Parents leave son in Bryce Canyon-thoughts?

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

So, when my brother-in-law Gaspaccio turned 17, his father said, "You're on your own now. Move your stuff out and get a job." 

So? Are you justifying bad behavior with someone else's bad behavior?

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Until not everyone reacted with a suitably high degree of vindictiveness and seething rage. Then some of the same posters began to blame the Church.

 

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This thread. California Boy's post a few pages ago. I'm not going to link to it. You can hunt it up if you like. Or not.

 

Another one of your hyperbole that you seem to be suing to justify the defending of these parents.  This is exactly what I said.  

Quote

 

When I first read about this in the thread, I in no way blamed the church for the appalling behavior of these parents.  But as I read so many defending the actions or even rationalizing the actions of the parents, it has become obvious that it is a problem with the church that is creating a culture where something so wrong is supported and defended.  And many of those defending these parents actions are the ones that are most vigilant in defending the church's positions.  It is looking like more of a problem than just one case of bad parents.  

There is no defense for this kind of behavior of any parent no matter what church they belong to

 

Scott, you have said that the reason you are defending these parents is because you believe the church is under attack.  If you truly believe that the church is under attack then you yourself believe the actions of the parents are tied to the church.  Is all I am saying is perhaps you might be right.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

14 minutes ago, california boy said:

 

 

Another one of your hyperbole that you seem to be suing to justify the defending of these parents.  This is exactly what I said.  

Scott, you have said that the reason you are defending these parents is because you believe the church is under attack.  If you truly believe that the church is under attack then you yourself believe the actions of the parents are tied to the church.  Is all I am saying is perhaps you might be right.

This was an isolated case, I hope, of someone who misinterpreted how far to go when pressuring a child to go on a mission.  Sure there is pressure in "every young man to serve a mission."  However, surely the church doesn't stand for abandoning a child in this way if the child doesn't want to go on a mission.  The church's way is more subdued, more on the individual and group persuasion side.   

Edited July 27, 2017 by Pete Ahlstrom

[california boy]

11 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

This was an isolated case, I hope, of someone who misinterpreted how far to go when pressuring a child to go on a mission.  Sure there is pressure in "every young man to serve a mission."  However, surely the church doesn't stand for abandoning a child in this way if the child doesn't want to go on a mission.  The church's way is more subdued, more on the individual and group persuasion side.   

Of course I agree with you.  But what is it with all these TBM defending the actions of these parents.  Where do they get this notion  that the actions of these parents should be defended.  

[Pete Ahlstrom]

5 minutes ago, california boy said:

Of course I agree with you.  But what is it with all these TBM defending the actions of these parents.  Where do they get this notion  that the actions of these parents should be defended.  

It's the defense mechanism mormonism instills or instilled in us.  We grew up on this us v. them dichotomy with stories of those evil Missourians having the gall to resist zion, etc.  So, any questioning of the perfect mormon paradigm brings out the defenders. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

 

 

Another one of your hyperbole that you seem to be suing to justify the defending of these parents.  This is exactly what I said.  

Scott, you have said that the reason you are defending these parents is because you believe the church is under attack.  If you truly believe that the church is under attack then you yourself believe the actions of the parents are tied to the church.  Is all I am saying is perhaps you might be right.

You are knowingly lying. 

I have said repeatedly that I don't condone the behavior of the parents. Anyone can look back through the thread and see the posts where I have made that precise statement in those words. 

That I haven't gone after them with the viciousness that others have and that I have expressed gladness that the young man has had a change of heart and now seems to be thriving as a missionary after a spiritual experience in the MTC has angered you for some reason. You need to get over it. 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, ttribe said:

So? Are you justifying bad behavior with someone else's bad behavior?

I don't get that from what he said. 

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Thanks for the corrobration.

I wonder where Tacenda got the idea it was without his knowledge. Perhaps she has no family experience with missionaries.

I do! My other son went on a mission, but the younger one almost did, and changed his mind before submitting his papers. My neighbor's daughter recently surprised her parents and recieved her papers in the mail without them being included in the whole process, papers filled out, everything.  Could she have done it all on her own, even the medical visits, bishop visit? 

Here is the FB post by her mother:

"So today Summer gave as a big surprise. And we couldn't be any happier. Arizona is a lucky place to be getting our Summer.#august 9th"

And a comment back:

"I didn't know she was putting in her papers. So excited for her."

