Parents leave son in Bryce Canyon-thoughts?

[Stargazer]

Well, for what it's worth, when I told my father that I wanted to serve a mission instead of going to college like he wanted me to do, he kicked me out of the house.

If anyone here wants to attack or vilify my father for what he did, guess what: I got a fist right here that is ready to defend his action.

He did what he thought was right.  And it did not hurt me, not one bit.  And neither was the young man in the discussion.

NB: I'm not actually threatening anyone.

[Storm Rider]

On 7/25/2017 at 11:45 PM, Duncan said:

they basically left him for dead? do we need more facts than that?! does any past behaviour warrant that and if so why was he recommended for a mission?

They left him for dead - can you explain that.  I missed it somehow, which would be very easy I have not tried to read everything about this.  

I like pitchforks and burning people at the stake that I think are idiots as much as the next fellow, but I think several of you don't have a clue about parenthood or the actual humanity of parents.  When you find that perfect set of parents in this mortal world, please show them to me.  I want to see what standard you are using. 

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

In most cases I agree but these yahoos decided to put their story out there. Complaining about people discussing it after you publicize it is silly.

Indeed. As far as I am concerned, this applies also to such things as stake presidents announcing they really are women, young girls proclaiming private things in testimony meetings with cameras present, and most others that, absent an agenda, could be handled more discreetly.

[Storm Rider]

On 7/26/2017 at 1:54 AM, Pete Ahlstrom said:

There is a certain standard society requires in raising children. I think the parents fell below that standard and could have been criminally charged with child abandonment had the boy been under 18. Sure I don't know the history but I don't have to. 

Well I guess if the boy was actually two, blind, mute, and starving then you might have a case.....the issue was that was 18 so inventing different scenarios that don't fit does not seem helpful.  It may make it easier to judge them, but then again you are only judging the parents on a scenarios that is but a fantasy.  Some of you folks are really into condemning parents.  That old judge not lest ye be judged comes to mind really easily. 

[Storm Rider]

10 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Well, for what it's worth, when I told my father that I wanted to serve a mission instead of going to college like he wanted me to do, he kicked me out of the house.

If anyone here wants to attack or vilify my father for what he did, guess what: I got a fist right here that is ready to defend his action.

He did what he thought was right.  And it did not hurt me, not one bit.  And neither was the young man in the discussion.

NB: I'm not actually threatening anyone.

It does seem strange to me the degree of animosity and willingness of some individuals to condemn others they judge as inferior to their required standard of being a parent.  I have to think that none of them has ever been exposed to really hard parents.  Were this many people coddled so much as children?  It is as if they went to bleeding heart school and are ready to .....oh, why bother.  It is not worth it.  

I refuse to judge this couple for their actions. I don't know the whole story and it appears that no one was harmed in any way.  

[Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

It does seem strange to me the degree of animosity and willingness of some individuals to condemn others they judge as inferior to their required standard of being a parent.  I have to think that none of them has ever been exposed to really hard parents.  Were this many people coddled so much as children?  It is as if they went to bleeding heart school and are ready to .....oh, why bother.  It is not worth it.  

I refuse to judge this couple for their actions. I don't know the whole story and it appears that no one was harmed in any way.  

I also refuse to judge them.

Incidentally, when I mentioned above that my father kicked me out of the house it wasn't quite as precipitate as this young man's experience, but he did so after failing over the course of a week or so to convince me to change my mind.  Since we were living in England at the time, he had me pack two suitcases and put me on a plane back home to California.  Where I stayed with my grandmother for a few weeks until I found a job and an apartment, so I could start saving for my mission.  Basically, I got treated the same way as the Elder Alabbas.

When I first heard this case it didn't immediately occur to me how closely it paralleled my own case, except from the opposite end of things!

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Absolutely not. Just throwing in another anecdotal story about extreme parenting. In this case, his family wasn't LDS, so no one can dump it at the feet of the Church. See my previous post for the happy ending.

Got it. Sorry I misunderstood.

[Bernard Gui]

27 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Got it. Sorry I misunderstood.

No worries! I should have explained it.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I also refuse to judge them.

Incidentally, when I mentioned above that my father kicked me out of the house it wasn't quite as precipitate as this young man's experience, but he did so after failing over the course of a week or so to convince me to change my mind.  Since we were living in England at the time, he had me pack two suitcases and put me on a plane back home to California.  Where I stayed with my grandmother for a few weeks until I found a job and an apartment, so I could start saving for my mission.  Basically, I got treated the same way as the Elder Alabbas

Except your dad was part of the arrangements and didn't leave it up to anyone else to ensure you were okay getting to a safe place where you could work out your plan, the "kicking out" discussion took place over the week and not an hour or two, he told you what he was doing, and he took you to the plane.

