Gay Beehive Delivers Prepared Speech in F&T Meeting - Ends as Expected

[Teancum]

15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Of course, Moses and Jesus faced the same quandary:  How can we know anything for certain?  The problem is epistemological.  Not sure that LSD is the answer, though.  

 

Hehehheh.   LSD might help enlighten us all!!   Just kidding.....

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I stopped reading this thread before I got very far into it -- too disgusted to continue. 

But that was a question that was always present in my mind that it seemed no one bothered to deal with: How can s 12-year-old be aware of her own sexuality enough to even know what her orientation is?

I suspect some brainwashing here, if not by family members, then by society. 

Perhaps it has been awhile since you were 12, my experience was that boys were quite aware of girls and girls of boys so any with SSA instead of or in addition to OSA, I would not be surprised if they were aware of those feelings by then.  Possibly not well defined and not from personal experience, but from thinking about as well as interacting in casual social settings with guys.

It is often suggested that Mary was around 12 when she became the mother of Christ, young women have been considered marriageable material as soon as they start their cycle.  In fact, it is often referred to as 'becoming a woman'.  And plenty of girls have that happen before or at age 12.

If there is a reason to believe that these young ladies were getting married, pregnant and even were mothers in all these past societies before they had any sexual identity, what a condemnation of all human history that is.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Calm

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

 

How was this young girl's testimony also not a "wonderful expression of her faith?" Because of the simple fact that her personal beliefs and/or lifestyle did not align with what the church wanted, she was forced to sit down, despite the fact that, IMO, she was sincere and focused on Christ.  

 

Faith, in the gospel sense, only has power when it is based on the true principles of the gospel.  She was not focused on Christ in her testimony.  She was focused on sharing her views, which are contrary to the commandments of God and the teachings of the church.  She was focused on what she wanted rather than on being a disciple of Christ.

[Teancum]

15 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

True, but there are no unambiguous details in church publications on how to recognize or detect the Holy Ghost.

For Carolyn LeDuc holy ghost revelation is a "drastically better" life. 

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2010/02/waiting-for-my-testimony?lang=eng

Or perhaps she didn't recognize it?  

They tell me all religions are of God, the only difference is that the LDS church has priesthood ordinances.  

But all religions cannot be of God. Not unless God is a god of confusion.  I suggest this book for you:

https://www.amazon.com/God-Not-One-Eight-Religions/dp/0061571288

 

As for the last comment on priesthood ordinances how do you know this for sure?  Catholics claim a priesthood authority.  Protestants claims a priesthood of all believers.  Both have as strong a basis as LDS claims.

 

 

[rockpond]

As a counter point to the ward portrayed in the OP, here's a two-part guest post on Jana Riess' Flunking Sainthood that discusses gay married LDS couple Nick Einbender & Spencer Mickelson and their move from a loving/accepting ward in Hawaii to what appears to be another loving/accepting ward in the DC area.

Part 1:  http://religionnews.com/2017/06/13/married-gay-mormons-try-to-stay-lds-part-1/

Part 2:  http://religionnews.com/2017/06/14/married-gay-and-mormon-part-2/

p.s. I'm no longer closely following this thread so if you have specific questions you want me to reply to, please PM.

[USU78]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

Perhaps it has been awhile since you were 12, my experience was that boys were quite aware of girls and girls of boys so any with SSA instead of or in addition to OSA, I would not be surprised if they were aware of those feelings by then.  Possibly not well defined and not from personal experience, but from thinking about as well as interacting in casual social settings with guys.

Sexuality is difficult and confusing during the tweener years. Experimentation happens. Playing doctor happens. Mutual same sex fondling happens. At the same time, religious and social and quite rational taboos greatly limit intersexual play for most.

Adults can and do treat such things far too seriously, and can and do treat as now immutable what is ephemeral. Especially when the ephemera are so politicized and it is so easy to fall into the trap of "mainstreaming" the merely inquisitive into a lifetime commitment to a sad, angry and lost existence.

My view: it is abuse motivated by a perversion of natural compassion. But it is abuse.

Edited June 16, 2017 by USU78

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, rockpond said:

gay married LDS couple Nick Einbender & Spencer Mickelson

Oxymoron

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Sexuality is difficult and confusing during the tweener years. Experimentation happens. Playing doctor happens. Mutual same sex fondling happens. At the same time, religious and social and quite rational taboos greatly limit intersexual play for most.

Adults can and do treat such things far too seriously, and can and do treat as now immutable what is ephemeral. Especially when the ephemera are so politicized and it is so easy to fall into the trap of "mainstreaming" the merely inquisitive into a lifetime commitment to a sad, angry and lost existence.

My view: it is abuse motivated by a perversion of natural compassion. But it is abuse.

So in your view, most (everyone?) at that age is more or less bisexual?

[USU78]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

So in your view, most (everyone?) at that age is more or less bisexual?

Not at all. There's no evidence to support such a proposition. How did you get that from what I posted?

[Darren10]

4 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

1) Imagine your friends and family telling you "your behavior is a serious sin", I honestly don't think that is healthy. 