Mom: "That make 2 of us. She just told us tonight"

Me to you Scott: How did she pull that off, I wonder. If she did, how hard would it be for parents to send in their child's papers without their knowing also? When comparing it to my neighbor's daughter doing it. 

 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Tacenda

[Scott Lloyd]

39 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I do! My other son went on a mission, but the younger one almost did, and changed his mind before submitting his papers. My neighbor's daughter recently surprised her parents and recieved her papers in the mail without them being included in the whole process, papers filled out, everything.  Could she have done it all on her own, even the medical visits, bishop visit? 

Here is the FB post by her mother:

"So today Summer gave as a big surprise. And we couldn't be any happier. Arizona is a lucky place to be getting our Summer.#august 9th"

And a comment back:

"I didn't know she was putting in her papers. So excited for her."

Mom: "That make 2 of us. She just told us tonight"

Me to you Scott: How did she pull that off, I wonder. If she did, how hard would it be for parents to send in their child's papers without their knowing also? When comparing it to my neighbor's daughter doing it. 

 

Impossible. Thinking already told you why. You can't submit papers without a doctor's exam and an interview with the bishop. The papers can't be submitted without the perspective missionary knowing about it. If you're acquainted with the process you should know this already. 

But more to the point it didn't happen in this case. You misremembered what the missionary said in the interview and posted it without checking your facts. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Of course I agree with you.  But what is it with all these TBM defending the actions of these parents.  Where do they get this notion  that the actions of these parents should be defended.  

How many are coming even close to "defending" the parents (there is a difference between saying 'the parents were right' and saying 'we don't know enough to judge ', 'yes, it was wrong but it doesn't merit the level of outrage ', 'yes, the parents were wrong, but the LDS Living article which does not approve of them, but speaks of the outcome as positive is fine', or whatever else has been said by those not supporting the parents' choice, but not condemning them)?  Compare that number to the number of TBMs who have been willing to do more than just say the parents were wrong?  I think you will find the disapproving latter is the majority and therefore it is unlikely that it is a general Church culture contributing to a neutral or positive response to the parents.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Impossible. Thinking already told you why. You can't submit papers without a doctor's exam and an interview with the bishop. The papers can't be submitted without the perspective missionary knowing about it. If you're acquainted with the process you should know this already. 

But more to the point it didn't happen in this case. You misremembered what the missionary said in the interview and posted it without checking your facts. 

Surely if they are older, they don't need parental approval?

add-on:  you appear to be responding to Tacenda's earlier claim the parents submitted without the kid knowing and not the one quoted about the daughter submitting without the parent knowing...

ignore this if already resolved

add-on and on:  I had missed the last question in Tacenda's post...

Tacenda, There is a huge difference between an adult submitting her own papers without telling someone and parents submitting papers for a child without telling them.  Think about it if you are still confused.  A parent doesn't have to go to a doctor's appointment or bishop's interview with the adult child, but what doctor or bishop is going to sign off without actually dealing with the child?

Edited July 27, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

It's the defense mechanism mormonism instills or instilled in us.  We grew up on this us v. them dichotomy with stories of those evil Missourians having the gall to resist zion, etc.  So, any questioning of the perfect mormon paradigm brings out the defenders. 

And yet so many are not defending, so did the culture screw up when it came to us?

[Scott Lloyd]

53 minutes ago, Calm said:

Surely if they are older, they don't need parental approval?

add-on:  you appear to be responding to Tacenda's earlier claim the parents submitted without the kid knowing and not the one quoted about the daughter submitting without the parent knowing...

ignore this if already resolved

add-on and on:  I had missed the last question in Tacenda's post...

Tacenda, There is a huge difference between an adult submitting her own papers without telling someone and parents submitting papers for a child without telling them.  Think about it if you are still confused.  A parent doesn't have to go to a doctor's appointment or bishop's interview with the adult child, but what doctor or bishop is going to sign off without actually dealing with the child?

Precisely. 

[Yirgacheffe]

On 7/21/2017 at 9:44 PM, Calm said:

I wonder if the parents have figured out yet they have taught the younger siblings to not be honest about their own doubts with them?

They have taught all their children not to be honest with them about much of anything.  I also wonder if they understand this is the last thing they did to their son before he starts out on his own.  Two years on a mission without them, off to school without them, then on to the rest of his life where he chooses how involved they are in his life.

