Robert F. Smith Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 Just now, Jane_Doe said: What the??? I'm sorry, but other inclinations from sin (besides SSA) can indeed preclude you from marriage. Uncontrolled anger issues can indeed preclude marriage and/or end existing marriages. Ask any person who's seen anger fueled abuse. Pride and egotism can keep a person from marriage. Laziness can keep a person from marriage. Mental illness can keep a person from marriage. Yes, and outright fear of the obligations. What is the reason why marriage is so unpopular with millennials? Why do we now have fewer people married than at any time in history? At least among the general American population. 1
clarkgoble Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: What the??? I'm sorry, but other inclinations from sin (besides SSA) can indeed preclude you from marriage. Uncontrolled anger issues can indeed preclude marriage and/or end existing marriages. Ask any person who's seen anger fueled abuse. Pride and egotism can keep a person from marriage. Laziness can keep a person from marriage. Mental illness can keep a person from marriage. Uncontrolled being key. Having an inclination to anger doesn't mean you'll act inappropriately anymore than having SS attraction means you'll act inappropriately on it. Certainly there are people with behaviors that would keep them from marriage. (Or should) But I thought we were talking about chaste gay people and what they should do.
stemelbow Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 1 hour ago, cinepro said: That's an excellent point. When you share something on the internet in the hope that it goes viral, you kind of give up your claim to having been embarrassed by it. I'm pretty sure she is not newnamenoah. And I don't by her parents are. I see this video put up by him, who puts up temple videos and such. I don't know how he got it but the podcast was out before this video...could have been passed onto him from anyone.
Jane_Doe Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 1 minute ago, clarkgoble said: Uncontrolled being key. Having an inclination to anger doesn't mean you'll act inappropriately anymore than having SS attraction means you'll act inappropriately on it. Acting on it at all in inappropriate. And there are MANY other things which acting on at all is inappropriate, not just SSA. 1 minute ago, clarkgoble said: Certainly there are people with behaviors that would keep them from marriage. (Or should) But I thought we were talking about chaste gay people and what they should do. I'm talking about people in general! There are MANY inclinations to sin that should be controlled and not indulged because "God made me this way". MANY people have thorns in the flesh, not just gay people. 1
Danzo Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 4 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: Uncontrolled being key. that is always the key. When any is issue is under control there usually aren't as many problems.
JAHS Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 Just a little something to add to the inappropriateness of this incident. From the Church Handbook: "Photographs, Video Recordings, and Broadcasts in Chapels Taking photographs or making video recordings in chapels is not permitted. Meetings and other events that are held in the chapel may not be broadcast over the Internet or by any other means " 2
clarkgoble Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: Acting on it at all in inappropriate. And there are MANY other things which acting on at all is inappropriate, not just SSA. I'm talking about people in general! There are MANY inclinations to sin that should be controlled and not indulged because "God made me this way". MANY people have thorns in the flesh, not just gay people. Certainly, but to repeat, even if a person can control their behavior in this case there is no legitimate path for expression or marriage. That is a huge difference from most thorns. Put an other way, most other thorns you'd talk about people could at least in theory work to solving. Someone bipolar could stay on medicine, eat healthily and so forth. There is not even a theoretical path here for what these people are supposed to do. Literally there is nothing they can do by your book if you think they shouldn't be marriage. So you're effectively telling them that sorry, there's nothing they can ever do in this life to fulfill the commandments. Edited June 15, 2017 by clarkgoble
Danzo Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 Just now, clarkgoble said: Certainly, but to repeat, even if a person can control their behavior in this case there is no legitimate path for expression or marriage. . . Why do you think that?
