Speaking In Tongue's As Evidence Of Salvation

[Anakin7]

    Today 2 of my Elders/Missionaries in my Ward told me of an encounter they had with a local pentecostal minister this past week who told them they after one is baptized in Jesus name they must speak in tongue's as evidence of there salvation. I shared some brief thought I had with them and thought I would share it with you all to get your thoughts/responses to pass on to them. Thank you in advance.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

  

 

[Jane_Doe]

4 minutes ago, Anakin7 said:

    Today 2 of my Elders/Missionaries in my Ward told me of an encounter they had with a local pentecostal minister this past week who told them they after one is baptized in Jesus name they must speak in tongue's as evidence of there salvation. I shared some brief thought I had with them and thought I would share it with you all to get your thoughts/responses to pass on to them. Thank you in advance.

In the book of Acts, it explains how the gift of tongues was used so that every man could hear the Gospel in his own tongue.  It was not used an to speak in a language not understood by people (what many Pentecostals refer to as "speaking in tongues". It was also never used as test as to whether or not a person is saved, rather the Bible specifies that not every individual receives every gift (aka not every gets the gift of tongues).  

Is there any point in arguing this with the Pentecostal minster?  Not at all.   

[Bobbieaware]

31 minutes ago, Anakin7 said:

    Today 2 of my Elders/Missionaries in my Ward told me of an encounter they had with a local pentecostal minister this past week who told them they after one is baptized in Jesus name they must speak in tongue's as evidence of there salvation. I shared some brief thought I had with them and thought I would share it with you all to get your thoughts/responses to pass on to them. Thank you in advance.

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment/Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

Anakin7

  

 

The prophet Nephi taught a doctrine very similar to the belief held by the Pentecostals. He taught:

13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me. (2 Nephi 31)

And again:

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do. (2 Nephi 32)

So it turns out the Pentecostals agree with the teachings of the Book of Mormon.

[Calm]

Depends on what was meant by "the tongue of angels".  Rather than a different language, it may have simply meant with power and authority. 

 

[Glenn101]

Paul had some things to say on the topic:

Quote

1 Corinthians 12:
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

1 Corinthians 14:
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

In Chapter 12 of 1 Corinthians Paul teaches us that the speaking in tongues is a gift of the spirit and that not everyone will receive that gift (verse 30).

In chapter 14 Paul teaches us that when one speaks in tongues there needs to be an interpreter. Maybe such as at the fabled Pentecost where every man heard the testimonies in their own tongue as Jane_Doe pointed out. As Paul stated, what good does it to speak in an unknown tongue if no one can understand?

But the bottom line is that according to Paul all will not receive the gift of tongues nor the gift of interpretation. There is no scriptural evidence that salvation is contingent upon having that gift.

Glenn

[LittleNipper]

I concur that tongues in not a sign necessary to demonstrate one is saved and more importantly there must be a translation or the whole thing is only a disruption in the church and again it becomes a W O R K and not the G R A C E of GOD.

[Bobbieaware]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Depends on what was meant by "the tongue of angels".  Rather than a different language, it may have simply meant with power and authority. 

 

I intentionally didn’t comment on what I personally believe the prophet Nephi means when he speaks of converts being able to speak with new tongues, deliberately holding my peace on the subject in order to encourage commentary and discussion. The remarkable thing, though, is the fact that Nephi does acknowledge genuine converts to the Lord ARE empowered by the Spirit to speak with new tongues! How much more impressive and effective would it be for LDS members engaged with Pentecostals in dialogue to acknowledge their “new tongues” doctrine is taught and validated on the pages of the Book of Mormon? Rather than deny the validity of their belief in the new tongues phenomenon, how much better to find common doctrinal ground on which both sides can agree?

Edited November 13, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[CV75]

dhsdh eoiweuiru  kjhj i oroerioerio sjjaskjkla

Amen.

[theplains]

https://www.gotquestions.org/gift-of-tongues.html has some good insights.

