Gay Beehive Delivers Prepared Speech in F&T Meeting - Ends as Expected

[MorningStar]

5 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I realize that this isn't a norm for testimony meetings..but what speaks out is the shutting down of a child..with a testimony!

That was the whole purpose.  It's a publicity stunt.  They knew the bishop would have to ask her to sit down.  The goal was to shame the church on YouTube. 

[Jeanne]

Just now, Rain said:

No, what speaks out to YOU is that.  What speaks out to me is that the main purpose was USING a child and that makes me angry if it is an adult doing that. 

Then let the parents be accountable...she was the one at the pulpit...and an automatic judgement took place. 

[MorningStar]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Shutting down a child who is trying to express herself on open mic day, defying her expression and for the sake of keeping the meeting to what's appropriate is idiotic and cold.  If you have an issue let her give her piece and address with the family afterward, at the very least.  

So it's supposed to be a free for all?  Don't hurt anyone's feelings when they get up and say something they know isn't OK.  Testimony meeting isn't about us.  It's about Christ.  

[JulieM]

5 minutes ago, Rain said:

No, what speaks out to YOU is that.  What speaks out to me is that the main purpose was USING a child and that makes me angry if it is an adult doing that. 

Do we know this was written and started with an adult encouraging her to do this?

Maybe it was something she wanted to do, wrote herself, and then shared it beforehand with whoever decided to tape it.

Did she know it was being taped, does anyone know?

Also, no one would have known ahead of time that she wouldn't be allowed to finish or how it would be handled...

Edited June 15, 2017 by JulieM

[stemelbow]

Just now, MorningStar said:

So it's supposed to be a free for all?  Don't hurt anyone's feelings when they get up and say something they know isn't OK.  Testimony meeting isn't about us.  It's about Christ.  

She was giving her perspective and experience with Christ for her ward.  You can cynically call foul and say that's not what it was,  but it was just that as far as I can see.  She was being courageous for Christ by standing up for her truth.  Call foul if you like.  I won't. I love her move and know things will change. 

[JLHPROF]

17 minutes ago, Duncan said:

The fella that put it up said on youtube about her Bishop "He's a good man and I personally don't believe he would've shut off her mic" so, it seems like leadership roulette then, sharing something with the wrong individual more than a case of anything else. 

The fella that put this up on Youtube is one of the biggest anti's on the internet. His opinion of  the Bishop holds no weight one way or another.

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, Rain said:

How would you even know this?  Seriously?  You saw a total of 4 minutes of what happened.  

Four minutes is all it takes to shame...she wasn't up there 2 minutes before she was shut down..Doesn't that speak to you at all?  I don't know what will become of her or what her future brings..I wish her the very best as all of you.  But this day..will be remembered and not forgotten for a lesbian child of God.  Four minutes speaks volumes.

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

So it's supposed to be a free for all?  Don't hurt anyone's feelings when they get up and say something they know isn't OK.  Testimony meeting isn't about us.  It's about Christ.

Agreed.

This was politicizing designed to tug at heartstrings. It appears to have achieved its goal.

[Jane_Doe]

Here's my perspective on the "God made me this way" arguments-- 

I have a sister who was born with an absolutely nasty temper.  Growing up she would yell and hit and scream and do all sorts of horrible things.  She could say "God made this way, it's how I feel, so I'm going to keep hitting and that's something to celebrate", but I don't think anyone would agree with that statement.  Rather, we (including herself) have tried to teach her control of her emotions and the higher route.  It's been a life long battle, and nearing the age of 30 she still battles her temper regularly- this inclination for sin is part of who she is.  But she should keep trying to overcome this natural-man part of herself, and through doing so she's become a much better person.   Her story of conquering this (or at least trying) is something to be celebrated.

Likewise I could have written an identical paragraph about me and my own inclination to sin (I can be SO prideful).  I could have written it about my friend's tendency towards laziness.  I could have written it about another friend's battle with heterosexual lust and cheating.  And it is the same for anyone with homosexual inclination.  These sinful inclinations are part of us, often lifelong parts of us.  It is our fighting these inclinations and becoming better people (through and focused on Christ) that should be celebrate, not caving in to sin because "it's part of me".  

[Rain]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

I have seen people write down testimonies.  When I was in the bishopric, I would often make notes of the things I wanted to convey on the Sundays when I knew I would be bearing my testimony.  My notes were always heartfelt and done in the spirit of prayer.  Preparing ahead of time certainly doesn't mean that it isn't a true testimony.