Not the same way at all by his parents since his parents just drove out of his life an hour or so after finding out he was not going on a mission having done not one thing to ensure he got safely to the next stage.

Otoh, his grandfather played that role.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

"have to think that none of them has ever been exposed to really hard parents"

Or maybe we had loving parents who also foolishly abandoned us....in my case they thought they were leaving us with a grandmother who would be lots of fun, turns out she was already into the beginnings of her senility, but even after figuring out there was something wrong, we were required to stay for a total of four months (forever for my five and three year old siblings, long enough for me I forgot what it was like to be a kid and not the Responsible One at age 10 ) ...enough time to turn us into very different children (me, I got crippling shyness and anxiety as well out of the bargain).  We were physically safe enough, but were emotionally traumatized by details I won't get into save it was incompetence and neglect and not actual abuse that was at issue.

And forgiving with as much heart and mind I have my parents and grandmother and knowing they were doing as well as they could does squat for my mixed up, compulsive thinking or core belief I am unimportant to others, an afterthought at best to be collected when convenient, fitted between the more important things in life, like a job, taking care of the house, making things nice for strangers.  It took decades of a devoted husband and kids to begin to penetrate that.  People listening to me on this board had a huge impact as well.

Or maybe they have relatives or friends that have physically and/or emotionally abandoned their children or were abandoned themselves...seen it happen from both sides, (a father of three young girls deciding he was going off to find himself when he hit his thirties and basically forgot his girls existed, seen a three year old on the porch in the dark pounding on the front  door in the middle of the night screaming they would be good, been told by a friend of them being placed in the care of someone who put crap on them to show them they were worth that, had a neighbour drop her kids off at my door with all their documents, medications, and suitcases without warning with the intent to drive her car into a wall somewhere, kids showing up at my house because their parent had kicked them out because they had dared to question the claim that no one in the world cared about them---thankfully they knew I and many others actually did---and way too many more) and seen that lead to drug use, OCD, promiscuity, cutting, fixating on strippers, failing in school, and other life consuming issues.

Or they have both...seen the devastation in others' lives and felt it in their own. 

Some have been able to recover pretty quickly, others it took years or decades, some we are still wondering.  All have had to find ways to believe they are actually important to people and if they went missing tomorrow someone would care...and there are hard days where that self doubt let's you know it is still there.  Unfortunately there are several who haven't been able to convince themselves that yet.

It isn't a fear of what might happen that drives my judgment, it is being all too familiar with what does.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Calm

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Except your dad was part of the arrangements and didn't leave it up to anyone else to ensure you were okay getting to a safe place where you could work out your plan, the "kicking out" discussion took place over the week and not an hour or two, he told you what he was doing, and he took you to the plane.

Not the same way at all by his parents since his parents just drove out of his life an hour or so after finding out he was not going on a mission having done not one thing to ensure he got safely to the next stage.

Otoh, his grandfather played that role.

Yeah, yeah.  You think I was thrilled to sent away?  So what if he took me to the airport?  The difference in details are not of moment.  I've had to make parenting decisions that were made on the spur and that had repercussions that were even more drastic than that in this little matter.  I still refuse to judge.

I do appreciate everyone's fussing about how they are shocked about how this was done.  

But the pearl-clutching is getting tedious.

This was not a little boy.  You most certainly would have made a different decision.  So what.  The kid was not abandoned in the jungle, dumped into the middle of the Atlantic ocean, or drenched with gasoline and set on fire.  

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Yeah, yeah.  You think I was thrilled to sent away?  So what if he took me to the airport?  The difference in details are not of moment.  

If you don't realize the details matter a great deal, I am not sure how to convey the difference.

I have been taken to the airport lots.  I flew more or less free until I got married.  I have also watched a parent drive off telling me to catch a bus (got a meeting!) that was somewhere down there (waved vaguely) when I had never ridden one before and didn't know where it starts or stops, didn't have the right money, when I had expected he would pick me up as they had always done and had dressed according (we always had to dress up as children of employees...plus we might get bumped to first class).  Not fun walking home from the bus spot in heels dragging a semester's weight of clothing in a suitcase without wheels for 2 or 3 miles from the bus spot.