Jim

[Kenngo1969]

Here's what one PSR had to say about the "Tongue of Angels":

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/04/the-tongue-of-angels?lang=eng

[pogi]

It is interesting to see how our understanding and use of gift of tongues has evolved in the church.  For an excellent history of its use, see:

 http://lds-church-history.blogspot.com/2012/10/speaking-in-tongues.html

11 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

In the book of Acts, it explains how the gift of tongues was used so that every man could hear the Gospel in his own tongue.  It was not used an to speak in a language not understood by people (what many Pentecostals refer to as "speaking in tongues".  

That certainly is the modern teaching and practice of the Church, but it was not always so.  Joseph often spoke (and sung) in tongues, claiming it to be the Adamic or Pure language which nobody understood.  Joseph believed that the restoration included restoring parts of the Adamic language.  He claimed to receive revelation on the name of God in "pure language".  Answer: "Awmen."    "Keywords mentioned in the facsimiles of the Book of Abraham and aspects of the temple endowment ritual were tied to the Adamic tongue."  To witness the early church leaders and members (more popular among women) speak in tongues, would have been similar to witnessing Pentecostals speak in tongues today.  It would have looked like members speaking gibberish.  The practice was first introduced to the Church by Brigham Young:

“When Joseph asked Brigham Young to pray, Brigham spoke in tongues, using strange sounds and unfamiliar words. The others looked at Joseph in some perplexity, for this type of spiritual phenomenon was not common to them. It was Joseph's first experience with the puzzling speech and he called it ‘pure Adamic' and stated that it was ‘of God.' Speaking in tongues spread through the Pennsylvania branches of the church first, then occurred in Mendon, New York. Brigham Young brought it to Kirtland. The practice became a part of the Saints' worship – particularly among women – until well into the next century.”

- King and Newell, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, p. 46

That is just an interesting history of the practice in the church.

But, to the point that speaking in tongues is required as evidence of salvation - There is no evidence that Christ ever spoke in tongues. 

 

[JLHPROF]

Joseph Smith taught many principles relating to the gift of tongues.

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-33?lang=eng

• Joseph Smith then gave an explanation of the gift of tongues, that it was particularly instituted for the preaching of the Gospel to other nations and languages, but it was not given for the government of the Church.
• As to the gift of tongues, all we can say is, that in this place, we have received it as the ancients did: we wish you, however, to be careful lest in this you be deceived. … Satan will no doubt trouble you about the gift of tongues, unless you are careful; you cannot watch him too closely, nor pray too much. May the Lord give you wisdom in all things.
• I read the 13th chapter of First Corinthians [at a meeting held on December 26, 1841], also a part of the 14th chapter, and remarked that the gift of tongues was necessary in the Church; … the gift of tongues by the power of the Holy Ghost in the Church, is for the benefit of the servants of God to preach to unbelievers, as on the day of Pentecost.
• Tongues were given for the purpose of preaching among those whose language is not understood; as on the day of Pentecost, etc., and it is not necessary for tongues to be taught to the Church particularly, for any man that has the Holy Ghost, can speak of the things of God in his own tongue as well as to speak in another; for faith comes not by signs, but by hearing the word of God.
• Be not so curious about tongues, do not speak in tongues except there be an interpreter present; the ultimate design of tongues is to speak to foreigners, and if persons are very anxious to display their intelligence, let them speak to such in their own tongues. The gifts of God are all useful in their place, but when they are applied to that which God does not intend, they prove an injury, a snare and a curse instead of a blessing.
• We have also had brethren and sisters who have had the gift of tongues falsely; they would speak in a muttering, unnatural voice, and their bodies be distorted … ; whereas, there is nothing unnatural in the Spirit of God.
• Speak not in the gift of tongues without understanding it, or without interpretation. The devil can speak in tongues; the adversary will come with his work; he can tempt all classes; can speak in English or Dutch. Let no one speak in tongues unless he interpret, except by the consent of the one who is placed to preside; then he may discern or interpret, or another may.
• If you have a matter to reveal, let it be in your own tongue; do not indulge too much in the exercise of the gift of tongues, or the devil will take advantage of the innocent and unwary. You may speak in tongues for your own comfort, but I lay this down for a rule, that if anything is taught by the gift of tongues, it is not to be received for doctrine.