I imagine that this was an important truth for this girl to share with her ward family.  She likely gave it much thought and prayer.  I bet she was scared and nervous -- clearly she had reason to be.  Just because a family member recorded such an important even doesn't mean that it was a "set up" or that someone put the child in that position.  I find that to be a baseless conclusion.

I am ok with writing it down if it needs to be.  I was ok with it with the one or two times I saw before.  It was the addition of the video and then posting it on the internet that gives the impression it is something more.  

I didn't come to the "conclusion" that someone put a child up to this.  That is why I said "unless". I recognize that there could be a whole lot of story behind this other than what I can think of.  Kind of like there could be a whole lot more story to this than she was being "shut down" and that her leadership is unloving.  

 

[california boy]

I have recently read a couple of statements by other churches concerning this issue.  It is interesting how other faiths are handling gays in their congregations.  As far as I know, the Mormon church is the only Christian church that excommunicates someone who is gay because they choose to marry.  And I am pretty sure no other Christian church forbids the baptism of children of gay couples.    Here are the recent statements by a few other churches on this issue.

As Church Shifts, a Cardinal Welcomes Gays; They Embrace a ‘Miracle’

From the article

 

Quote

 

NEWARK — The word “pilgrimage” usually evokes visions of far-off, exotic places, but for some 100 gay and lesbian Catholics and their families, a pilgrimage to the Cathedral Basilica of the Sacred Heart here on a recent Sunday was more like a homecoming.

The doors to the cathedral were opened to them, and they were welcomed personally by the leader of the Archdiocese of Newark, Cardinal Joseph W. Tobin. They were seated on folding chairs at the cathedral’s center, in front of the altar in the towering sanctuary, under the blue-tinted glow of stained glass.

“I am Joseph, your brother,” Cardinal Tobin told the group, which included lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender Catholics from around New York and the five dioceses in New Jersey. “I am your brother, as a disciple of Jesus. I am your brother, as a sinner who finds mercy with the Lord.”

 

I realize that the Catholic Church is not changing its current doctrine towards gays. It is why I wanted to share this event.   At least this Cardinal made a very public act of letting them know they were welcome.  I know that some will say the Mormon Church welcomes all gays.  But does anyone see the difference in actually holding out a welcoming hand, specifically inviting them and publicly telling them they are wanted in the Catholic Church.  Certainly this beehive didn't get that kind of message when the plug was pulled on her own heart felt feelings about God and the church.  Chances are, she, like most gay members will walk away from any connection with the church in order for her to find the happiness she seeks.

 

And also from a couple of days ago,  

Gay couples will be allowed to marry in Anglican church for first time - but only in Scotland

 

Quote

 

In approving the proposal, church members voted to remove the doctrinal clause which stated that marriage is a "union of one man and one woman".

It was replaced with a "conscience clause" which states: "In the light of the fact that there are differing understandings of the nature of marriage in this church, no cleric of this church shall be obliged to conduct any marriage against their conscience."

A two-thirds majority was required in each house of Bishops, Clergy and Laity for the measure to be accepted.

The proposal was passed with 80% support from the Bishops and Laity, while 67% of the Clergy backed the move.

 

Yeah, that's not going to happen in the Mormon Church, but it appears that the Anglican Church would rather gay couples feel a part of the church and come to Christ and inviting them to participate than build walls around them.  And yes, I consider calling gay couples apostates and not allowing their children to be baptized a pretty high wall separating gays from the church.

I think each church has to wrestle with this issue.  Some believe in a welcoming approach where gays feel a part of the body of Christ and welcome to be counted among their numbers.  Perhaps these other churches are willing to let God sort things out in the next life.  Maybe the most important issue is not whether they are married, but whether they seek Christ.   

Perhaps the discussion should be about what things the church could do to make gay couples welcome and a young beehive to feel loved and accepted while not changing its policy on gay marriage.

[juliann]

18 minutes ago, rockpond said:

 The stake presidency member was wrong to ask her to sit down.

 

I have heard such outrageous stuff amongst the truly awe inspiring stuff in F&T meeting. When it is bad enough that people try to keep investigators away from it as their first exposure, it should probably be an all or nothing approach. Either ask all of the offenders to sit down or none of them. 

[rockpond]

16 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

What saddens me is that this ward missed out on a loving opportunity.  Now..this girl will either grow up and grow with her own understanding with God and the church..or she will/can be shamed and go down that slippery path that leaves her outside..afraid..and hating herself.  For whatever reason she wrote all of this..and is taped..the church missed out and because of it..some ward teens are going to remember and some may walk away.