stemelbow Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, cinepro said: Another interesting tidbit. Someone who was there says that after Savannah spoke, the conducting authority said that he would be choosing who would bear testimonies for the remainder of the time. I wonder if the concern is that you would start having other ward members get up to express public support for Savannah, or maybe just more pre-planned stuff? Yeah. I think she said she walked right out afterward. There were apparently a number of invited guests and sure the authority was worried this crew of guests were going to get up and chime in. I remember as a boy of about 12. I gave a talk and said the "d" word right at the end (another kid dared me to swear). I ended my talk abruptlyand walked out the building and directly home--my eqivalent of the mic drop. I was worried about going back to church the following week cause surely my sin was too much. But luckily for me I was welcomed back to some extent or another Edited June 15, 2017 by stemelbow 1
pogi Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 3 hours ago, rockpond said: There is no basis for such a conclusion and no reason that the Bishop or SP counselor would have to ask her to sit down. This one good reason: "I know these dreams and wishes are good and right" (her dreams and wishes: find a gay partner to have a family with). Do you know what else this little girl almost certainly knows (and more importantly her parents who supported her in this), that the church teaches that gay marriage is not good and right - and is actually grounds for excommunication. If that is not good reason to shut someone down, I don't know what is quite honestly. This little girl (too innocent to probably realize it) was essentially publicly flipping the bird to the prophets of the church who testify against gay marriage. I don't believe this pure innocent girl really understood the full extent of what she was doing, but there is no doubt that who ever was recording this video knew exactly what was going down. This beautiful child of God is being used as a pawn by higher powers to shame the church. How awful to use such innocence for such evil purposes! 1
clarkgoble Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 1 minute ago, Danzo said: Why do you think that? Marriage is inappropriate and they can't create the type of marriage that's healthy (due to the lack of sexual attraction). There's no evidence that people who are gay (as opposed to having some degree of bisexuality) can by will power or other practice change their attraction. Indeed there's considerable evidence they can't. So what's left? Again this is different from say a heterosexual person who for various reasons doesn't get married due to people not wanting to be in a relationship with them.
juliann Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Jane_Doe said: What the??? I'm sorry, but other inclinations from sin (besides SSA) can indeed preclude you from marriage. Uncontrolled anger issues can indeed preclude marriage and/or end existing marriages. Ask any person who's seen anger fueled abuse. Pride and egotism can keep a person from marriage. Laziness can keep a person from marriage. Mental illness can keep a person from marriage. Wow, pity the poor gay who also has uncontrolled anger issues, mental illness, pride, laziness, and egotism. Is there a special double negative category of sin for them? All of these negative qualities you mention, even mental illness in some cases, can be managed or overcome. You are working very hard not to acknowledge that difference. Edited June 16, 2017 by juliann 1
california boy Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Two choices - change the doctrine or lose members/potential members who cannot accept the doctrine. Really, what other choice is there? And while the momentum isn't moving as fast as some would like to claim, I think we can all see where it is heading. It seems we have many among us who would like to see the Church become a non-denominational all inclusive group dedicated only to praising Christ in every meeting. Or at the very least a place where anyone can come and draw closer to God without feeling like they are being called out as apostates and their children are unworthy of baptism. Something the church could do immediately is to try and make gay members feel like they have a place. That doesn't seem to be such a big hurdle. Maybe the next step would be to let God sort those kinds of things out after the person dies. That certainly is the answer the church gives on all the other issues of who should marry who and when and how many and what is allowed by God and what is not allowed by God. Does this approach ring any bells for anyone??? 1
cacheman Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Garden Girl said: In all of nature... whether it be human, or animal, or even plant (based on my experience at the UCR Agricultural Experiment Station)... it takes male and female together to complete the whole (except for very few obscure species), and to create life for continuation of the species as we can see readily by our physiology. Hi Garden Girl, I agree with your call for respect and compassion for everyone despite differences. However, as a fellow plant lover I feel compelled to correct your statement. There are in fact many plant species that propagate asexually. It is not uncommon or obscure. Dandelions are a common example, but there are many others. Furthermore, many plant species can reproduce both sexually and asexually. There are also animals that reproduce asexually... mainly insects, amphibians, and reptiles. Of course in humans, there is much known about various combinations of sex chromosomes that fall outside of the norm. For me, it's difficult to justify a 'black and white' perspective on sex and gender based on what we know through science and observations in the natural world. cacheman 1
juliann Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, stemelbow said: Edited June 16, 2017 by juliann
california boy Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 1 hour ago, juliann said: Explain the doctrine more thoroughly and convincingly without making it about gays. My concern is with anything that might remove woman from creation in any situation. It is a philosophical concern but one I don't see discussed. What is the natural consequence of eliminating the woman half of an eternal marriage? What does it say about women if men think another man can be substituted for a woman. Talking about eternity here. Who is emulating the woman in a gay marriage? I certainly do not consider myself a woman in any sense at all. And neither does my partner.
juliann Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 1 minute ago, california boy said: Who is emulating the woman in a gay marriage? I certainly do not consider myself a woman in any sense at all. And neither does my partner. Speaking of two men, there is no woman. What are you talking about?