It is night and day to be prepared by parents for change and just dropped in the middle of it.  Like having swimming lessons before being told one is competing in a 50 m breaststroke and being dropped off at a pool with no suit, don't even know what a breaststroke is, and then you hear "you're next'.  It never really occurred to my parents that the best preparation to learn cooking, budgeting, etc. was not us doing our housecleaning chores so hey could cook and budget brilliantly without interruption.  My dad appeared to believe in his gut kids picked up  the how tos just by knowing something  existed, though when he thought about it he understood the need. The day before I left for college he taught me the first thing since he taught me to ride a bike and that was how to wire a plug...which I am great at and think of him fondly when it happens while signing for the lost opportunities of learning how to wire a house, fix a toilet, build a bookshelf.  Stuff I taught myself with a textbook.

Being leftto find my own way to and from the airport with the only instruction being what was allowed...couldnt spend money on easier ways or call others for help because that would be imposing did not teach me independence.  It taught me to hate airports and buses.  It taught me it is safest to just stay at home because even if they leave you there, they will come back.

otoh, a fifteen minute full attention lesson on how to change a plug where he walked me through beginning to end and answered questions until there were no more aided in creating a person that was willing to try to fix almost anything electrical in the house on her own with confidence.

  

Edited July 27, 2017 by Calm

[Duncan]

7 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

They left him for dead - can you explain that.  I missed it somehow, which would be very easy I have not tried to read everything about this.  

I like pitchforks and burning people at the stake that I think are idiots as much as the next fellow, but I think several of you don't have a clue about parenthood or the actual humanity of parents.  When you find that perfect set of parents in this mortal world, please show them to me.  I want to see what standard you are using. 

sure, they left him behind in Bryce Canyon without any provisions, no food, water. Basic morality would indicate you don't deliberatley leave your son behind to fend for himself without anything. My Mom's uncle was training for search and rescue in the 1950's and was dropped in Northern wherever to survive for a week and even they gave him supplies. I'd say most normal Temple Recommend holding parents wouldn't do this to their kids? Which why i'd say they need to have those recommends revoked. Remember "Hot sauce Mom" from Alaska, you think her behaviour should be replicated? no, of course not and she needed modifications. They left their unprepared son in the desert and they are blooming lucky he made it out alive, what kind of people would do that?

[ALarson]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

This was not a little boy.  

Would you feel differently if this had been an 18 year old girl who was abandoned without a phone, food or money?  Just curious if that would make a difference or if you'd feel the same...

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

They left him for dead - can you explain that.  I missed it somehow, which would be very easy I have not tried to read everything about this.  

I like pitchforks and burning people at the stake that I think are idiots as much as the next fellow, but I think several of you don't have a clue about parenthood or the actual humanity of parents.  When you find that perfect set of parents in this mortal world, please show them to me.  I want to see what standard you are using. 

"Left him for dead" is an example of the histrionics that have prevailed in this thread. And when you don't share in the general hysteria but offer a more moderate view, you are accused of defending the action of the parents. 

[Scott Lloyd]

19 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Would you feel differently if this had been an 18 year old girl who was abandoned without a phone, food or money?  Just curious if that would make a difference or if you'd feel the same...

Apples and oranges. Everyone knows that women are generally more vulnerable -- to sexual assaults and such -- than men in such circumstances. That's why a gentleman does not leave a woman to walk unescorted in s dark area at night .

 

I'd be more worried about a woman in her 40s left on her own than a man in his 40s. 

[Duncan]

13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

"Left him for dead" is an example of the histrionics that have prevailed in this thread. And when you don't share in the general hysteria but offer a more moderate view, you are accused of defending the action of the parents. 

What was the parents' plan then when they left him there? If he was so responsible I wonder why they would even take him from their home state and not just send him off on a plane to get to the MTC 

[ALarson]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'd be more worried about a woman in her 40s left on her own than a man in his 40s. 

Oh boy.  Are you sure you believe that?

I know many women in their 40's who are very independent, strong and capable of taking care of themselves.  I'd think that applies to some girls at 18 vs. some boys at 18 too.  

Bottom line is that I think abandoning any 18 year old like these parents did is wrong.  (I know you've stated that you agree.)

[ALarson]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Perhaps. But some still snuck through. Note the word usually in my comment. 

"I think the story is a good lesson of how not to treat questioning children."

That's not a criticism of the church or church leaders.  I actually agree with that statement.

