Elder Holland pulls story due to being false

[stemelbow]

25 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Wait. My mom is intimately connected with this couple and the story in essence is true. The main part that could be considered untrue is the speed with which the events unfolded. His return to full activity was a very slow process but it can truthfully be said that "some miracles take time" (Art Berg). This man and his wife truly are miracles  in my eyes. 

Wait what? 

Quote

There are inspiring and important missionary lessons in this story. The older brother did indeed leave his home and his family and for many years pursued the lifestyle I described in my talk. During these years his parents lovingly tried to maintain contact, prayed faithfully for him and even sent local leaders to seek after him. However, at the time his younger brother was called to serve as a missionary, the older brother had already returned to Idaho. With the help of missionaries there, he started the difficult and courageous process of changing his life. In time, he would return to full activity and be sealed in the temple, and he would also have a son who would serve a mission.

Are you saying the brother missionary did by happenstance run into his brother in SoCal and thus getting the guy back home, into the Church and married in the temple?  Are you sure your view of it isn't clouded by the family member who made up the events as described? 

What parts are true and what are not? 

[hope_for_things]

47 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I applaud Elder Holland for retracting the story.  I applaud those on this board who have admitted that they were wrong in believing this story and not seeing it for what it was...a false embellished faith promoting story.  However I do have one remaining question for believers.  This false story caused "the spirit Ⓡ" to be felt by those who heard the story.  How exactly can "the spirit Ⓡ" confirm a false story?  Why instead didn't it cause those mission presidents, who heard the story, BS meters to start buzzing and prompt them to start asking questions or wanting confirmation from a first person source, as it did me when I first heard the story?  Doesn't this episode make you want to know if you don't have a blind spot built in to your method for reaching confirmation of a truth?

I have an easy answer.  Because what people experience as the spirit, is not an objective method of confirming facts, rather its an emotional response or experience that is independent of history, facts, and empirical data.  

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

The story, as it was originally told, is a faith promoting story.  Are you suggesting that the story as originally told didn't create the feelings of the spirit in those who heard it?  Sorry but these stories are specifically told because they create feelings in those who hear them...I'm more than happy to be proven wrong however...I was not there when the story was told...so I am making assumptions...but this story in its original format is the typical faith promoting story line with all of the emotional triggers built into it that GA's like to use in their stories to elicit the spirit.  I'm confident that it served its intended purpose and that the spirit was felt

I don't think you are happy to be proven wrong at all.

It seems you are unable to see the world around you as parables sent by God to teach you how to live.   If you can't see the world as parables while simultaneously seeing the utility of science for what it does and the richness of parables for what THEY do and how they function in our lives, you are not getting the message.

You need to understand that the truth exists in "spheres" (D&C 93) and the lessons we learn from life are one kind of "truth" and the findings of science are another kind of "truth".

Maybe President Kimball could help you with that.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1978/09/absolute-truth?lang=eng

 

Quote

 

Experience in one field does not automatically create expertise in another field. Expertise in religion comes from personal righteousness and from revelation. The Lord told the Prophet Joseph Smith: “All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it.” (D&C 93:30.) A geologist who has discovered truths about the structure of the earth may be oblivious to the truths God has given us about the eternal nature of the family.

If I can only make clear this one thing, it will give us a basis on which to build. Man cannot discover God or his ways by mere mental processes. One must be governed by the laws which control the realm into which he is delving. To become a plumber, one must study the laws which govern plumbing. He must know stresses and strains, temperatures at which pipes will freeze, laws which govern steam, hot water, expansion, contraction, and so forth. One might know much about plumbing and be a complete failure in training children or getting along with men. One might be the best of bookkeepers and yet not know anything of electricity. One might know much about buying and selling groceries and be absolutely ignorant of bridge building.

One might be a great authority on the hydrogen bomb and yet know nothing of banking. One might be a noted theologian and yet be wholly untrained in watchmaking. One might be the author of the law of relativity and yet know nothing of the Creator who originated every law. I repeat, these are not matters of opinion. They are absolute truths. These truths are available to every soul.

