Tacenda Posted July 22, 2017 Posted July 22, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, Calm said: Bryce appears relatively safe in regards to deaths, but I have always been thinking more of the dangers of dropping a young man anywhere alone without preparation, mentally and financially unprepared, no plan, and cutting out the foundation of life (his family) from beneath his feet. It is not so much places that aren't predictably safe, it's more people in my view...hopefully most are kind as were the owners who took him in for the night, but there are enough. I have hadfamily and friends whose kids or other family members have been kidnapped, raped, beaten, abused, or murdered. And so many more accidental deaths when people were careless and acting stupid (as anger and fear can cause you to do). You just shouldn't create this risk for your kids. Him waiting for them to return and then realizing they weren't. Maybe it wasn't all that new behaviour to him from his parents, so he already had a thick skin, which is why he can laugh it off now while still pointing out it wasn't the right thing to do, but how it must have ached between the time he began to realize they weren't coming back and when he heard his grandfather's voice telling him he was not alone in the world after all. ---- https://www.nps.gov/brca/planyourvisit/upload/08SummerHoodoo.pdf "Death at Bryce Canyon How many people die at Bryce? Fortunately, Bryce averages less than 1 fatality per year. In order of decreasing abundance, fatalities are caused by: •Heart attacks •Falling off cliffs •Lightning •Vehicle accidents Unfortunately, hundreds of serious injuries have also needlessly occurred, some out of ignorance, but too many from ignoring park safety warnings " In another quote I mentioned poop hitting the fan, my meaning was that one day he might just have a light bulb moment and think how really awful that his parents did that and he'll be coming around for answers. But also, there was a danger in that at his age he may have felt lower than low about backing out of going on a mission. And there sits some huge canyon trails above, and one wrong move would have him falling down to the bottom. I've been to Bryce Canyon, it's much like the Grand Canyon, not always safe. And when we show statistics that Utah has one of the highest rates of youth suicide, (I see this to be connected to the LDS religion, some on here will most definitely disagree) I think this young man could well have thought to try that. Edited July 22, 2017 by Tacenda
rpn Posted July 22, 2017 Posted July 22, 2017 Quote but I have always been thinking more of the dangers of dropping a young man anywhere alone without preparation, mentally and financially unprepared, no plan, and cutting out the foundation of life (his family) from beneath his feet. May I suggest you read Swallows and Amazons by Arthur Ransome? Unless he is disabled, 19 year olds are adults and ought to be considered fully competent to be dropped anywhere at all, including being financially prepared. And it is not the parents' job to make him so at that point either. Yes, I understand that our world is different and too many young people aren't prepared for real life. But any expectation that parents remain responsible for that generally at age 19 is not in the young person's best interest.
Popular Post katherine the great Posted July 22, 2017 Popular Post Posted July 22, 2017 10 minutes ago, rpn said: May I suggest you read Swallows and Amazons by Arthur Ransome? Unless he is disabled, 19 year olds are adults and ought to be considered fully competent to be dropped anywhere at all, including being financially prepared. And it is not the parents' job to make him so at that point either. Yes, I understand that our world is different and too many young people aren't prepared for real life. But any expectation that parents remain responsible for that generally at age 19 is not in the young person's best interest. Seriously? That's pretty harsh. I'm quite sure that when I went on a trip with my parents I never carried a couple hundred extra bucks and a swiss army knife in my pocket at all times "just in case". Its situational planning. I don't think most nineteen year olds could even comprehend being dumped in the middle of a trip with their parents (especially BY their parents.) I traveled internationally at the age of nineteen with a university group and I prepared for emergency situations, but it is a perfectly reasonable expectation that you can depend on your parents to not dump you in a national park because they don't like something you said. 9
Popular Post bluebell Posted July 22, 2017 Popular Post Posted July 22, 2017 28 minutes ago, rpn said: May I suggest you read Swallows and Amazons by Arthur Ransome? Unless he is disabled, 19 year olds are adults and ought to be considered fully competent to be dropped anywhere at all, including being financially prepared. And it is not the parents' job to make him so at that point either. Yes, I understand that our world is different and too many young people aren't prepared for real life. But any expectation that parents remain responsible for that generally at age 19 is not in the young person's best interest. If a parent offers to take a 19 year old on an all expenses paid trip, then yes, it is their job to either bring him home again or make sure he's prepared to take care of himself before leaving. 6
Five Solas Posted July 22, 2017 Posted July 22, 2017 Perhaps the FLDS can start up a rescue mission for reluctant LDS boys abandoned in national parks in S. Utah... ;0) --Erik PS. In all seriousness, "LDS Living" has an opportunity here, what former President Barack Obama would have called a "teachable moment." Instead they're squandering it, foolishly wishing the story had never come to light. 1