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

"And when we show statistics that Utah has one of the highest rates of youth suicide, (I see this to be connected to the LDS religion, some on here will most definitely disagree) I think this young man could well have thought to try that."

This is getting closer to criticizing the church, but I'd have to see if these suicide rates are really higher in Utah.  I know there's been some discussion regarding this on here but I'm not up to date on the stats.

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

"They chose the wrong road, period, and should be ashamed they let social pressures get the best of them."

Another true statement (about choosing "the wrong road") but we can't be sure if the parents caved to social pressure.  Have we heard their reasons for doing what they did?

 

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

"His parents were abusive rigid Pharisaical Mormon parents."

Well, they could be Pharisaical "any religion" parents.  Or no religion at all.  It was still abusive.

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Is the Church being spared in the other groups talking about it? What about the inevitable interview with Mr. Dehlin?

Like this gem from a popular critical website...

"Like, it’s very clear that Mormonism prioritizes and privileges mission work. To me, if someone asked me who has a more typically Mormon response to mission work: my parents or Alabbas’ parents, I would easily say Alabbas’s parents. Even though I am very fortunate my parents did not have that sort of expectations, I cannot honestly say that that is a particularly orthodox Mormon POV."

I was referencing this thread, not comments from other sites.  I actually don't really follow Dehlin.

If the comments you quoted above are the most critical on this thread (of the church and church leaders), I'd call them mild compared to the comments specifically about the parent's actions.

Edited July 27, 2017 by ALarson

[Bernard Gui]

36 minutes ago, ALarson said:

That's not a criticism of the church or church leaders.  I actually agree with that statement.

This is getting closer to criticizing the church, but I'd have to see if these suicide rates are really higher in Utah.  I know there's been some discussion regarding this on here but I'm not up to date on the stats.

Another true statement (about choosing "the wrong road") but we can't be sure if the parents caved to social pressure.  Have we heard their reasons for doing what they did?

 

Well, they could be Pharisaical "any religion" parents.  Or no religion at all.  It was still abusive.

I was referencing this thread, not comments from other sites.  I actually don't really follow Dehlin.

If the comments you quoted above are the most critical on this thread (of the church and church leaders), I'd call them mild compared to the comments specifically about the parent's actions.

Thank you for responding. We interpret some things differently and that's fine with me. I acknowledged that here reaction against the Church has been mild, but I maintain that it is present nevertheless. My observation was that these agenda-driven attention-seeking dramas are used to shame the Church and I asked if the more subtle approach here is typical of the reaction elsewhere. Unfortunately, it is not.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[ALarson]

27 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you for responding. We interpret some things differently and that's fine with me. I acknowledged that here reaction against the Church has been mild, but I maintain that it is present nevertheless. My observation was that these agenda-driven attention-seeking dramas are used to shame the Church and I asked if the more subtle approach here is typical of the reaction elsewhere. Unfortunately, it is not.

I've only read the comments here, so I can't really address what you're referring to.  I have no doubt there are those elsewhere who made critical comments relating this incident to the church and church leaders.  I'm glad that hasn't taken place here (for the most part).

[Jeanne]

15 hours ago, california boy said:

Of course I agree with you.  But what is it with all these TBM defending the actions of these parents.  Where do they get this notion  that the actions of these parents should be defended.  

I. too, am having trouble with the defense.  To me, these parents have defied the very teachings that were instilled in their son.

Parents, of course, want their children to become responsible, respectful adults...this begins with making beds..taking care of their rooms and pets.  They want to make sure that they can wash clothes..balance monies and all those things that make ready for adulthood.  In a faithful home, (any faith)..it is important that to them that they share said faith and prayer.  I understand this.  For this reason, the spiritual aspect of growth in a child that is about to become an adult is very different.  No doubt this young man was taught what all of us was taught.  Just before baptism we have lessons on the commitment and the importance of the Holy Ghost..that we are now accountable for those decisions and to listen to that still small voice.  In understanding all of this comes the principle of free agency and it entails every aspect of the gospel and all other teachings of the church.

Now..being 18...can wash clothes ..make some decisions ..good or bad..they are asked to take a spiritual journey of 2 years...this will impact him spiritually...and has really nothing to do with all those other things they may have been taught.  It is different because he knows that it is his choice..God gave him that with contract of baptism.

What the parents did might have made a war in heaven with the parents taking the side of Satan...we will force..or find a way to force ..and take away that agency for your own good.  And the glory..won't be for the son..nor even for God..but for the parents themselves.