2) Easy to say

3) Yes, but that is assuming the plan of salvation is real. You have more to lose if it is not real by no enjoying your life now. 

4) again, "If there is an afterlife what is the worst that can happen to them? Just the telestial kindgom which is better than life on earth today. If there is no afterlife what is the worst that can happen to them? Not enjoying this life." 

What does it matter to debate you if you don't think the plan of salvation is real? It's like your trying to debate me on the merits of traffic lights if you don't believe traffic is real. 

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

Perhaps it has been awhile since you were 12, my experience was that boys were quite aware of girls and girls of boys so any with SSA instead of or in addition to OSA, I would not be surprised if they were aware of those feelings by then.  Possibly not well defined and not from personal experience, but from thinking about as well as interacting in casual social settings with guys.

It is often suggested that Mary was around 12 when she became the mother of Christ, young women have been considered marriageable material as soon as they start their cycle.  In fact, it is often referred to as 'becoming a woman'.  And plenty of girls have that happen before or at age 12.

If there is a reason to believe that these young ladies were getting married, pregnant and even were mothers in all these past societies before they had any sexual identity, what a condemnation of all human history that is.

I'm not so old as to have lost all common sense. 

Having an awakening awareness of one's own sexuality is one thing. Having a fully developed understanding of it is quite another. 

I do know that pubescent boys (perhaps girls too) occasionally experiment sexually with one another in a way that has nothing to do with sexual orientation but is merely experimentation. As they grow older, the idea of same-gender sexual engagement becomes repugnant to them. 

[Scott Lloyd]

17 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Sexuality is difficult and confusing during the tweener years. Experimentation happens. Playing doctor happens. Mutual same sex fondling happens. At the same time, religious and social and quite rational taboos greatly limit intersexual play for most.

Adults can and do treat such things far too seriously, and can and do treat as now immutable what is ephemeral. Especially when the ephemera are so politicized and it is so easy to fall into the trap of "mainstreaming" the merely inquisitive into a lifetime commitment to a sad, angry and lost existence.

My view: it is abuse motivated by a perversion of natural compassion. But it is abuse.

You have expressed so well what I tried to in a subsequent post  that I made before I had seen yours. 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Not at all. There's no evidence to support such a proposition. How did you get that from what I posted?

You said sexuality was confusing.  Perhaps you have shifted from talking about sexual identity.

No big deal, just trying to understand nuances.

 

[Darren10]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

Doesn't seem like a strong motivation to me.  You can count me as a parent that couldn't care less if their kids video went viral or that they got 1000 likes or 10,000 likes. I personally think these parents think more of their daughter than that.  The fact that they tried to talk her out of doing this for 4 months says they are a different kind of parent than one you are suggesting.

Read my modified post. 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Not at all. There's no evidence to support such a proposition. How did you get that from what I posted?

I agree that Calm misconstrued what USU78 said (and what I more or less sustained in a subsequent post, though I don't think she had seen my post yet).

[USU78]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

You said sexuality was confusing.  Perhaps you have shifted from talking about sexual identity.

No big deal, just trying to understand nuances.

 

I'm talking about tweeners.

[clarkgoble]

7 hours ago, california boy said:

But actually we don't know who shot the video or why.  This young girl tells us that there were some invited guests there who wanted to hear her message.  Perhaps they were not members.  Perhaps they didn't know all of the Mormon rules against videos in the chapel.  Perhaps they just wanted to record what they though was going to be a special event.

I thought they had said the parents shot the video. If I'm wrong on that I'll retract some of what I said. Although honestly most people's cynicism meter goes up because of the shooting of the video and bringing of friends to hear (I didn't know that was true - I thought it was just a lot of people there from outside the ward) Whether intentional or not it makes it appear much more likely to be a kind of "gotcha" moment.

Quote

We also don't know how this video got posted.  What we do know is that the family did not post it.  

My understanding is that a well known anti-Mormon posted it but that we don't know how they got it.

Quote

For some reason it seems that so many are quick to judge a family who is struggling with this issue without actually knowing any facts at all.  So sad.  But I really think the church leaders set the tone for these kinds of quick judgements to occur.

But of course we do know a lot of facts and they went on that gay podcast to talk about the situation. 

Quote

If there is any embarrassment to the church over this incident, it was brought on entirely by the church itself.  This could have also been a viral video showing how much love and concern church members could show to a 12 year old girl who is trying to come to grips with her future in the Mormon church.

To say it was brought on entirely by the church seems wrong. I'd be the first to admit the stake president didn't handle it ideally although I'd assume he was ill prepared to have to deal with something like that. So if we're going to be understanding of the young woman we probably should be equally understanding of the stake president who was put in a pretty difficult situation. But to lay it all on the stake president rather than the parents who didn't see anything wrong with the statements made seems wrong. The talk was written out before hand and the parents read that. The portions that clearly were against church doctrine were rather obvious and the parents should have known that.

Even if the stake president had acted perfectly they must have known that those doctrinal claims were going to raise conflict in the ward.