Any intelligent man may learn what he wants to learn. He may acquire knowledge in any field, though it requires much thought and effort. It takes more than a decade to get a high school diploma; it takes an additional four years for most people to get a college degree; it takes nearly a quarter-century to become a great physician. Why, oh, why do people think they can fathom the most complex spiritual depths without the necessary experimental and laboratory work accompanied by compliance with the laws that govern it? Absurd it is, but you will frequently find popular personalities, who seem never to have lived a single law of God, discoursing in interviews on religion. How ridiculous for such persons to attempt to outline for the world a way of life!

 

The key to understanding religion is to know it is a discipline and a way of life in which we learn more about living that chosen way of life.

It is a commitment to a way of "Being" and a way of "Becoming".

Religion is not about plumbing.

Religion is not about banking.

Religion is not about physics or history.

Religion is a commitment to seeing the world in a certain way which is just as "valid" as other ways of seeing the world, each area of truth in its own sphere.

That is not my idea, it is the idea of many philosophers, including some of the greatest.

If you don't understand that, I would suggest you at least figure out that much of the question since you spend so much of your time here trying to push your way of seeing which has no philosophical justification that you have shown or that I can imagine.  You are dealing in areas you blatantly do not understand and I would encourage you to learn more so that your arguments at least become cogent.

I like you as a person but you drive me nuts!   It's always the same points brought up again and again and again.  That some here also do not understand and confront you as best they can again and again is what it is.  Not many have knowledge in this area, yet all think they are instant experts.  I wish I WAS an expert in this area, but at least I am trying to learn how this all works.

[RevTestament]

17 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

The story, as it was originally told, is a faith promoting story.  Are you suggesting that the story as originally told didn't create the feelings of the spirit in those who heard it?  Sorry but these stories are specifically told because they create feelings in those who hear them...I'm more than happy to be proven wrong however...I was not there when the story was told...so I am making assumptions...but this story in its original format is the typical faith promoting story line with all of the emotional triggers built into it that GA's like to use in their stories to elicit the spirit.  I'm confident that it served its intended purpose and that the spirit was felt

The Spirit leads us towards truth. The spirit may lead  someone into a false church if that is the best option at the time. The Lord spoke to me while I was in the Baptist Church, but that didn't make that the true Church. If the story is accurate that the dogs went and laid down without a command, that can definitely be attributed to the workings of the spirit, and would indeed be something the spirit could testify to as part of a miracle so that this man could find his way back home. I believe that to be perhaps the most "faith promoting" aspect to the story. Nevertheless, I don't believe I ever took sides on this one. I believe there are plenty of true faith promoting stories within the Church without needing to embellish stories, but unfortunately when stories go through multiple listeners they tend to get altered and embellished. It is just the nature of the beast. It doesn't mean if we feel the spirit regarding the truth of a story that we are misled.

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, JulieM said:

I don't know Calm, but I feel this comment is beneath you. Why attack DBMornon here?  

I agree everyone needs to be careful when repeating stories, but I wouldn't put DB in the same category as when Elder Holland speaks to church members.  Just my opinion.

I don't read it as an attack, but as her questioning whether or not DB had really thought about his comment and what it would actually mean, not just for other people but for him included.

DB didn't say that only certain categories of people need to fact check everything before they relay them to others, did he?  (honest question because I don't remember if he put any caveats on that statement).  It seemed like he was saying that everyone needs to make sure they don't pass anything on they haven't checked on and found to be true.

[katherine the great]

5 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

What version of the story have you heard from your mom?

