Parents leave son in Bryce Canyon-thoughts?

[Scott Lloyd]

37 minutes ago, california boy said:

When I first read about this in the thread, I in no way blamed the church for the appalling behavior of these parents.  But as I read so many defending the actions or even rationalizing the actions of the parents, it has become obvious that it is a problem with the church that is creating a culture where something so wrong is supported and defended.  And many of those defending these parents actions are the ones that are most vigilant in defending the church's positions.  It is looking like more of a problem than just one case of bad parents.  

There is no defense for this kind of behavior of any parent no matter what church they belong to.  

 

35 minutes ago, california boy said:

Sin, even if legalized by man, is still sin in the eyes of God. – Elder Russell M. Nelson

It appears you are attacking me. Yet I have said repeatedly that I don't condone what the parents did in this scenario.

I also have not seen a lot of what you characterize as "defending" or "rationalizing" the parents' actions on this thread. What I have seen is the suggestion that perhaps we don't have enough information on which to form a competent judgment.

So maybe you ought to stand down as opposed to engaging in yet more public shaming of the Church of Jesus Christ and its adherents just because not everyone is so quick to rush to judgment as you seem to be.

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[california boy]

18 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

It appears you are attacking me. Yet I have said repeatedly that I don't condone what the parents did in this scenario.

I also have not seen a lot of what you characterize as "defending" or "rationalizing" the parents' actions on this thread. What I have seen is the suggestion that perhaps we don't have enough information on which to form a competent judgment.

So maybe you ought to stand down as opposed to engaging in yet more public shaming of the Church of Jesus Christ and its adherents just because not everyone is so quick to rush to judgment as you seem to be.

 

I wasn't targeting you, but I can certainly see why you think I might be.  Your post on this issues is totally passive aggressive.  

This is your words.

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Not condoning the parents' behavior, and definitely not what I would have done. 

Then you defend the parents decision by these remarks.

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But I have to wonder why he was in a frame of mind to listen to the grandparents but not the parents. Did the shock of being left momentarily to live by his wits have anything to do with it? 

Also, my hunch is that he would not have been so willing under other circumstances to go stay with the grandparents and listen to them. 

 

Other comments supporting the parent's decision by members of the church.

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Anijen

1. If I am an 18-20 year old I wouldn't have blamed my parents at all.

1.  

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rpm

May I suggest you read Swallows and Amazons by Arthur Ransome?    Unless he is disabled, 19 year olds are adults and ought to be considered fully competent to be dropped anywhere at all, including being financially prepared.   And it is not the parents' job to make him so at that point either.   Yes, I understand that our world is different and too many young people aren't prepared for real life.   But any expectation  that parents remain responsible for that generally at age 19 is not in the young person's best interest.

 

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Rodheadlee

Are you kidding? Old enough to vote, old enough to join the the Marines, Navy, Army or Air Force among others. Old enough to kill and be killed in battle.Old enough to get himself home.

 

 

 

 

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Storm Rider

I know individuals who have paid thousands of dollars to go on excursions, trips, etc., to learn about life skills and being independent.  Were these parents abusive to their young son? No, I don't see it as abusive.  Nor do I see any other parent here capable of judging the situation with such limited facts.  Would I make the same choice?  No, I don't think I would have.  However, I have not walked in the shoes of these parents either.  Did the grandparents say the right things?  Obviously!  I suggest we keep the condemnation to ourselves and live our own lives, make our own decisions about how to assist our children transition from childhood to adulthood.  

Regardless of our personal feelings I have yet to meet a perfect parent. I have met those I truly admire as being great parents in challenging situations.  What this couple did was a drastic choice, but it worked and they did not have to pay $2500 for the experience of a lifetime.

 

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Scott Lloyd

Once a child passes the age of majority (18) a parent is under no legal obligation to pay for his food, shelter, clothing or education. Or is my understanding incorrect on that?

 

What these parents did is appalling whether it is illegal or not..  Like I said Scott, quoting your tag line from your profile

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Sin, even if legalized by man, is still sin in the eyes of God. – Elder Russell M. Nelson

 

It's not nice to call another poster passive aggressive.