Calm Posted July 22, 2017 Posted July 22, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, rpn said: And it is not the parents' job to make him so at that point either. No, but it is the job of the parents to do so prior to that time. If they have failed to care for their child in that way, then they are morally, if not legally, responsible for caring for him until he is able to care for himself. Him turning 18 doesn't magically make available all the skills he needs just for the asking. On a personal note, my dad was hyper committed to the idea of his kids once adult being financially independent. He was often talking to us about the value of money and being prudent in spending. He and Mom were excellent examples of such in what we could observe. Only problem was he never gave us opportunities to practice. At times 'contracts' were made, but allowances never ended up being paid. Help was pretty much all or nothing. He found me a job two summers through a friend (and did so for my siblings as well), but all others I was on my own without any suggestions or aid. It was what I learned at high school and the help I got there that allowed me to figure out going to the employment office or just store to store asking if they were hiring with a resume already prepared. So I have been little surprised when all of us kids ended up having to move home for months or years or borrow money and for some in some ways remained dependent on him for decades for rescue in spite of having a good job most of the time (which he only minded at times as how he related was through solving others' problem). He was extremely kind and generous in his help, just not a good teacher on the practical side. The talk is important to instill the desire to be independent, but if parents don't provide opportunities to experience partial independence while growing up or are inconsistent, it is hardly the 18 year old's fault if they are clueless about a budget or don't know how to fill a gas tank (my situation at 17...I had to ask the attendant how to use it as I hadn't even ever removed a gas cap until my dad had sent me out on an errand with an empty tank (ignoring my " I don't know how") and I had so rarely had the car and never had cash in hand due to being instructed all my earnings had to go towards college so I had never bought much more than a donut for myself until I was away at college and had my own checking account. There are kids and adults that can survive being thrown in the deep end the first time they are taken swimming. There are others who will drown if their parent decides to walk away without looking back to see if the kid figured it out in time. ( We couldn't swim, but thankfully Dad was willing to turn back when he heard our screams...I am saying Dad because besides groceries and clothing, Mom never handled finances, which means now that Dad is gone, it is my brother and .I paying her bills while she asks me permission to give her grandkids gifts and has no clue how to even check her balance, and she is a very intelligent woman even with some dementia though now convinced she can't care for herself after decades of Dad refusing to involve her as it took too much time and effort and was boring). From the little evidence we are given---parents filled out his mission forms for him, he was unable to stand up for himself until the deadline hit, the mom's reaction was to avoid the problem by dumping him---I am guessing there was probably significant lacks in their side of preparing him to be an adult. And from another POV... Even if this was an adult neighbour they had agreed to transport to Provo, dumping him in Bryce Canyon without warning would be wrong. You just don't do that to people. Edited July 22, 2017 by Calm 3
Jeanne Posted July 22, 2017 Posted July 22, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said: I think the story is a good lesson of how not to treat questioning children. The boy was over 18 so a felony child abandonment charge can't be brought against the parents. Lucky for them. However, I'm sure the scar from this incident will remain, even though it's maybe buried by the boy now. I agree. I read three different stories on this last night and couldn't wrap my mind around anything but spiritual and mental child abuse. Someday, I fear, all this will creep up on him in a reality he didn't see before. That being said, I hope he has a good life and his parents will see that they were more than lucky with grandpa. Edited to add:..missionaries should go because they want to..and because they already have a testimony. Edited July 22, 2017 by Jeanne 1
Jeanne Posted July 22, 2017 Posted July 22, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Tacenda said: In another quote I mentioned poop hitting the fan, my meaning was that one day he might just have a light bulb moment and think how really awful that his parents did that and he'll be coming around for answers. But also, there was a danger in that at his age he may have felt lower than low about backing out of going on a mission. And there sits some huge canyon trails above, and one wrong move would have him falling down to the bottom. I've been to Bryce Canyon, it's much like the Grand Canyon, not always safe. And when we show statistics that Utah has one of the highest rates of youth suicide, (I see this to be connected to the LDS religion, some on here will most definitely disagree) I think this young man could well have thought to try that. When one is confused about what to do in life..it is the worse time for parents to just say...drop in..or drop out..The worse rule IMO any parent can have is you will do this or you won't live here..been there done that. Edited July 22, 2017 by Jeanne
rodheadlee Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said: I think the story is a good lesson of how not to treat questioning children. The boy was over 18 so a felony child abandonment charge can't be brought against the parents. Lucky for them. However, I'm sure the scar from this incident will remain, even though it's maybe buried by the boy now. Are you kidding? Old enough to vote, old enough to join the the Marines, Navy, Army or Air Force among others. Old enough to kill and be killed in battle.Old enough to get himself home.