The long and dirty version. Much more detail on his criminal past and much more soul searching over the years before he was able to overcome his drug problem. My mom is in their ward and is very close friends with them. But  he did have a younger brother who he didn't even know of who  was somehow instrumental in his return. I imagine this part of the story is the part that got embellished.  There is also a son who struggled with activity for a long time who is now fully active.  And the wife is a veritable saint according to my mom.  I remember my mom talking about the tattoo thing. Apparently he and his wife are both heavily tattooed and owned a popular tattoo parlor in Boise. To me that was never a big deal because I  work with a lot of archaeologists who are heavily tattooed and I never equated that with personal character.  But at any rate, along with their tattoos they are active temple going LDS people who have been fully embraced by their ward and community and are much loved and admired  for their journey. 

[Duncan]

16 minutes ago, ALarson said:

If you read the missionary blogs and reports of those who heard it, you'll see how powerful it was.

Also, this is what Elder Holland stated himself the last time he told the story (quoted from Scott Lloyd's original article in the DN):

 

I see that but that doesn't square to me, what Johnnie Cake said about the spirit bearing false witness-I took his remarks as saying that the spirit bore witness at the Mission President Seminar while Elder Holland was sharing this story and I asked where do we get that idea from? I read Elder Holland's statements about the Holy Ghost as him saying what he sees the Holy Ghost doing, which who knows what role the HG played in the actual events of these people

[cinepro]

6 hours ago, california boy said:

 

Now I wonder if Scott is going to apologize for my skeptical post on this story.  Not holding my breath.

Maybe you should start a countdown clock?

Edited August 1, 2017 by cinepro

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I have an easy answer.  Because what people experience as the spirit, is not an objective method of confirming facts, rather its an emotional response or experience that is independent of history, facts, and empirical data.  

Almost there!

It is a special kind of emotional response which is very deep and causes you to change your life with certainty that the "emotional response" came from outside you, from God.

It is about changing your life, not about confirming facts- that is exactly right imo.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

7 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

The long and dirty version. Much more detail on his criminal past and much more soul searching over the years before he was able to overcome his drug problem. My mom is in their ward and is very close friends with them. But  he did have a younger brother who he didn't even know of who  was somehow instrumental in his return. I imagine this part of the story is the part that got embellished.  There is also a son who struggled with activity for a long time who is now fully active.  And the wife is a veritable saint according to my mom.  I remember my mom talking about the tattoo thing. Apparently he and his wife are both heavily tattooed and owned a popular tattoo parlor in Boise. To me that was never a big deal because I  work with a lot of archaeologists who are heavily tattooed and I never equated that with personal character.  But at any rate, along with their tattoos they are active temple going LDS people who have been fully embraced by their ward and community and are much loved and admired  for their journey. 

From Elder Holland's retraction:

Quote

However, at the time his younger brother was called to serve as a missionary, the older brother had already returned to Idaho. With the help of missionaries there, he started the difficult and courageous process of changing his life. In time, he would return to full activity and be sealed in the temple, and he would also have a son who would serve a mission.

Perhaps finding out his little brother was serving a mission was the reason the older brother started meeting with the missionaries.

 

Now if you could only tell us how Elder Clark first heard the story...

Edited August 1, 2017 by SeekingUnderstanding

[mfbukowski]

5 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

The Spirit leads us towards truth. The spirit may lead  someone into a false church if that is the best option at the time. The Lord spoke to me while I was in the Baptist Church, but that didn't make that the true Church. If the story is accurate that the dogs went and laid down without a command, that can definitely be attributed to the workings of the spirit, and would indeed be something the spirit could testify to as part of a miracle so that this man could find his way back home. I believe that to be perhaps the most "faith promoting" aspect to the story. Nevertheless, I don't believe I ever took sides on this one. I believe there are plenty of true faith promoting stories within the Church without needing to embellish stories, but unfortunately when stories go through multiple listeners they tend to get altered and embellished. It is just the nature of the beast. It doesn't mean if we feel the spirit regarding the truth of a story that we are misled.

Agree fully.

And there are even naturalistic explanations for that- if you have ever watched Cesar Milan - the "Dog Whisperer" on TV, you will know that dogs respond instantly to a confident, assertive yet calm attitude.  That is documented clear in each of his shows.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Millan

Yes, THAT is as much "the spirit" as anything- it is an invisible, body language "vibe" that communicates attitude.

