How wild can Sunday school get?

[bluebell]

This last Sunday we had one member include not eating GMOs as part of the Word of Wisdom, and we also had a discussion about how alcohol isn't bad in and of itself and how exciting some people are to someday drink wine again.  I'm not saying that both of those were obviously wrong; i'm using them as examples of how sometimes the discussion takes an unexpected turn.   

I've never been in a Sunday school class that got really rowdy or contentious but i've heard stories and just wondered what people on the board had seen or participated in?  How bad can it get?  

Is it better for Sunday school to go off the rails sometimes to keep everyone engaged or is it better if everyone just 'goes along to get along' and keeps the peace?  For example, no one said a word to "GMOs are evil" guy and everyone just let that slid.  Should we have pushed back on that?

 

[cinepro]

We had a frequent contributor in our class say "The wonderful thing about the Word of Wisdom is that it never changes."  She then went on to talk about how the "world" is always changing its nutrition advice and so on, but the Word of Wisdom never, ever changes.

I couldn't take it, so I raised my hand and offered the contrary opinion that D&C 89 is more of a historical document that outlines general principles and that the "Word of Wisdom" itself is continually updated and adapted to the times and cultures in which LDS live.  

I pointed out that it's especially important when teaching the youth to acknowledge we don't necessarily follow the letter of the law as outlined in D&C 89, but to use our own "wisdom" and the guidance of leaders to understand how it applies to us in our day.

There wasn't any debate over the issue, but I did pretty clearly contradict the first woman.

 

[Jeanne]

37 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This last Sunday we had one member include not eating GMOs as part of the Word of Wisdom, and we also had a discussion about how alcohol isn't bad in and of itself and how exciting some people are to someday drink wine again.  I'm not saying that both of those were obviously wrong; i'm using them as examples of how sometimes the discussion takes an unexpected turn.   

I've never been in a Sunday school class that got really rowdy or contentious but i've heard stories and just wondered what people on the board had seen or participated in?  How bad can it get?  

Is it better for Sunday school to go off the rails sometimes to keep everyone engaged or is it better if everyone just 'goes along to get along' and keeps the peace?  For example, no one said a word to "GMOs are evil" guy and everyone just let that slid.  Should we have pushed back on that?

 

Well as long as they weren't pretending they were drunk and doing the hokie pokie..it is all good..

[Robert F. Smith]

41 minutes ago, bluebell said:

......................................no one said a word to "GMOs are evil" guy and everyone just let that slid.  Should we have pushed back on that?

Mormons are a very tolerant and kindly group in such cases.  We often roll our collective eyes when an older member of the class goes off on an unrelated or irrelevant tangent.  Happily the teacher usually quickly gets us back on course.

[RevTestament]

I kept my mouth shut, but I wanted to say that the Word of Wisdom is not a commandment, and it is still not a sin to drink a glass of wine. I personally also believe it was not meant to exclude beer(weak drink made from barley). The leadership has made it a condition of going to the temple, so I follow it. However, I don't believe I need to repent of drinking a cup of wine. I believe I may follow the WoW closer than many members as I usually don't have more than one helping of meat per day, and make vegetables, grains, seeds and nuts the staple of my diet. However, I do love the smell of tobacco...green that is... not burning.
i have never really seen a SS get out of control. If anything I am probably the center of perceived lack of disorder more times than I care to be. 

[Duncan]

I taught ours, it went okay, although one member brought how he hates the PM for introducing medical marijuana, most people ignored him though, he tends to bring up politics or potentially controversial stuff and again most people ignore him. We kind of talked about addiction and how too much of a good thing can be disastrous. We talked a bit about the history of the WOW and people talked about their ancestors drinking coffee, wine etc and they went to the Temple. We talked about  how you can overcorrect someone in a WOW addiction and make it worse and we need compassion, I shared the story of Elder Royden Derrick, that had that happen in his family. One lady told us she smokes and is trying to overcome it and others chimed with their stories about overcoming their addictions. We even had three visitors from Utah, they were sent to spy on us but all in all it went fairly smoothly

 