sunstoned Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 12 hours ago, bluebell said: How did they try to spin it? They left out the part about the parents leaving the kid stranded.
bluebell Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 11 hours ago, sunstoned said: They left out the part about the parents leaving the kid stranded. Did you read why they chose to leave it out? (Not being snarky, honest question). Calm posted it earlier in the thread.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 On 7/21/2017 at 4:32 PM, Kenngo1969 said: Hell, if someone wants to kidnap me and plunk me down in the middle of Bryce Canyon, I won't even press charges!!! ("Ken, this is a serious matter!" Yeah, yeah, yeah! I know! That's just how I am. I'm the Board's Resident Court Jester.) We now return you to your deadly-serious, on-topic programming. Maybe they thought he would be adopted by a family of coyotes -- like Tarzan with the apes or Mowgli with the wolves. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, rodheadlee said: Are you kidding? Old enough to vote, old enough to join the the Marines, Navy, Army or Air Force among others. Old enough to kill and be killed in battle.Old enough to get himself home. You're old enough to kill but not for votin'. You don't believe in war, but what's that gun you're totin'? -- P.F. Sloan, "Eve of Destruction," from 1966 (before the Amendment was ratified lowering the age of voting eligibility to 18) Edited July 23, 2017 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 OK, I'll get serious for a minute. Not condoning the parents' behavior, and definitely not what I would have done. But I have to wonder why he was in a frame of mind to listen to the grandparents but not the parents. Did the shock of being left momentarily to live by his wits have anything to do with it? Also, my hunch is that he would not have been so willing under other circumstances to go stay with the grandparents and listen to them. 2
Tacenda Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 20 hours ago, katherine the great said: Seriously? That's pretty harsh. I'm quite sure that when I went on a trip with my parents I never carried a couple hundred extra bucks and a swiss army knife in my pocket at all times "just in case". Its situational planning. I don't think most nineteen year olds could even comprehend being dumped in the middle of a trip with their parents (especially BY their parents.) I traveled internationally at the age of nineteen with a university group and I prepared for emergency situations, but it is a perfectly reasonable expectation that you can depend on your parents to not dump you in a national park because they don't like something you said. It's the epitome of a back stab.
Tacenda Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 34 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: OK, I'll get serious for a minute. Not condoning the parents' behavior, and definitely not what I would have done. But I have to wonder why he was in a frame of mind to listen to the grandparents but not the parents. Did the shock of being left momentarily to live by his wits have anything to do with it? Also, my hunch is that he would not have been so willing under other circumstances to go stay with the grandparents and listen to them. He would have felt the same if they had driven him to the grandparents, or waited for them to pick him up. Leaving him leaves all kinds of potentially dangerous things to happen, not just physical but mentally.