What you call it depends on if you want to use church language of psychology language.  

But the distinction is "just words"- the same thing said two different ways.

 

[CV75]

50 minutes ago, ALarson said:

As far as the parents' feelings, I'm only going on how I would feel if a rebellious son came home, repented, returned to the church and is now sealed to his wife in the temple.  I might feel some small miracles had occurred in his life.

And, I have no idea why Elder Holland felt sure that the story was true.  We can't even determine who it was he originally heard it from, which would possibly help answer that question.

No.  What's your point exactly?

"Come up" with?  Probably as that was the point he was trying to make by telling this story.

My point is that I doubt that Elder Holland would have heard the story in the first place / the story wouldn’t have been told to him without the embellishments. Hence, some other story or instructional technique would have had to suffice for the mission president audience.

But if he would have heard the story without the embellishments, and decided to use it, there are plenty of places where he could have interpreted and pointed out examples of the Spirit prompting individuals, but probably for an audience other than missionary presidents.

Edited August 1, 2017 by CV75

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

From Elder Holland's retraction:

Perhaps finding out his little brother was serving a mission was the reason the older brother started meeting with the missionaries.

 

Now if you could only tell us how Elder Clark first heard the story...

maybe mormon leaks will tell us in 26 years?

[hope_for_things]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Almost there!

It is a special kind of emotional response which is very deep and causes you to change your life with certainty that the "emotional response" came from outside you, from God.

It is about changing your life, not about confirming facts- that is exactly right imo.

I agree with everything except the assumption that these emotional responses "came from outside of you".  People may feel like this is external, but the evidence so far points to this being an internal experience.  What I would like to see, is religious people not thinking that this evidence about the God/spiritual experience has to be external or its no longer valid (this is an unnecessary false dichotomy.)  It may require newly imagined theology about God since the neuroscience is getting increasingly sophisticated, and so far everything is pointing towards this being an internal experience.  

Do you think this is an important paradigm shift?  Lately I've been thinking that what we need is to re-orient ourselves about what spiritual experience is, and not put constraints on this experience having to be an external exclusively or at all.    

[ALarson]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't read it as an attack, but as her questioning whether or not DB had really thought about his comment and what it would actually mean, not just for other people but for him included.

DB didn't say that only certain categories of people need to fact check everything before they relay them to others, did he?  (honest question because I don't remember if he put any caveats on that statement).  It seemed like he was saying that everyone needs to make sure they don't pass anything on they haven't checked on and found to be true.

I just posted his entire quote a bit ago (DBMormon's statement for reference): 

Quote

 

 Quote

Sadly we should never share false faith promoting stories and we can do that by never repeating a third hand story or any story we are not absolutely sure occurred as we described it

 

 

[katherine the great]

16 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

  Are you sure your view of it isn't clouded by the family member who made up the events as described? 

What parts are true and what are not? 

 No. I can't say my view isn't clouded at all. I just know my mom has talked affectionately about this couple for years and took my brother over there last week to meet them because he had read the story and was interested in hearing it from the source. He came home with a more complete view of the story but  no less inspired by it.  I have always been sensitive with my BS detector and I'm glad that Elder Holland retracted the one part of the story but I still feel that in essence, the more complete story is even more inspiring  because anyone can relate to this man's journey on some level. I think it's a good lesson in accuracy  but I just wanted to share this so no one hopefully discounts the true miracle here.  

[CV75]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Agree fully.

And there are even naturalistic explanations for that- if you have ever watched Cesar Milan - the "Dog Whisperer" on TV, you will know that dogs respond instantly to a confident, assertive yet calm attitude.  That is documented clear in each of his shows.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Millan

Yes, THAT is as much "the spirit" as anything- it is an invisible, body language "vibe" that communicates attitude.