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, Yirgacheffe said:

They have taught all their children not to be honest with them about much of anything.  I also wonder if they understand this is the last thing they did to their son before he starts out on his own.  Two years on a mission without them, off to school without them, then on to the rest of his life where he chooses how involved they are in his life.

He doesn't seem very bitter in the video. And if they are following guidelines, they are exchanging letters weekly. And hopefully the benevolent grandfather will step in to help the relationship, if he hasn't already. 

[Yirgacheffe]

On 7/22/2017 at 3:52 PM, Jeanne said:

I agree. I read three different stories on this last night and couldn't wrap my mind around anything but spiritual and mental child abuse

Two weeks ago maybe my kids wound up at the page of that white supremacist good wife or what ever she calls herself, and were appalled, as were their friends, now again they wind up from some side ways slide looking at yet another Mormon woman, over all a very bad impression.

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, ALarson said:

Well, I don't know the details or circumstances involved with that, so I have no idea if it was the right thing to do or not.  However, that is not what took place with the parents we're discussing here.

It was worse. For starters, he was 2 years younger.

But on the positive side, kind of like the benevolent grampa, he was given a room by some Church members who lived next door, joined the Church, served a mission, married Sister Gui's sister Rosapelona in the temple, and is a great dad and b-i-l, although he did expect his boys to be self-sufficient at an earlier age than most.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, ttribe said:

So? Are you justifying bad behavior with someone else's bad behavior?

Absolutely not. Just throwing in another anecdotal story about extreme parenting. In this case, his family wasn't LDS, so no one can dump it at the feet of the Church. See my previous post for the happy ending.

[Yirgacheffe]

49 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

He doesn't seem very bitter in the video. And if they are following guidelines, they are exchanging letters weekly. And hopefully the benevolent grandfather will step in to help the relationship, if he hasn't already. 

But the young man still knows they cut him out, he has been taught that their love and support is conditioned on his continued participation in expected church behavior.  Their concern only extends as far as his willingness to church.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I noticed after viewing the video, something I wasn't aware of before. The missionary said his mother filled out the papers without him knowing and sent them. Is it any wonder that he refused to go, isn't this wrong for her to do? 

Yes.

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, ALarson said:

Which I've seen repeatedly avoided here on this thread (along with most posters outright stating that the parents are the ones responsible here for their actions, not the church or its leaders).  

Perhaps. But some still snuck through. Note the word usually in my comment. 

"I think the story is a good lesson of how not to treat questioning children."

"And when we show statistics that Utah has one of the highest rates of youth suicide, (I see this to be connected to the LDS religion, some on here will most definitely disagree) I think this young man could well have thought to try that."

"They chose the wrong road, period, and should be ashamed they let social pressures get the best of them."

"You don't think social pressure exists in the church to put kids on missions? Don't you think the shock of her son making a last minute decision against the group had something to do with the overreaction on the mother's part?"

"His parents were abusive rigid Pharisaical Mormon parents."

Is the Church being spared in the other groups talking about it? What about the inevitable interview with Mr. Dehlin?

Like this gem from a popular critical website...

"Like, it’s very clear that Mormonism prioritizes and privileges mission work. To me, if someone asked me who has a more typically Mormon response to mission work: my parents or Alabbas’ parents, I would easily say Alabbas’s parents. Even though I am very fortunate my parents did not have that sort of expectations, I cannot honestly say that that is a particularly orthodox Mormon POV."

Edited July 27, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

18 minutes ago, Yirgacheffe said:

But the young man still knows they cut him out, he has been taught that their love and support is conditioned on his continued participation in expected church behavior.  Their concern only extends as far as his willingness to church.

One of the principles he no doubt is teaching people on his mission is forgiveness. It's a great principle. 

[Scott Lloyd]

21 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes.

Don't know if you caught the follow up posts but Tacenda is wrong here. He did not say the papers were sent in without his knowledge. 

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'll bet she sent his papers in, and then when his call came in he had no choice but to go. Then in Bryce decided to put his foot down maybe. 

Did she also do the bishop/stake president interviews and the medical exams? The local Priesthood leaders "put the papers in" through a protected internet process. How was she able to hack the system?

[Thinking]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

When your dad tells you, "I've told you a thousand times to turn off the bathroom light when you come out," you and he both know he hasn't done it a thousand times. You both recognize he is exaggerating for effect.

I think it's probable that there are some things (brush your teeth, wash your hands, pick your clothes up off the floor, finish eating...) that I really have repeated more than a thousand times.

18 years = 6,570 days (not counting leap years)