Pete Ahlstrom Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 41 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: OK, I'll get serious for a minute. Not condoning the parents' behavior, and definitely not what I would have done. But I have to wonder why he was in a frame of mind to listen to the grandparents but not the parents. Did the shock of being left momentarily to live by his wits have anything to do with it? Also, my hunch is that he would not have been so willing under other circumstances to go stay with the grandparents and listen to them. I don't think you can twist this into something faithful. His parents were wrong to abandon him. They chose the wrong road, period, and should be ashamed they let social pressures get the best of them. Just because the kid seemingly is back in the fold is of no import. The focus should be on the wrongful, overly emotional conduct of the parents. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 19 minutes ago, Tacenda said: He would have felt the same if they had driven him to the grandparents, or waited for them to pick him up. Leaving him leaves all kinds of potentially dangerous things to happen, not just physical but mentally. I said I didn't condone the parents' action. But you have no way of knowing what his attitude would have been beforehand, especially if he knew his grandfather would try to persuade him to follow through on his commitment. And if you've been to Bryce Canyon, you know it's not exactly beyond civilization. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 13 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said: I don't think you can twist this into something faithful. His parents were wrong to abandon him. They chose the wrong road, period, and should be ashamed they let social pressures get the best of them. Just because the kid seemingly is back in the fold is of no import. The focus should be on the wrongful, overly emotional conduct of the parents. I disagree the focus should be on that any more than it should be on the action of a loving and kindly grandfather to reach out to his grandson and the miracle that occurred in the life of a young man who, like the prodigal son, "came to himself." Being angry at the Church doesn't give you any special dispensation to say where "the focus should be." 1
Pete Ahlstrom Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I disagree the focus should be on that any more than it should be on the action of a loving and kindly grandfather to reach out to his grandson and the miracle that occurred in the life of a young man who, like the prodigal son, "came to himself." Being angry at the Church doesn't give you any special dispensation to say where "the focus should be." Ok. I guess putting the angry ex label on someone is tough to leave alone? Maybe your thirst to defend anything that appears to knock the church down clouds your thinking? You do realize that everyone makes mistakes, including the LDS, and that the bad conduct doesn't represent the church as a whole. That's obvious. However, thank goodness you're here to make sure all stories turn into faith promoting ones, and as a bonus, you labeled someone as well.
rodheadlee Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 21 hours ago, katherine the great said: Seriously? That's pretty harsh. I'm quite sure that when I went on a trip with my parents I never carried a couple hundred extra bucks and a swiss army knife in my pocket at all times "just in case". Its situational planning. I don't think most nineteen year olds could even comprehend being dumped in the middle of a trip with their parents (especially BY their parents.) I traveled internationally at the age of nineteen with a university group and I prepared for emergency situations, but it is a perfectly reasonable expectation that you can depend on your parents to not dump you in a national park because they don't like something you said. At 19 i was married and the foreman on a construction site. I carried extra money, truck parts, food and water. Stop coddling our young men. I can't even find one to be an apprentice shipwright.
Pete Ahlstrom Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 Just now, rodheadlee said: At 19 i was married and the foreman on a construction site. I carried extra money, truck parts, food and water. Stop coddling our young men. I can't even find one to be an apprentice shipwright. How is saying that it was wrong to abandon the kid in the wilderness and without warning, somehow coddling? The parents' actions were wrong. Publicizing the story was wrong. It has nothing to do with the church as a whole so there is no need to have a knee-jerk defensive response here.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said: Ok. I guess putting the angry ex label on someone is tough to leave alone? Maybe your thirst to defend anything that appears to knock the church down clouds your thinking? You do realize that everyone makes mistakes, including the LDS, and that the bad conduct doesn't represent the church as a whole. That's obvious. However, thank goodness you're here to make sure all stories turn into faith promoting ones, and as a bonus, you labeled someone as well. I've said repeatedly I don't condone the behavior of the parents in this incident. However, you telegraphed your mindset when you said they were motivated by "social pressure." There's no way for you to know this and, if anything, social pressure is more apt to have been a dissuader, considering how their action would likely be viewed. Look at how they have been pilloried on this board and elsewhere on the internet. Edited July 23, 2017 by Scott Lloyd
Storm Rider Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 I know individuals who have paid thousands of dollars to go on excursions, trips, etc., to learn about life skills and being independent. Were these parents abusive to their young son? No, I don't see it as abusive. Nor do I see any other parent here capable of judging the situation with such limited facts. Would I make the same choice? No, I don't think I would have. However, I have not walked in the shoes of these parents either. Did the grandparents say the right things? Obviously! I suggest we keep the condemnation to ourselves and live our own lives, make our own decisions about how to assist our children transition from childhood to adulthood. Regardless of our personal feelings I have yet to meet a perfect parent. I have met those I truly admire as being great parents in challenging situations. What this couple did was a drastic choice, but it worked and they did not have to pay $2500 for the experience of a lifetime. 2
Pete Ahlstrom Posted July 23, 2017 Posted July 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I've said repeatedly I don't condone the behavior of the parents in this incident. However, you telegraphed your mindset when you said they were motivated by "social pressure." There's no way for you to know this and, if anything, social pressure is more apt to have been a dissuader, considering how their action would likely be viewed. Look at how they have been pilloried on this board and elsewhere in the internet. You don't think social pressure exists in the church to put kids on missions? Don't you think the shock of her son making a last minute decision against the group had something to do with the overreaction on the mother's part? Or is this just the babblings of an angry ex mormon who refuses to allow the pivot to the kindly grandparents meme?
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