What you call it depends on if you want to use church language of psychology language.  

But the distinction is "just words"- the same thing said two different ways.

 

In the book, “Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are?” by Frans De Wall (renowned primatologist and ethologist). animal cognition is referred to as: “intelligence…!”

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, katherine the great said:

 No. I can't say my view isn't clouded at all. I just know my mom has talked affectionately about this couple for years and took my brother over there last week to meet them because he had read the story and was interested in hearing it from the source. He came home with a more complete view of the story but  no less inspired by it.  I have always been sensitive with my BS detector and I'm glad that Elder Holland retracted the one part of the story but I still feel that in essence, the more complete story is even more inspiring  because anyone can relate to this man's journey on some level. I think it's a good lesson in accuracy  but I just wanted to share this so no one hopefully discounts the true miracle here.  

Thanks.  Re-conversion stories are a dime a dozen.  I mean great for this guy and his family.  I'm sure it was the best thing for them.  But it has happened to death.  What hadn't happened was the missionary by happenstance running into his down and out brother, while on his mission; thus starting him on his journey home and into the Church.  You know the story about the dogs wanting to kill the missionaries and yet being calmed by their sweet spirits and all that?  That was the stuff being challenged, which has turned out to be not true at all. 

[ALarson]

15 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

The long and dirty version. Much more detail on his criminal past and much more soul searching over the years before he was able to overcome his drug problem. My mom is in their ward and is very close friends with them. But  he did have a younger brother who he didn't even know of who  was somehow instrumental in his return. I imagine this part of the story is the part that got embellished.  There is also a son who struggled with activity for a long time who is now fully active.  And the wife is a veritable saint according to my mom.  I remember my mom talking about the tattoo thing. Apparently he and his wife are both heavily tattooed and owned a popular tattoo parlor in Boise. To me that was never a big deal because I  work with a lot of archaeologists who are heavily tattooed and I never equated that with personal character.  But at any rate, along with their tattoos they are active temple going LDS people who have been fully embraced by their ward and community and are much loved and admired  for their journey. 

In one of the versions, tattoos were mentioned (that he had them).  

I think the part in question is whether or not the older brother returned home because of the miraculous intervention of the younger son (by finding him while on his mission).  

[Robert F. Smith]

16 hours ago, DBMormon said:

let me just say.... I was right... I am sure lots of apologies are soon to follow.

Thanks for the update, Bill.  However, it is unseemly for you to crow in imagined victory.  We are all presumably on the path to truth, and it is a communal effort.  Like peer review, it is not "Gotcha!" time, but mutual aid.

[Tacenda]

20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't think you are happy to be proven wrong at all.

It seems you are unable to see the world around you as parables sent by God to teach you how to live.   If you can't see the world as parables while simultaneously seeing the utility of science for what it does and the richness of parables for what THEY do and how they function in our lives, you are not getting the message.

You need to understand that the truth exists in "spheres" (D&C 93) and the lessons we learn from life are one kind of "truth" and the findings of science are another kind of "truth".

Maybe President Kimball could help you with that.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1978/09/absolute-truth?lang=eng

 

The key to understanding religion is to know it is a discipline and a way of life in which we learn more about living that chosen way of life.

It is a commitment to a way of "Being" and a way of "Becoming".

Religion is not about plumbing.

Religion is not about banking.

Religion is not about physics or history.

Religion is a commitment to seeing the world in a certain way which is just as "valid" as other ways of seeing the world, each area of truth in its own sphere.

That is not my idea, it is the idea of many philosophers, including some of the greatest.

If you don't understand that, I would suggest you at least figure out that much of the question since you spend so much of your time here trying to push your way of seeing which has no philosophical justification that you have shown or that I can imagine.  You are dealing in areas you blatantly do not understand and I would encourage you to learn more so that your arguments at least become cogent.

