General Conference.  https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2018/01/10/hundreds-of-mormon-mission-calls-go-out-but-with-a-new-look/

 

What is causing the continued drop in numbers? Is this expected after the surge? What is the predicted number that this will stabilize at? 

Everyone who studies their scriptures, or listens to their Sunday School and Phristhood instructors, are told that in the last days that missionary work will one day end (at least officially with others than members) They will hear and learn that one day the world will become (or Nations will become) so wicked that missionaries will be called home, or at least from that Nation. In fact, it has already happened in Nations at war, or who have fallen into such wickedness that our missionaries have had to be removed. There are also many Nations of the Earth, where missionaries cannot be sent due to violence, wickedness or religious intolerance. Many of those Nations who do not allow "freedom of religion" are in the Middle East, which are not all Muslim, such as Israel. China where the belief system "is" communism, and under tight restrictions, Buddhists, and some Jews who have long been in the land for centuries. For those in such Nations, one must practice their Faith in secret and silence. Also some Nations with few exceptions only allow their own citizens to do missionary work. 

Having said all this, due to the state of the world, more and more will serve in fewer and fewer areas of the world. This has been fortold in both ancient and modern day scripture. It is not an indicator that the Church or Faith is failing, just reflective of the, "signs of the times". For,the faithful, and for the Nations of the Earth who seek "light and truth", it is full steam ahead. The prophecies and promises of scripture and of our leaders will (as Joesph foretold) "go forth boldly and nobly", just maybe not on our timetable. My opinion anyway, is  that there was a time most recently, where missions and missionaries were so plentifully, some due to number of them and some who were awaiting visas,  that mission Presidents did not know what to do with them. Our Ward had six, very bored missionaries, who never got their visas. Some were doing little more than service projects, working at hospitals and little else. Having said that, they loved doing it, and they really enjoyed helping members do Family History work as well. I mean they REALLY  loved helping with Family History. When a member was filled with joy at finding a lost lost relative they had been looking for, the missionaries also took great joy. Because they knew that for the faithful members who attended the Temple often, that the "name" meant a baptism. One in which they played a large in making happen. Every time I saw them they had the "light of Christ" for the service they rendered to so many they did not know, and great joy for the family members they helped to locate. So sure, there may be less missionaries, but not less work. 

With love, your brother...

Bill Lee (Papa)

[readstoomuch]

There are definitely issues with missionary work.  About 10 percent of missionaries seem to be coming home early.  Most of those from mental or behavioral problems.  Not entirely, as there are a few with regular medical disorders such as torn ligaments and other such things.  Some of the missionaries coming back have left the Church.  More than it used to be, as far as I can tell.  This includes my oldest son.  My youngest son is on a mission in Europe and is having a good experience.  Some of the trouble is about what to do during the day.  In modern industrialized countries there is not much to do.  Here stateside it is that way.  The elders can`t see widows or single women without another brother with them.  The sisters we have now are in two wards around us.  They can see widows and sisters during the day from both wards.  Our wards are associated with the local food bank and so this has given the missionaries things to do during the day.  Studies show that missionaries spend at least 10 hours a week in service have 35 percent less depression than those who don’t.  Some mental health professionals have recommended service as well as two pdays a week.  Two pdays a week is not going over with some people, but it could make a difference for some with anxiety or depression.  Until the missionaries can be integrated with the wards more directly I am not sure missionary work will change.  If service could be a bigger part of missionary work, I think eventually people would come into the Church.  No guarantee, but I think service opens doors.  As baptismal rates drop, I don’t think doubling down on members to do more is going to work.  I have thought about all of this stuff for hours, but its hard to make changes happen.  Even when you are a ward missionary or in the bishopric.  So, I see really good things from missionary service.  Then, I have reservations and things I don’t like.