The covenant this young man made at 8 years old is valid..per all teachings...the choice..whatever it may be, belongs to him.  Any other obstacles or problems within the family does not change this. 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Jeanne

[Rain]

I'd like to clear up a few things after watching the video. I'm not defending or criticizing the parents doing this. I just keep hearing things said that were not said or said differently than the video.

1. We don't know if he was left without food, water, money or a phone. He doesn't say either way. He says he was dropped off with his suitcases, but we don't know everything in them nor do we know if anything else was left with him. He also says he wasn't sure what to do with himself at that point. As you listen through what he said that is consistent with him saying he didn't know what he would do with his life AND consistent with saying he didn't know what to do at that moment.  He could be talking about one or both or neither. Either way we don't know about the food, water, money or phone.

2. He did NOT call his grandpa. He thinks his mom might have called him. We don't know if Grandpa just decided to come or if mom asked him to come or if there was any other reason he came.

3. While he says he is from Washington he also says he was raised in Riverton, UT (the city where his grandpa lives). He moved to Washington sometime later when his mom married his step dad. (This is all interesting to me since I last lived in Riverton and was in Bryce last week). 

4. He says his mom/parents? (I forgot which) filled out his papers and then he skips going to interviews and medical stuff that would have been required. 

Not intended to change minds either way. Just want to clear things up that people are either saying things incorrectly or without having enough info to say - unless there is more info that I have missed not included in the Facebook post.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Rain

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

I. too, am having trouble with the defense.  To me, these parents have defied the very teachings that were instilled in their son.

Parents, of course, want their children to become responsible, respectful adults...this begins with making beds..taking care of their rooms and pets.  They want to make sure that they can wash clothes..balance monies and all those things that make ready for adulthood.  In a faithful home, (any faith)..it is important that to them that they share said faith and prayer.  I understand this.  For this reason, the spiritual aspect of growth in a child that is about to become an adult is very different.  No doubt this young man was taught what all of us was taught.  Just before baptism we have lessons on the commitment and the importance of the Holy Ghost..that we are now accountable for those decisions and to listen to that still small voice.  In understanding all of this comes the principle of free agency and it entails every aspect of the gospel and all other teachings of the church.

Now..being 18...can wash clothes ..make some decisions ..good or bad..they are asked to take a spiritual journey of 2 years...this will impact him spiritually...and has really nothing to do with all those other things they may have been taught.  It is different because he knows that it is his choice..God gave him that with contract of baptism.

What the parents did might have made a war in heaven with the parents taking the side of Satan...we will force..or find a way to force ..and take away that agency for your own good.  And the glory..won't be for the son..nor even for God..but for the parents themselves.

The covenant this young man made at 8 years old is valid..per all teachings...the choice..whatever it may be, belongs to him.  Any other obstacles or problems within the family does not change this. 

No, Jeanne that is not accurate.  This is a common misunderstanding of personal agency and Satan's plan.  To force is to remove consequences of one's personal choice - there is no choice.  What the parents did, whether you or I agree with their process, is provide a choice and consequences.  Do you see the difference?  There is nothing in common with the two.  It is great to stand on a box, beat your chest, rip your clothes and fall down with crocodile tears pouring from your eyes for the sack of good drama and to shame the parents, but it is just not reality.  

My father wasn't LDS.  He raised us seven children and each of us heard as we were growing up that when we each turned 18 he was breaking our dinner plate i.e. we were going to be out of the house.  Guess what?  Each of us where gone by the time we were 18.  We were either in school - which we individually paid for - or we joined the workforce full time.  Not a single one of my brothers or sisters stayed home after high school graduation because we each knew what our responsibility was.  Some would view that as harsh, but it was just his style of parenting.  It was not abusive, but it was firm.  He clearly drew the line about the future for us.  

[ALarson]

18 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

My father wasn't LDS.  He raised us seven children and each of us heard as we were growing up that when we each turned 18 he was breaking our dinner plate i.e. we were going to be out of the house.  Guess what?  Each of us where gone by the time we were 18.  We were either in school - which we individually paid for - or we joined the workforce full time.  Not a single one of my brothers or sisters stayed home after high school graduation because we each knew what our responsibility was.  Some would view that as harsh, but it was just his style of parenting.  It was not abusive, but it was firm.  He clearly drew the line about the future for us.  

And once again, that is not the same as what took place here.  Your Dad prepared you and you were given ample advance notice.  I do hope however, that everything turned out well for all seven of you!