I like you as a person but you drive me nuts!   It's always the same points brought up again and again and again.  That some here also do not understand and confront you as best they can again and again is what it is.  Not many have knowledge in this area, yet all think they are instant experts.  I wish I WAS an expert in this area, but at least I am trying to learn how this all works.

Religion might just be a fairytale? Make it what you want, tell a sweet bedtime story, I get it.

[juliann]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

 

Here's DB's entire statement (instead of just the partial that you quoted above):

Quote

Sadly we should never share false faith promoting stories and we can do that by never repeating a third hand story or any story we are not absolutely sure occurred as we described it.

 

I don't find that to be an "impossible standard" to live.   I think he's correct.

  

I'd agree with that if it was a single standard for all. But even DB relies heavily on what he has heard.

Not to mention that even historical scholarship would die. That is pretty much what they have to work with and limited means to verify.  

[pogi]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The part of the miraculous story that was fabricated was the miracle part

I'm a bit uncomfortable blaming the family for this story because it's as if the default assumes Holland couldn't have made a mistake so therefore it must be the family's fault. Maybe the exaggeration started there, but we can't know for sure. Elder Holland heard the story 2nd hand which means the original source could have been wrong in some elements, the individual that heard, interpreted, and reconveyed the story could have been wrong, or Elder Holland could have been wrong in how he heard, interpreted and retold the story. Or they all could have gotten things wrong. We all get things wrong. We all misremember and mis-tell stories.

But the responsibility ultimately rests on Elder Holland, not the family. The family seems to have done the courageous and ethical thing by bringing the mistakes to Elder Holland's attention even though it may have caused them embarrassment or even shame when people would inevitably blame them for the errors. Elder Holland then did the courageous and ethical thing by admitting the mistake. Whether or not he had much choice about that is in question and doesn't concern me a whole lot, but I'm happy he made a direct statement. I do wish he hadn't called the family into question, though.

I hope that this is a good lesson for those who are tempted to share miraculous faith affirming stories if they don't have 1st hand experience with it. I also hope that the "faithful" won't be so harsh in judging those who are skeptical about such stories. The previous thread irritated me because the faithful were appalled that anyone would even question Elder Holland's story, as if he was infallible. Well, we see how that worked out in this case and I think he will have a responsibility to be very accurate and careful in the future to regain some trust.

ETA-

I hope I'm misunderstanding you. You're not claiming that the family was lying and the source of this whole fiasco, are you?

Here is what Pres. Holland said:

"A few weeks ago when speaking to new mission presidents at the Missionary Training Center, I shared a story about two brothers, just as I heard it from individuals who knew the family and had heard it recounted by a family member. Within a few days, my office was contacted by the family, who expressed concern that some elements of that account were not accurate due to embellishing by a family member."

The miraculous part of the story was fabricated by the family member.  He (not Holland) is ultimately responsible for this mess.  Do you really think that Elder Holland should have taken the bullet for this family member?  By not stating the source of the fabrication, it would leave the door open for speculation and misjudgment of innocent people. 

Even if he had fact checked, it was the family member who fabricated the lie, so...

Edited August 1, 2017 by pogi

[RevTestament]

19 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

The long and dirty version. Much more detail on his criminal past and much more soul searching over the years before he was able to overcome his drug problem. My mom is in their ward and is very close friends with them. But  he did have a younger brother who he didn't even know of who  was somehow instrumental in his return. I imagine this part of the story is the part that got embellished.  There is also a son who struggled with activity for a long time who is now fully active.  And the wife is a veritable saint according to my mom.  I remember my mom talking about the tattoo thing. Apparently he and his wife are both heavily tattooed and owned a popular tattoo parlor in Boise. To me that was never a big deal because I  work with a lot of archaeologists who are heavily tattooed and I never equated that with personal character.  But at any rate, along with their tattoos they are active temple going LDS people who have been fully embraced by their ward and community and are much loved and admired  for their journey. 

Do you know if there is any truth to his dogs laying down to allow missionaries to approach?

[Duncan]

This whole thing reminds me of this bit from MASH