RevTestament Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, bluebell said: You're illustrating how nuanced the verses in question are. And they are much much too nuanced for it to ever make sense to say that the Church of the Devil = the Catholic church. There are members of the LDS church who belong to the Church of the Devil and there are members of other church's who belong to the Church of the Lamb. It's a question of who has your heart, as Robinson says, not who has your records. It's not about having a little good or a little bad in you, it's about who you belong to and who you actively seek to follow. Those who are of the church of the devil actively seek to do evil. The Catholic church is not actively, as an institution, seeking to do evil. They seek to do good. They seek to follow Christ. Even if we believe they don't always succeed, that doesn't mean they belong to the Devil. The problem with that interpretation is that it says the devil is not in any church seeking to do some good. I can agree that most churches seek to do some good. That doesn't mean they haven't also caused evil. Yes, you are right that evil can be found in the LDS church - I think the Mountain Meadows Massacre is an example. Hunting down some Indians who killed cattle and killing them without warning is an example. That would be called murder today. But apparently not under BY. But you see, Revelation says there is an entity which once listened to the Lord, but at some point will hear the voice of the Bridegroom no more. There is a city which will be burned by the horns on its heads which it once deceived. Rev 18. That sounds pretty darn concrete to me. In fact it is led by a false prophet.
Calm Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 (edited) 34 minutes ago, RevTestament said: So the devil can exist in a church and lead them astray into apostasy? Introduce false teachings and such? The devil (evil) can exist in any heart and lead us astray. Including into falsely condemning others who stumble, who may even at times have allowed the wrong people to have power over them, but who also like us try to discern right from wrong and seek God the best they know how. It is false pride to believe we are somehow exempt from that particular fate because we have chosen to call ourselves Saints and be among others who do so. If being deceived by evil at times means we are forever members of the GandA, we are all the Church of Satan. Edited June 22, 2017 by Calm 2
Calm Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, RevTestament said: The problem with that interpretation is that it says the devil is not in any church seeking to do some good. I can agree that most churches seek to do some good. That doesn't mean they haven't also caused evil. Yes, you are right that evil can be found in the LDS church - I think the Mountain Meadows Massacre is an example. Hunting down some Indians who killed cattle and killing them without warning is an example. That would be called murder today. But apparently not under BY. But you see, Revelation says there is an entity which once listened to the Lord, but at some point will hear the voice of the Bridegroom no more. There is a city which will be burned by the horns on its heads which it once deceived. Rev 18. That sounds pretty darn concrete to me. In fact it is led by a false prophet. Assume if you want that has to be a specific, identified organization and not a network spread across the face of the earth linking all who lived and live who similarly accepted to follow the path of evil...not just occasionally stumble upon it or even down it for a ways. Since I have never seen a city with a body and head, especially with horns on its head, it sounds more symbolic than concrete to me. Please demonstrate how that organization can be the RC given its longtime emphasis on helping the poor and needy? Edited June 22, 2017 by Calm 1
RevTestament Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 16 minutes ago, Calm said: And so how does this justifying naming the RC since it certainly hasn't existed in other times, on other worlds? Rome was the desolator of Daniel 9 which came and destroyed the city (Jerusalem). By that time ancient Babylon was long gone. It's great stone buildings got carted off by the Seleucids to build their new capitol. So what great city took over the role of opposer? What great city is Revelation talking about? 1 Peter 5:13 13 The church that is at aBabylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son. Where did Peter die? What great city persecuted the early Church? What church sent crusades against other Christians? K. I'm gonna stop now. I didn't really want to do this. Everyone will just get all upset. Let me say that I have absolutely nothing at all against Catholics. However, I believe their teachings departed from scripture, and have led the world astray. Led them individually astray. At the heart are the doctrines of the trinity. However, individually I find many Catholics to be wonderful people. As long as they are doing their best to follow Christ, I don't believe they are damned to hell for all eternity. In many ways I prefer Catholics to those of other Christian sects such as Calvinists, who I often find to be intolerant.