[Gray]

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when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved

 

[bluebell]

Most of us are parents, and most of us have done some things that others would probably consider sinful/appalling.  Knowing that it was not good that the parents left their son with no way to care for himself, is this an example of 'let he who is without sin among you, cast the first stone...'?

 

[Gray]

36 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Most of us are parents, and most of us have done some things that others would probably consider sinful/appalling.  Knowing that it was not good that the parents left their son with no way to care for himself, is this an example of 'let he who is without sin among you, cast the first stone...'?

 

Yes, being a parent means screwing up. But, that doesn't mean that screwing up should be celebrated, as some seem to think.

[ALarson]

13 minutes ago, Gray said:

Yes, being a parent means screwing up. But, that doesn't mean that screwing up should be celebrated, as some seem to think.

There are also different levels of "screwing up".  Leaving this boy as they did is a pretty horrendous (and potentially very dangerous) screw up.  No parent is perfect, but come on...

Gratefully he wasn't harmed, but that doesn't change the fact that what these parents did was very, very wrong.

[Gray]

16 minutes ago, ALarson said:

There are also different levels of "screwing up".  Leaving this boy as they did is a pretty horrendous (and potentially very dangerous) screw up.  No parent is perfect, but come on...

Gratefully he wasn't harmed, but that doesn't change the fact that what these parents did was very, very wrong.

Indeed. I hope they've come to their senses.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

Yes, being a parent means screwing up. But, that doesn't mean that screwing up should be celebrated, as some seem to think.

I can't speak for other people, but it seems like there is more nuance in those 'celebrated' posts than other posters are willing to acknowledge.  I could have missed something, but there are probably only 1 or 2 posts (out of four pages) that could maybe be described as celebrating the parents leaving the boy.  

For most of the others who have condemned the action while including a "but", there seems to be many different reasons the 'but' was included, none of which seem to be celebration of it.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

There are also different levels of "screwing up".  Leaving this boy as they did is a pretty horrendous (and potentially very dangerous) screw up.  No parent is perfect, but come on...

Gratefully he wasn't harmed, but that doesn't change the fact that what these parents did was very, very wrong.

Adultery is also very very wrong though, right?  It doesn't seem like the level of sin (whether it's just run of the mill wrong, or very wrong) matters when it comes to when we can righteously judge someone.  We know there are times when we need to judge, and we also know that there are times when we shouldn't judge and instead need to leave it in the hands of God, showing mercy as we want God to show mercy to us.  

Why do you feel that this is one of those times when God condones our judgement of these parents?  (sincere question, open to all posters who have felt comfortable judging the parents to answer).

[ALarson]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Adultery is also very very wrong though, right?  It doesn't seem like the level of sin (whether it's just run of the mill wrong, or very wrong) matters when it comes to when we can righteously judge someone.  We know there are times when we need to judge, and we also know that there are times when we shouldn't judge and instead need to leave it in the hands of God, showing mercy as we want God to show mercy to us.  

Why do you feel that this is one of those times when God condones our judgement of these parents?  (sincere question, open to all posters who have felt comfortable judging the parents to answer).

I don't know if God "condones our judgement of these parents", but we have to use our own common sense here and mine tells me this was wrong and could have been potentially dangerous or harmful.  I'm not saying these parents are horrible parents, but in this instance, they did not make a good choice (IMO).

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I don't know if God "condones our judgement of these parents", but we have to use our own common sense here and mine tells me this was wrong and could have been potentially dangerous or harmful.  I'm not saying these parents are horrible parents, but in this instance, they did not make a good choice (IMO).

I agree.

I'm not really questioning whether or not it's appropriate to think the parents were wrong or vocalize that they were wrong.  I'm more questioning whether or not, in general (and not to you personally), it's appropriate to castigate them on a message board thread in order to prove this isn't the church's fault, etc. (going off of California Boys previous post on the topic).