To me a class depends on the teacher, I know a few people that what they teach they think is God's  undeviating truth and their thinking is right,  heaven forbid you contradict them, but I try to just to make them get all huffy I taught the teacher's council and one lady says she has no problem with symbolism in the scriptures and Temple so she doesn't struggle with figuring out what means what.................I left it alone. I have been in classes where raised voices were heard and the teacher had to outshout people but never any fistfighting or anything like that

Edited June 20, 2017 by Duncan

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

This last Sunday we had one member include not eating GMOs as part of the Word of Wisdom, and we also had a discussion about how alcohol isn't bad in and of itself and how exciting some people are to someday drink wine again.  I'm not saying that both of those were obviously wrong; i'm using them as examples of how sometimes the discussion takes an unexpected turn.   

I've never been in a Sunday school class that got really rowdy or contentious but i've heard stories and just wondered what people on the board had seen or participated in?  How bad can it get?  

Is it better for Sunday school to go off the rails sometimes to keep everyone engaged or is it better if everyone just 'goes along to get along' and keeps the peace?  For example, no one said a word to "GMOs are evil" guy and everyone just let that slid.  Should we have pushed back on that?

 

I have taught Gospel Doctrine as a calling several times during my lifetime.  The most egregious statement I have ever heard while teaching a class was when the class thought obedience to the WofW was more important than Chastity.  It completely blew my mind...and I cried at the lack of understanding.  It was difficult for me.  

I taught this lesson and it went smoothly this year.  My point is that the WofW is exactly what it says - I encouraged the members as I have always encouraged them - to read the text and add nothing to it.  The promise is there based strictly on what is mentioned or intended. It is not intended for anything else from a prohibition on Coca-cola to eating like a vegetarian.  This piece of wisdom has been distorted and used to create more havoc and misunderstanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ than a great many other things.  

It is one of the areas of Church teaching that I wished changed or had never been instituted as a requirement to enter the temple.  It is a temporal law that has been expanded to affect eternal covenants.  It saddens me but it is what it is.  

Going off the rails?  Very seldom but there is the occasional remark from far out center field (left or right) and we gloss over it with relative ease.  

[JLHPROF]

I am always torn between allowing interesting segues and avoiding gospel hobbies and conspiracy theories.

But personally I love it when we go off manual.

My ward had two teachers for a while.  One who went line by line through the manual.  One who used the manual for the topic but went much deeper.  Guess which weeks had better turnouts...

Sadly the wildest things I've observed were the older sister who basically did a spit take when he taught that Shem was Melchizedek and the older brother who went up to the teacher after a lesson on the Good Samaritan and told him he wasn't sure he liked the deeper alternative symbolism in the parable.  He said he preferred the basic love you neighbor interpretation.  (The lesson came right out of the Ensign).

[Rain]

I haven't seen much controversial  discussion with people, but have heard interesting comments. 

I did live in a ward of strong republicans and the state democrat senate candidate once. You would think that might get heated, but he just always talked about how much the "brethren" talked to him about running his campaign right and the Republicans just rolled their eyes. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

 If anything I am probably the center of perceived lack of disorder more times than I care to be. 

Yes I notice that you are aggressively calm too.

But is perceived lack of disorder really lack of disorder?  Or is it disorder masquerading as order?

These metaphysical questions get really tough sometimes.

Edited June 20, 2017 by mfbukowski

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

.............................................. We even had three visitors from Utah, they were sent to spy on us but all in all it went fairly smoothly

............................................................................

The Three Nephites?

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The Three Nephites?

one of them was a woman so maybe a Nephette?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

............................ I wanted to say that the Word of Wisdom is not a commandment, and it is still not a sin to drink a glass of wine. I personally also believe it was not meant to exclude beer(weak drink made from barley). The leadership has made it a condition of going to the temple, so I follow it. However, I don't believe I need to repent of drinking a cup of wine. ........................................

When first received, the Word of Wisdom was simply good advice, with benefits clearly stated.  However, it has now become a commandment.

Many of the Brethren used alcoholic beverages and medicinal alcohol in the 19th century.  Many of them smoked and chewed tobacco.  Times have changed.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

one of them was a woman so maybe a Nephette?

Don't let OW hear you say that.