Danzo Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: Marriage is inappropriate . . . I don't know that has been established with certainty for all cases. I have a feeling that when all is said and done there will be many people who have had successful marriages with people they are not sexually attracted to. I have always thought "I am just not attracted to her/him" a rather lame reason to end a marriage. Just my personal opinion. Being attracted isn't even a prerequisite to marriage in the first place. My wife's family come from a place where arranged marriages are common (her parents just celebrated 50 years of an arranged marriage). It seems to work as least as often as marriages by mutual choice do. Edited June 15, 2017 by Danzo 3
california boy Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said: I did NOT say the bolded part. Please do not put words in my mouth. No, a person who is gay should not automatically say "I'll marry an opposite sex person anyways". No! I'm not saying that by any stretch of the imagination! So exactly when is this all going to work out for a gay person. Are they going to marry the opposite sex in the next life? Do we really know of any eternal plan revealed from God that is not just guess work for someone who is gay? Do you have answers here that we are all unaware of?
Jane_Doe Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 6 minutes ago, clarkgoble said: Certainly, but to repeat, even if a person can control their behavior in this case there is no legitimate path for expression or marriage. That is a huge difference from most thorns. Put an other way, most other thorns you'd talk about people could at least in theory work to solving. Someone bipolar could stay on medicine, eat healthily and so forth. There is not even a theoretical path here for what these people are supposed to do. Literally there is nothing they can do by your book if you think they shouldn't be marriage. So you're effectively telling them that sorry, there's nothing they can ever do in this life to fulfill the commandments. So you're blaming a lack of scientific knowledge for solution....? I don't think I'm understanding you correctly.
california boy Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 7 minutes ago, juliann said: Speaking of two men, there is no woman. What are you talking about? I was trying to ge clarification from you for this like that you wrote. Maybe you can help me understand what you are talking about Quote What does it say about women if men think another man can be substituted for a woman.
Anijen Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Danzo said: He would get up on the stand and explain that the plan was for god to eat his children. I really want to do say this. yeah, i'm a bit weird. LOL, edited for clarification. I really don't want to eat children Edited June 15, 2017 by Anijen
Tacenda Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 34 minutes ago, JAHS said: Just a little something to add to the inappropriateness of this incident. From the Church Handbook: "Photographs, Video Recordings, and Broadcasts in Chapels Taking photographs or making video recordings in chapels is not permitted. Meetings and other events that are held in the chapel may not be broadcast over the Internet or by any other means " A local news channel was going to air the youtube but changed their minds, maybe it was because of the written rule on not videotaping in chapels.
Tacenda Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 21 minutes ago, cacheman said: Hi Garden Girl, I agree with your call for respect and compassion for everyone despite differences. However, as a fellow plant lover I feel compelled to correct your statement. There are in fact many plant species that propagate asexually. It is not uncommon or obscure. Dandelions are a common example, but there are many others. Furthermore, many plant species can reproduce both sexually and asexually. There are also animals that reproduce asexually... mainly insects, amphibians, and reptiles. Of course in humans, there is much known about various combinations of sex chromosomes that fall outside of the norm. For me, it's difficult to justify a 'black and white' perspective on sex and gender based on what we know through science and observations in the natural world. cacheman True, gays that marry can raise up children also.
clarkgoble Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: So you're blaming a lack of scientific knowledge for solution....? I don't think I'm understanding you correctly. I don't think I was blaming anyone or anything for the lack of a solution. I don't even know if there is a solution. I certainly hope there is some solution that makes everyone happy but I'm not convinced there is. I certainly can't think of a solution. If science found some means to let people change all aspects of sex then that'd be a solution I'd guess. But there's no sign that's really practically possible nor what the side effects would be if such technology were available. Our knowledge of the brain is extremely limited. Edited June 15, 2017 by clarkgoble
Recommended Posts