 

And most interestingly he also taught that "The gift of tongues is the smallest gift perhaps of the whole, and yet it is one that is the most sought after."
Interesting that is is considered the least of the gifts.

[The Nehor]

Eru na- iluvátar. Lait- him ullúme an.

[strappinglad]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Eru na- iluvátar. Lait- him ullúme an.

I am sooooo edified, thanks.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

I am sooooo edified, thanks.

I was going to do Klingon but Elvish has more poetry to it.

[Five Solas]

On 11/12/2017 at 11:32 PM, Bobbieaware said:

So it turns out the Pentecostals agree with the teachings of the Book of Mormon.

It's an interesting idea and approach to engagement, Bobbieaware.  But I would hazard a guess few LDS are going want to seriously explore 2 Nephi in light of the Pentecostal experience.  There's quite a stigma and stereotype attached to "holy rollers" & such.  And confronted by the possibility of such influence on the book's author, the instinct may be to argue "Nephi" must have meant something else--as we see being done here:

On 11/13/2017 at 2:51 AM, Calm said:

Depends on what was meant by "the tongue of angels".  Rather than a different language, it may have simply meant with power and authority. 

And then there's another approach, simply decline to engage, following this advice: 

On 11/12/2017 at 10:59 PM, Jane_Doe said:

Is there any point in arguing this with the Pentecostal minster?  Not at all.  

I'm guessing approaches 2 & 3 (Calm's and Jane_Doe's) are going to prove more popular on the thread than your idea of an engagement that emphasizes BoM commonality with Pentecostals.  But maybe I'm wrong.  We'll see.

--Erik

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

It's an interesting idea and approach to engagement, Bobbieaware.  But I would hazard a guess few LDS are going want to seriously explore 2 Nephi in light of the Pentecostal experience.  There's quite a stigma and stereotype attached to "holy rollers" & such.  And confronted by the possibility of such influence on the book's author, the instinct may be to argue "Nephi" must have meant something else--as we see being done here:

And then there's another approach, simply decline to engage, following this advice: 

I'm guessing approaches 2 & 3 (Calm's and Jane_Doe's) are going to prove more popular on the thread than your idea of an engagement that emphasizes BoM commonality with Pentecostals.  But maybe I'm wrong.  We'll see.

--Erik

My response is simple. Both Nephi and the Pentecostals teach that after conversion to Christ, and the reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost, believers are spiritually empowered to speak with new and holy tongues. This point of common belief might serve as a springboard to possible dialogue in which the particulars of the two approaches to the doctrine (theirs and ours) can be discussed and considered. Since it is the Lord Jesus Christ who promises his true followers that they shall speak in new tongues, is see no reason why the subject should be feared and eschewed.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (Mark 16)

 

[cinepro]

On 11/12/2017 at 10:59 PM, Jane_Doe said:

  It was not used an to speak in a language not understood by people (what many Pentecostals refer to as "speaking in tongues". It was also never used as test as to whether or not a person is saved, rather the Bible specifies that not every individual receives every gift (aka not every gets the gift of tongues).  

 

Let's not forget that for the first 50+ years of the LDS Church, church members would also practice the speaking of "unknown tongues", which was how they understood "the Gift of Tongues."  I think this quote from Teryl Givens applies:

 

Quote

I think there's no question, just as the gifts faded in the primitive Church, so there seems to be a diminishment of the spiritual manifestations and gifts in the restored Church. To some extent, that's a function of any church that becomes institutionalized...normatized over time. And to some extent that was a deliberate strategy on the part of Church leaders who wanted to de-emphasize spiritual gifts.

I think it's a natural process, I think Mormons have accommodated themselves in some ways by changing the lexicon of scriptural resources that they use to identify or define the nature of spiritual experience. For example, instead of focusing on those BoM episodes where we have angelic visitations or interaction with angelic beings, we emphasize those verses that originally were given to Joseph Smith to describe the translation process, that have to do with feelings and impressions and stupors of thought.

And that has become the template, if you will, for revelation. So that's one way Mormons have accommodated themselves to a less charismatic church.