[Darren10]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

This last Sunday we had one member include not eating GMOs as part of the Word of Wisdom, and we also had a discussion about how alcohol isn't bad in and of itself and how exciting some people are to someday drink wine again.  I'm not saying that both of those were obviously wrong; i'm using them as examples of how sometimes the discussion takes an unexpected turn.   

I've never been in a Sunday school class that got really rowdy or contentious but i've heard stories and just wondered what people on the board had seen or participated in?  How bad can it get?  

Is it better for Sunday school to go off the rails sometimes to keep everyone engaged or is it better if everyone just 'goes along to get along' and keeps the peace?  For example, no one said a word to "GMOs are evil" guy and everyone just let that slid.  Should we have pushed back on that?

 

I like GMOs and strongly support them. In fact, I credit them to feeding a lot more people in the world than otherwise would be fed. I would have likely replied as such in your Sunday School class but leave it at that. There is no direct doctrine on GMOs, at least in the Doctrine and Covenants, and definitely no Church prohibition to creating and consuming them.

Our Sunday School discussion delved into how the bubble gum cigarettes enticed kids to eventually smoke and that caffeine is bad. We also talked about the medicinal benefits of marijuana.

My comments on these matters were: bubble gum cigarettes were VERY cool, caffeine is not inherently bad but it can easily be overused, I drink Coke and so as Bishop I don't think I'd refuse anyone a temple recommend based on their consuming caffeine, and while there is definitely good medicinal properties in marijuana, its current push for legalization is , base on me, Brother Zechiel, based much more on simply getting legal access to marijuana than to use is medicinally. also, the LDS Church does not oppose medical marijuana but prudently calls for careful research and use of it for medicinal needs.

It  was an interesting discussion setting and I think I did good.

[Darren10]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Mormons are a very tolerant and kindly group in such cases.  We often roll our collective eyes when an older member of the class goes off on an unrelated or irrelevant tangent.  Happily the teacher usually quickly gets us back on course.

"We often roll our collective eyes when an older member of the class goes off on an unrelated or irrelevant tangent."

Robert...what did you do this time?

[BlueDreams]

My weirdest wasn't in sunday school really, but a RS lesson where they had time on fast sunday and opened it to testimonies (this was on my mission). There were 2 women in the ward who had opposing views as to where or what the missionaries (ie. us, at the time) should or shouldn't go. There was legitimate reasons why this was a concern. The one woman's family member had recently had a break-in in that neighborhood in question and been raped. It wasn't exactly the safest place. But we had several people we regularly visited there. Each had individually voiced their concerns. Each we slightly disagreed with but were kind to about it. But the one decided to give a testimony about us and our bravery, while making remarks that made it clear she would assume we would stop. And the other woman then stood up and gave a counter-testimony, also about us. At the very least it was definitely awkward. 

I've seen people disagree or say some off remarks, but I honestly don't remember a super hairy sunday school meeting. 

Edited June 20, 2017 by BlueDreams

[Five Solas]

If my wife was LDS and didn't concern herself with things like "organic" and "non-GMO" because the WOW never contemplated them (and contemporary LDS leadership discloses no point of view on such topics)--our family could save a whole lot of money by *not* shopping at Whole Foods.  Easily cover the LDS tithe with money to spare!

Perhaps if any remaining LDS missionaries in Seattle turned this into a sales pitch--their fortunes could be turned.  Mormonism as a value proposition: "Shop at Safeway, Monson says it's okay."  That has a certain rhyme to it, no?  Get it on the side of all the Metro busses, way more compelling than all that previous, "I'm a Mormon" spend. 

;0)

--Erik

[strappinglad]

Apparently someone brought up the WoW in the Ukraine....

 

 

[Darren10]

38 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

If my wife was LDS and didn't concern herself with things like "organic" and "non-GMO" because the WOW never contemplated them (and contemporary LDS leadership discloses no point of view on such topics)--our family could save a whole lot of money by *not* shopping at Whole Foods.  Easily cover the LDS tithe with money to spare!

Perhaps if any remaining LDS missionaries in Seattle turned this into a sales pitch--their fortunes could be turned.  Mormonism as a value proposition: "Shop at Safeway, Monson says it's okay."  That has a certain rhyme to it, no?  Get it on the side of all the Metro busses, way more compelling than all that previous, "I'm a Mormon" spend. 