That's an important point, Jeanne.  She was obviously sharing something that was deeply important and spiritual to her.  The message she got was:  We don't want to hear it!  And that same message was given to any other LGBT persons in the congregation.  The message sent was:  "We don't want to hear that God loves you as you are and that you have hopes and dreams.  Keep those things to yourself."

[rockpond]

16 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

That was the whole purpose.  It's a publicity stunt.  They knew the bishop would have to ask her to sit down.  The goal was to shame the church on YouTube. 

There is no basis for such a conclusion and no reason that the Bishop or SP counselor would have to ask her to sit down.

[california boy]

38 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

So the Holy Ghost has witnessed to her that God approves of her desire to live a lesbian lifestyle?

I actually feel the same witness.  I am more at peace with God than I ever have been.  I feel like I have made the decision that God wanted me to make.  Is that really so hard to believe?  Have you spent months fasting and praying about this issue to find out the will of God?  Have you asked him with real intent?  

[MorningStar]

Let's say a 12-year-old boy got up with a written statement that God loves him, doesn't make mistakes, and that he didn't make a mistake when he made him attracted to multiple women, hoping that he will grow up to be married to multiple women.  Considering the church's stance on polygamy, I'm sure that would be frowned upon and the boy would be asked to sit down.  Or would the reaction be, "Poor little boy!  Let him speak his truth!"

Let's not forget there are lots of children present during F&T meeting.  I really don't want my 8-year-old asking me, "What's a lesbian?"  I will decide when she knows such things.  

I'm sure the girl knew she would be asked to sit down, but that she can still pat herself on the back for being an activist during a meeting that is supposed to uplift others, but instead made everyone feel awkward and sad.  

 

Edited June 15, 2017 by MorningStar

[rockpond]

16 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

So it's supposed to be a free for all?  Don't hurt anyone's feelings when they get up and say something they know isn't OK.  Testimony meeting isn't about us.  It's about Christ.  

If that testimony was given without reference to her being gay, nobody would have considered asking her to stop.  Not a chance.  The problem was that she didn't keep quiet about being gay.

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

 

Another interesting chapter in Church history (or culture?) for the internet age:

 

 

 

 

Is the church's correlated narrative so weak that leaders must silence a 12-year-old-girl for talking about how she really feels inside?  I think this young girl's comments actually align with what the Savior taught about love and tolerance.  Her message and overall sincerity, IMO, were better than 90% of the testimonies I hear.    

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

That's an important point, Jeanne.  She was obviously sharing something that was deeply important and spiritual to her.  The message she got was:  We don't want to hear it!  And that same message was given to any other LGBT persons in the congregation.  The message sent was:  "We don't want to hear that God loves you as you are and that you have hopes and dreams.  Keep those things to yourself."

I say even if she got some help from her parents, or whatever some of these posters are claiming by calling foul, you hit the nail on the head.  It doesn't matter.  What matters is love and support.  To shut people down is akin to kicking them out.  It essentially means such a person can't share him/herself in the Church.  Please...that view sucks.  Church sucks if that's what it is. 

[juliann]

5 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Here's my perspective on the "God made me this way" arguments-- 

I have a sister who was born with an absolutely nasty temper.  Growing up she would yell and hit and scream and do all sorts of horrible things.  She could say "God made this way, it's how I feel, so I'm going to keep hitting and that's something to celebrate", but I don't think anyone would agree with that statement.  Rather, we (including herself) have tried to teach her control of her emotions and the higher route.  It's been a life long battle, and nearing the age of 30 she still battles her temper regularly- this inclination for sin is part of who she is.  But she should keep trying to overcome this natural-man part of herself, and through doing so she's become a much better person.   Her story of conquering this (or at least trying) is something to be celebrated.

Likewise I could have written an identical paragraph about me and my own inclination to sin (I can be SO prideful).  I could have written it about my friend's tendency towards laziness.  I could have written it about another friend's battle with heterosexual lust and cheating.  And it is the same for anyone with homosexual inclination.  These sinful inclinations are part of us, often lifelong parts of us.  It is our fighting these inclinations and becoming better people (through and focused on Christ) that should be celebrate, not caving in to sin because "it's part of me".  

I think we need to stop talking about people as if they are a sin. SSA is not equivalent to a bad temper and it shouldn't be trivialized as something that can be overcome like a bad hair day, or needs to be. It just is.