pogi Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 47 minutes ago, RevTestament said: So in your gospel all the other Churches are the LDS Church? And the amorphous bad guys church is the rest of the world? I'm not sure if the living prophets will agree even with that. No, that is not what I am saying. You are equating the Church of the Lamb with the LDS church, and equating the Church of the Devil with the Catholic Church. So where do all the other churches fit in? I am saying that the 2 churches mentioned in scripture are not in any way representative of any earthly organizations or church. I am saying that membership in any earthly organization or church does not guarantee membership in either the church of the Lamb or the church of the devil. It seems obvious that Nephi is not referring to earthly organizations because there are clearly more than just 2 churches on earth. Think about it, the only people capable receiving eternal damnation and outer darkness are Mormons - not Catholics. 2
Calm Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 17 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Let me say that I have absolutely nothing at all against Catholics. However, I believe their teachings departed from scripture, and have led the world astray. Led them individually astray. At the heart are the doctrines of the trinity. However, individually I find many Catholics to be wonderful people. As long as they are doing their best to follow Christ, I don't believe they are damned to hell for all eternity. In many ways I prefer Catholics to those of other Christian sects such as Calvinists, who I often find to be intolerant. And yet these wonderful people belong to the Church of Satan and thus are followers who have given their hearts and minds to Satan.... Don't you see the contradiction? 2
bluebell Posted June 22, 2017 Author Posted June 22, 2017 41 minutes ago, RevTestament said: The problem with that interpretation is that it says the devil is not in any church seeking to do some good. I can agree that most churches seek to do some good. That doesn't mean they haven't also caused evil. Yes, you are right that evil can be found in the LDS church - I think the Mountain Meadows Massacre is an example. Hunting down some Indians who killed cattle and killing them without warning is an example. That would be called murder today. But apparently not under BY. But you see, Revelation says there is an entity which once listened to the Lord, but at some point will hear the voice of the Bridegroom no more. There is a city which will be burned by the horns on its heads which it once deceived. Rev 18. That sounds pretty darn concrete to me. In fact it is led by a false prophet. It sounds symbolic to me.
Duncan Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 3 hours ago, Spammer said: Well. The RC is the Whore of Babylon canard rears its ahistorical head. This is the issue that first brought me to this board. I was baptized and chrismated as a Roman Catholic in 2008. Sometime in 2012 (I don't remember when exactly), my son came home from church one day very upset. His priestood quorum advisor went off on Catholics during a lesson that referenced the very same church of the devil verse and statements by past church leaders referenced in this thread. His old man was Catholic, church leaders knew it, and he had to sit there listening to that ridiculous argument. From that day forward, he refused to ever attend the LDS church again. He went for a few more months, forced by my wife, but the frequent Sunday morning battles between my wife and son over church and ongoing gossip spoken to her face about me by relief society sisters (I violated my temple covenants when I left the church. I must not love my family! Maybe I'm having an affair!) were too much and now my wife no longer attends. Once she stopped, the younger boy also stopped. I was perfectly fine with my family going to the LDS church and I would go with them, but that's all over now. None of us have set foot in an LDS wardhouse since 2013. I'm the only one now that attends any church at all. The rest of my family appears to be done with church completely and all because of the spark provided by a a single youth lesson on a Sunday morning five years ago. Five generations of church membership in our families on both sides and now it's over. It's really kind of sad. You should move here, we have a High Councilor who attends the Catholic Church!
Jeanne Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 (edited) 41 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Rome was the desolator of Daniel 9 which came and destroyed the city (Jerusalem). By that time ancient Babylon was long gone. It's great stone buildings got carted off by the Seleucids to build their new capitol. So what great city took over the role of opposer? What great city is Revelation talking about? 1 Peter 5:13 13 The church that is at aBabylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son. Where did Peter die? What great city persecuted the early Church? What church sent crusades against other Christians? K. I'm gonna stop now. I didn't really want to do this. Everyone will just get all upset. Let me say that I have absolutely nothing at all against Catholics. However, I believe their teachings departed from scripture, and have led the world astray. Led them individually astray. At the heart are the doctrines of the trinity. However, individually I find many Catholics to be wonderful people. As long as they are doing their best to follow Christ, I don't believe they are damned to hell for all eternity. In many ways I prefer Catholics to those of other Christian sects such as Calvinists, who I often find to be intolerant. The catholics that I know talk to me about their feelings about their own church. I think they do what a lot of us do They take the good things and try to apply them. However, my friends have also recognized and admit that their church has made huge mistakes. All we can do as Christians is to love God..and love our neighbors and hope that it shines enough that evil can be only an opposition..not the only option. There is good and there is evil..but for those who struggle..there is this inbetween area where we are trying to find that light in our own ways. Edited June 22, 2017 by Jeanne 1
Alan Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 2 hours ago, Calm said: It referred to "popes", not the "Pope". It also referred to "princes". Does this mean every king who ever existed was or is part of Lucifer's kingdom? Including men like Mosiah and Benjamin? It didn't refer to "princes" at all. "Popes and priests" was the reference. There has been more than one pope (hence the plural "Popes"), so that would suggest multiple popes, if not all, are part of Lucifer's kingdom; as are priests and protestant ministers. There is no doubt that the temple endowment presentation clearly taught that all of these were part of the devil's kingdom and false religion. A Great & Abominable Church just as Nephi described.
Calm Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 (edited) Getting into explicit Temple language...I should know better. Edited June 22, 2017 by Calm
MiserereNobis Posted June 22, 2017 Posted June 22, 2017 3 hours ago, Alan said: It certainly made reference to the Pope as part of Lucifer's kingdom. Well, that's certainly nothing new historically. You're in good Protestant company 1
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