 

[Duncan]

I get that in past days people left home at 18 to join the military, the railways, etc. but these parents just left their kid,  to do what? it wasn't to join the military, railways, or whatever what did they expect was going to happen? Honestly, if I was their Bishop i'd be like, "let me see those recommends again"

[sunstoned]

17 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don't altogether trust what has been reported. I think it must be incomplete at best.

 

It has been reported on several venues.  But, I am in agreement.  I really doubt we know the whole story, which if I were to guess started months before the car tip to the MTC.

[omni]

I think it should be noted that when asked about the incident a year later, instead of expressing regret for a rash decision, the mother doubled down and stated she had no regrets.  

To add insult to injury, she essentially stated God told her (she felt inspired) to abandon her son.  

She may have been inspired, but I'm not so sure it was God.

[The Nehor]

I support the decision if the parents were actually inspired to do what they did but I REALLY doubt their story and have seen too many real life 'after the fact' spiritual rationalizations used by bad people to justify bad decisions.

My private suspicion is that if God had anything to do with the scenario it was using the opportunity the (I presume) nutbag parents presented to get them out of the picture so someone (grandpa) could actually, you know, be an effective parent for this kid when he needed it.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I agree.

I'm not really questioning whether or not it's appropriate to think the parents were wrong or vocalize that they were wrong.  I'm more questioning whether or not, in general (and not to you personally), it's appropriate to castigate them on a message board thread in order to prove this isn't the church's fault, etc. (going off of California Boys previous post on the topic).

 

And some (most? all?) of those who are castigating the parents seem steadfastly determined to ignore what is essentially a happy ending to this scenario: The grandfather reached out to his grandson in love, was able to reason with him, the young man turned his attitude around, soon had a spiritual experience in the MTC and is well on his way to having a successful mission.

One poster here, Pete Ahlstrom, reacted with hostility toward me when I mentioned the happy ending. It was as though he didn't want it distracting from the vindictiveness and the weaponizing of this incident as a means to attack the Church of Jesus Christ (insinuating that "social pressure" -- from whom if not other Mormons? -- caused the parents' behavior).

Given his post to me, I'm wondering if California Boy is not harboring the same attitude. 

Of course, I'm certain there are those who just hate the fact that the young man changed his course so dramatically and became a good missionary. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I support the decision if the parents were actually inspired to do what they did but I REALLY doubt their story and have seen too many real life 'after the fact' spiritual rationalizations used by bad people to justify bad decisions.

My private suspicion is that if God had anything to do with the scenario it was using the opportunity the (I presume) nutbag parents presented to get them out of the picture so someone (grandpa) could actually, you know, be an effective parent for this kid when he needed it.

I'm with you.  I can think of some scenarios where God (who knows the son and what would transpire in the situation) might inspire a parent to do something that drastic, but I'm not comfortable assuming it was inspiration just because the mother said it was (and thankfully, there's no reason for me to have to decide so....).

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And some (most? all?) of those who are castigating the parents seem steadfastly determined to ignore what is essentially a happy ending to this scenario: The grandfather reached out to his grandson in love, was able to reason with him, the young man turned his attitude around, soon had a spiritual experience and is well on his way to having a successful mission.

One poster here, Pete Ahlstrom, reacted with hostility toward me when I mentioned the happy ending. It was as though he didn't want it distracting from the vindictiveness and the weaponizing of this incident as a means to attack the Church of Jesus Christ (insinuating that "social pressure" -- from whom if not other Mormons -- caused the parents' behavior. 

Given his post to me, I'm wondering if California Boy is not harboring the same attitude. 

Of course, I'm certain there are those who just hate the fact that the young man changed his course so dramatically and became a good missionary. 

I don't personally think that CB or Pete are secretly trying to attack the church, or that either are upset that the boy went on a mission.  I think they just really think what the parents did was horrible and that they are fighting against any inkling that there was any benefit to it.  

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm with you.  I can think of some scenarios where God (who knows the son and what would transpire in the situation) might inspire a parent to do something that drastic, but I'm not comfortable assuming it was inspiration just because the mother said it was (and thankfully, there's no reason for me to have to decide so....).

I'm not comfortable with an assumption either way. 