I don't know how this is going to turn out. The church is in a very difficult position that I wish hadn't happened.  I don't like the identity politics that has grown up around this and other things but that is no excuse to pile on and make anyone feel that God does not love and approve of them.

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

But my understanding is that the presiding authority has a responsibility to prevent false doctrine being taught at the pulpit.

Because church leaders since the 1830's have never spread false doctrine from the pulpit, right?  

Edited June 15, 2017 by Ouagadougou

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, rockpond said:

That's an important point, Jeanne.  She was obviously sharing something that was deeply important and spiritual to her.  The message she got was:  We don't want to hear it!  And that same message was given to any other LGBT persons in the congregation.  The message sent was:  "We don't want to hear that God loves you as you are and that you have hopes and dreams.  Keep those things to yourself."

yeah..you know, in just a few minutes she learned that she is not included in the plan of salvation. 

[MorningStar]

4 minutes ago, rockpond said:

If that testimony was given without reference to her being gay, nobody would have considered asking her to stop.  Not a chance.  The problem was that she didn't keep quiet about being gay.

She didn't just express that she's gay, but that she hopes to grow up and marry a woman and have children with that woman, which she knows goes against church teachings.  That is not the purpose of testimony meeting. 

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

Let's say a 12-year-old boy got up with a written statement that God loves him, doesn't make mistakes, and that he didn't make a mistake when he made him attracted to multiple women, hoping that he will grow up to be married to multiple women.  Considering the church's stance on polygamy, I'm sure that would be frowned upon and the boy would be asked to sit down.  Or would the reaction be, "Poor little boy!  Let him speak his truth!"

Let's not forget there are lots of children present during F&T meeting.  I really don't want my 8-year-old asking me, "What's a lesbian?"  I will decide when she knows such things.  

I'm sure the girl knew she would be asked to sit down, but that she can still pat herself on the back for being an activist during a meeting that is supposed to uplift others, but instead made everyone feel awkward and sad.  

 

I sincerely doubt that a 12 year old girl anticipated being asked to sit down.  How often does that ever happen?  I only remember once in 45 years of sacrament meetings.  Why would she have expected the mic to be turned off in the middle of her testimony?  I also doubt that she considered herself an activist.  She was sharing her beliefs and the truth of her testimony.

[california boy]

36 minutes ago, Gillebre said:

As someone who themselves is in the position of being attracted to their own gender, I know how this feels. I think it's important to have clear expectations and a sound understanding of what these feelings mean in relation to basic Gospel teachings and guidance from living Prophets. Entering into a same-sex marriage is an act of apostasy, a complete rejection of standards of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Those who decide to marry another of their own gender are always free to attend services and participate as much as they can, but they do not have the privilege of being members of the Church and receiving the blessings of that membership.

The truth is that most often this feels like an impossible decision to make. How do you choose between feelings that come to you as natural and fundamental as companionship, love, and the core teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ and the Gospel of Jesus Christ? It's a choice that everyone must make in one form or another. It's a choice I must make everyday, and the answer, in my experience so far, is this: Can I put everything else aside and simply hold onto every experience I've had that has taught me to trust my Savior? These are terrible burdens to bear, and there are other kinds of problems that other people must face having nothing to do with attractions. I can choose to lay down what I want, to put it aside, for the sake of my trust in Jesus Christ. He's my mentor and closest Friend, and I've learned to trust my spiritual instincts and intuition. This young woman will make the choice for her own life, and those who love her will have to make it also. No one should be treated or valued less because of how they feel or the way they choose to pursue their own happiness, but the Lord's standards are more clear than they've ever been: don't expect to stay a member of His Church, and receive the blessings thereof, if you choose to completely leave it's teachings behind by marrying someone of your own gender. 

We need an increase of compassion as the Savior had on every sinner He ministered to. We need peace in our hearts to live without a spirit of condemnation in these days where diversity of how one chooses to live is perhaps greater than ever before.

Great post.  I would just say that a gay person choosing to marry someone is not a complete rejection of standards of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  It certainly is a rejection of the current policy the church has against gays however.  I certainly do not feel like I have rejected everything taught to me by the church.  Sometimes you have to trust the Spirit more than church leaders.  That is all she is saying.  And that is all I am saying.  But I don't discount at all any choice you make.  These things are between the person and God IMO.  I have learned the hard way that church leaders do not always speak for God on this issue.