(15:18)

http://www.lifeongoldplates.com/2010/07/fair-podcast-episode-2-terryl-l-givens.html

 

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, cinepro said:

Let's not forget that for the first 50+ years of the LDS Church, church members would also practice the speaking of "unknown tongues", which was how they understood "the Gift of Tongues."  I think this quote from Teryl Givens applies:

I would argue that the gifts seems to have faded because the Saints have stopped seeking them. With one exception: healing.

I agree with Paul though. I would rather have prophecy than tongues.

[Avatar4321]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I would argue that the gifts seems to have faded because the Saints have stopped seeking them. With one exception: healing.

I agree with Paul though. I would rather have prophecy than tongues.

The gift of prophecy is very much alive in the church. I see it every week. Especially fast Sunday

[clarkgoble]

19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I would argue that the gifts seems to have faded because the Saints have stopped seeking them. With one exception: healing.

I agree with Paul though. I would rather have prophecy than tongues.

I don't think they have faded. It's just that the people who have the experiences typically don't share them in large public venues - not even sacrament meeting. I can think of several people with the gift of tongues with a Stake President down in Ecuador.

[clarkgoble]

10 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

My response is simple. Both Nephi and the Pentecostals teach that after conversion to Christ, and the reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost, believers are spiritually empowered to speak with new and holy tongues. This point of common belief might serve as a springboard to possible dialogue in which the particulars of the two approaches to the doctrine (theirs and ours) can be discussed and considered. Since it is the Lord Jesus Christ who promises his true followers that they shall speak in new tongues, is see no reason why the subject should be feared and eschewed.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (Mark 16)

Typically Mormons see the main purpose of the gift of tongues as being able to speak with a language one doesn't know or be able to interpret the same. That's happens fairly regularly and I've heard numerous examples told to me. I've never heard anyone attempt to speak in Adamaic but honestly I'm not sure how helpful that'd be in most cases. I think there were some unique situations at the day of pentecost around the time of the Kirtland Temple. But while it may continue to happen it doesn't seem to be a general thing. I rather suspect those it happens to - perhaps in special situations in the temple - keep it to themselves.

My personal feeling is that many early members simply brought over their pre-existing traditions with glossolalia and simply manifest them when they were feeling the spirit. I'm rather skeptical most of these cases were people actually speaking the language of Adam but rather typical American glossolalia which has been fairly heavily analyzed by scientists. Joseph, as the quotes others have provided, seems to have shared my skepticism.

Edited November 15, 2017 by clarkgoble

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

The gift of prophecy is very much alive in the church. I see it every week. Especially fast Sunday

I see it occasionally in Church but not every testimony is prophecy. Most are not.

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

I don't think they have faded. It's just that the people who have the experiences typically don't share them in large public venues - not even sacrament meeting. I can think of several people with the gift of tongues with a Stake President down in Ecuador.

Of course they are there. I still think many have faded.

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

Typically Mormons see the main purpose of the gift of tongues as being able to speak with a language one doesn't know or be able to interpret the same. That's happens fairly regularly and I've heard numerous examples told to me. I've never heard anyone attempt to speak in Adamaic but honestly I'm not sure how helpful that'd be in most cases. I think there were some unique situations at the day of pentecost around the time of the Kirtland Temple. But while it may continue to happen it doesn't seem to be a general thing. I rather suspect those it happens to - perhaps in special situations in the temple - keep it to themselves.

My personal feeling is that many early members simply brought over their pre-existing traditions with glossolalia and simply manifest them when they were feeling the spirit. I'm rather skeptical most of these cases were people actually speaking the language of Adam but rather typical American glossolalia which has been fairly heavily analyzed by scientists. Joseph, as the quotes others have provided, seems to have shared my skepticism.

Read my earlier post, wherein I directly quote the prophet Nephi on this subject, and then kindy offer your comments on what he had to say about true believers having the power to speak in new tongues.

[MiserereNobis]

On 11/13/2017 at 7:53 PM, The Nehor said:

Eru na- iluvátar. Lait- him ullúme an.

Ol' J.R.R. was a devout traditional Catholic...