Mainly, I find it deplorable that what should be very private family business went viral and is now being bandied about by tongue-clucking  strangers as though it were the stuff of the latest grocery store tabloid. 

Does anyone here know if the family consented to it being made public in the first place? I know the missionary made a video, but was that after the incident had gone viral?

[Calm]

The mother did not have to consent to speak with the reporter.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

The mother did not have to consent to speak with the reporter.

Was that the first occurrence of this going public? Did the mother contact the reporter or the other way around? Did she feel obliged to speak out to set the record straight, as it were? 

I'm really not well versed in this thing, as you can tell.

 

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm not comfortable with an assumption either way. 

Mainly, I find it deplorable that what should be very private family business went viral and is now being bandied about by tongue-clucking  strangers as though it were the stuff of the latest grocery store tabloid. 

Does anyone here know if the family consented to it being made public in the first place? I know the missionary made a video, but was that after the incident had gone viral?

do you find what they did less deplorable than how it got out? 

[Storm Rider]

On 7/23/2017 at 2:40 PM, Pete Ahlstrom said:

The need to defend is very strong with you. I would think anyone looking from the outside would blame the parents and not the church.

The need to defend what or whom?  I don't blame the parents or the church in this situation.  In fact, I don't blame anyone here.  The parents made a choice, the son made a choice and the grandparents made a choice - I don't put a judgment on any of their choices.

[Storm Rider]

On 7/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, katherine the great said:

Parenting is hard. It's the hardest job I have ever had for sure because it never ends. If you are describing the "wilderness" experiences, they are usualIy reserved for kids with behavior and drug problems-not kids unsure of their testimony (or else parents with money to burn). A missionary's job is to bring people into the church. If a kid doesn't believe in the church him/herself, its a kind of hypocrisy to go out and persuade other people to join the church. I still see these parent's actions as bizarre and its too soon to say that "it worked." It got the kid on a mission yes (if that was mom's only goal) but he hasn't even seen his parents yet so its too soon to say what the fallout will be as far as a future relationship. Its probably fortunate that this is a son and not a daughter. I don't think most daughters would ever really get over something like that. On a positive note, the grandparents were magnificent.

Hello Katherine, I guess my feeling is that I am hopeful that each person involved will find their own way to being better.  I neither condone or condemn the actions of these parents. 

There are far more programs or experiences that people pay for to teach them self-reliance i.e. it is not reserved for children with problems.  

We all can judge other parents - I have a nephew and his wife; the wife just decided that they would be vegan. I view her as flighty and interested in fads.  Their six year old son was supposedly not going to eat vegan because he said he did not want to and the parents felt it was not appropriate for young children.  It took all of two weeks for the mom to start saying - "Jack, you have already had a piece of chicken today and that's it."  If you want my judgment I think humans are idiots and most of us should NOT be allowed to raise children.  However, since I can judge all I want and it will never change anything I will continue to marvel at how resilient humans are; both children and adults.  Being raised by idiots and to personally do really stupid things children still are capable of functioning in society.

I would never choose to force a child to serve a mission.  However, I would really like to understand their motivations for such a choice.  If their motivations reside in fear of the experience then I would certainly respond differently from one where the young person did not believe and had demonstrated that belief for some time. 

[Pete Ahlstrom]

9 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

The need to defend what or whom?  I don't blame the parents or the church in this situation.  In fact, I don't blame anyone here.  The parents made a choice, the son made a choice and the grandparents made a choice - I don't put a judgment on any of their choices.

It looked like your earlier post was an attempt to justify the wrong conduct of the mother and the weak response of the father in his acquiecence to his wife. Leaving the son, suddenly and without warning, just because he was getting cold feet, was wrong plain and simple. Children need to learn responsibility and self reliance to be sure. However, obviously, this was not the time and place for that lesson.

It's ok to condemn mormons who do bad things surrounding their efforts to encourage their kids to go on missions. People, including members, do bad things at times. However, one doesn't have to have a knee jerk defend at all costs response here. Obviously, the church didn't condone the behavior and it was a bad choice to publicize the story. But the isolated conduct of one member doesn't reflect the entire church population. I think everyone can see it.