;0)

--Erik

"by *not* shopping at Whole Foods"

You mean Amazon Foods.

[Gillebre]

On my mission we had a sister that insisted during a SS lesson about pre-mortal life that the people on earth who are rapists, murderers, etc... are the third part of the Satan's angels that gained bodies on earth.

the relief society president looked back at me from the front row with a horrified look that begged us as the missionaries to correct the statement. haha.

[RevTestament]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes I notice that you are aggressively calm too.

But is perceived lack of disorder really lack of disorder?  Or is it disorder masquerading as order?

These metaphysical questions get really tough sometimes.

Not really. It's true order perceived as disorder by the sheeple.

[RevTestament]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

When first received, the Word of Wisdom was simply good advice, with benefits clearly stated.  However, it has now become a commandment.

That is basically what our teacher said - probably because that is what the lesson says. I disagree with both your assertions. When it was first received the Word of Wisdom was more than good advice - it was a promise:

1 A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—

2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

3 Given for a principle with promise

Quote

Many of the Brethren used alcoholic beverages and medicinal alcohol in the 19th century.  Many of them smoked and chewed tobacco.  Times have changed.

Yes they have. Somewhere along the line the GAs decided to make at least part of the WoW a requirement to enter the temple. However, it seems to partially misinterpret the WoW which I believe never included beer. Further, it leaves out the positive advice in the WoW - the part about what to eat and what to do. It focuses only on what to avoid, as if what you eat has no importance. I believe it was a way to twist the arm of the people to stop the practices you allude to, which in a way was a good thing. I'm sure somewhere along the lines it got spoken of as a commandment, but I view it merely as a temple requirement. I live it because I am required to to honestly answer temple questions - not because I believe it, which in a way is sad. If it weren't so, I would probably have an occasional cold one after a hot summer day, and a very occasional glass of wine. I have never returned to drinking tea after I joined the Church. I have never smoked - well one puff on a cigarette as a kid which was enough to convince me how terrible they are, a  few tokes of a pipe. Otherwise I would keep the WoW exactly as written, and I believe would receive the blessings thereof. I rarely use any medicines, pain killers or the like. In class I related to how I have used "Oregano" which is not the Greek herb, but basically biblical hyssop, to stop strep throat in its tracks rather than go to the doctor for antibiotics. In some ways the Church became more restrictive and conservative in the 20th century - I believe unnecessarily. But the President holds the temple keys, so I follow the requirements. But to call that a commandment. I don't know. I don't have near the confidence in the modern GAs as I do in JS. They have misinterpreted too much scripture imho - from BY forward - and the times of the Gentiles has reached its fulfillment. The Lord will now bring the promised judgment to the Gentiles. Nevertheless, i am certainly not saying there is any harm in believing the correlated lesson, and following its advice. Indeed, people will do well to do so.

Edited June 20, 2017 by RevTestament

[Marginal Gains]

Here's something I can't wrap my head around about The Word Of Wisdom. Morbidly obese members will be permitted temple  recommends, whereas fit and healthy individuals who drink the odd cup of coffee will not. That seems a very odd enforcement process for a health code.

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

This last Sunday we had one member include not eating GMOs as part of the Word of Wisdom, and we also had a discussion about how alcohol isn't bad in and of itself and how exciting some people are to someday drink wine again.  I'm not saying that both of those were obviously wrong; i'm using them as examples of how sometimes the discussion takes an unexpected turn.   

I've never been in a Sunday school class that got really rowdy or contentious but i've heard stories and just wondered what people on the board had seen or participated in?  How bad can it get?  

Is it better for Sunday school to go off the rails sometimes to keep everyone engaged or is it better if everyone just 'goes along to get along' and keeps the peace?  For example, no one said a word to "GMOs are evil" guy and everyone just let that slid.  Should we have pushed back on that?

 

What's a GMO?

As for alcohol, yes, in this dispensation, the Lord has decreed that it is not for man, and no one should harbor the vain notion that is going to change. 

But I was a gospel doctrine teacher for many years and have been a class member for longer. I've never seen a discussion go off the rails like that. Ours are always stimulating and never boring. 

Maybe our ward is Zion.