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by clarkgoble

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I agree that Calm misconstrued what USU78 said (and what I more or less sustained in a subsequent post, though I don't think she had seen my post yet).

I think both you and USU78 are attributing confusion surrounding sexual identity too broadly. You both seem to suggest that it is common for children/young teens to experiment with each other or even "fondle". That doesn't match my experience in the slightest.

From the time I was in kindergarten I was chasing the girls and trying to kiss them. Never the boys. Of course I didn't understand it as sexual identity but the attraction only went towards girls. Zero confusion or experimentation. All of that to say that it seems very reasonable for a 12 year old girl to innately understand her attraction.

I previously asked but didn't see an answer from you. At what age did you realize you were attracted to girls instead of boys? Teens? College?

I ask because I can't understand why you think it is so strange that a 12 year old would understand attraction.

[clarkgoble]

9 hours ago, cinepro said:

In her podcast interview, Savannah says the Bishop is the father of her best friend, but he didn't know about her tendencies towards same-sex attraction.

Ah. I didn't know that. Still, if only because of the connection with the family he might have handled things somewhat differently. I've not listened to the podcast so I'm just going by what I've heard reported.

A few people have said the parents tried to talk her out of doing it. Since you listened to the podcast could you confirm if that was the case?

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Ah. I didn't know that. Still, if only because of the connection with the family he might have handled things somewhat differently. I've not listened to the podcast so I'm just going by what I've heard reported.

A few people have said the parents tried to talk her out of doing it. Since you listened to the podcast could you confirm if that was the case?

No. As stated in the original video the bishop wasn't there. The member of the SP stopped her and then assigned a bishopric counselor to say something afterwards.

Edited June 16, 2017 by HappyJackWagon

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

How was this young girl's testimony also not a "wonderful expression of her faith?" Because of the simple fact that her personal beliefs and/or lifestyle did not align with what the church wanted, she was forced to sit down, despite the fact that, IMO, she was sincere and focused on Christ.  

So hypothetically if a 12 year old girl stood up and bore testimony of polygamy with the implication everyone should join the Allred group you'd also be fine with that?

[HappyJackWagon]

7 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

So hypothetically if a 12 year old girl stood up and bore testimony of polygamy with the implication everyone should join the Allred group you'd also be fine with that?

That's not what this girl did. She didn't tell everyone to be gay. She didn't tell them that being gay was better than being straight. She wasn't recruiting. Therefore, your question is a strawman.

[clarkgoble]

10 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

From the time I was in kindergarten I was chasing the girls and trying to kiss them. Never the boys. Of course I didn't understand it as sexual identity but the attraction only went towards girls. Zero confusion or experimentation. All of that to say that it seems very reasonable for a 12 year old girl to innately understand her attraction.

I previously asked but didn't see an answer from you. At what age did you realize you were attracted to girls instead of boys? Teens? College?

I ask because I can't understand why you think it is so strange that a 12 year old would understand attraction.

I think the question is the old environment vs. biology question. A lot of people think that say when people younger than 10 talk about attraction it's largely driven by the social norms in their environment. So girls talk about how dreamy the latest boy band is less because of biological drive than because of mimicking what they see socially. This is also partially why some see the downward push of sexuality to teens and the like as so destructive.

That said, the lower age for puberty especially for girls is fairly well known. 12 is not at all an uncommon time to have the biology develop. Likewise puberty isn't a one time thing but develops over time and at different rates for different people. Some of that is admittedly due to non genetic factors that affect gene expression. So, for instance, it's commonly thought that the age for puberty that's been lowering in the west the past few decades is tied to better nutrition along with obesity. Some think chemicals in the environment might be having an effect as well.

Scientists typically break sexuality into three components. One is identity (what you perceive yourself as). An other is attraction or what genders you're attracted to and by how much. The third is performance or how you tend to act. People tend to assume these are all the same but it's not uncommon for one to manifest differently from biological averages. So you might have someone who identifies as male, is attracted to females, but likes to act in stereotypical female ways. The big question is how much of this is set by genes, how much is a manifestation of the gene expression heavily affected by environment, and how much is open to habitual/social change. There's no consensus there although I think the evidence is fairly strong that for at least some people its a combination of genes and environmentally triggered gene expression.

Given all that there's a fair bit of evidence that gene expression leading to those categories starts well before puberty. That is people start to recognize both their identity independent of social norms and their attractions prior to puberty hitting. But of course what makes this all so messy is that not everyone is the same.

Anyway in this case given that 12 is a not uncommon time for these to manifest within puberty I'd assume it's reasonable that in this case the girl knew. Although it's certainly possible she's responding more to social pressure. But I'd think we should only conclude that if we had a fair bit of evidence for it.

[stemelbow]

35 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm not so old as to have lost all common sense. 

Having an awakening awareness of one's own sexuality is one thing. Having a fully developed understanding of it is quite another. 

 

Do you really think anyone thinks this girls has a fully developed understanding of her sexuality?  Do you think she thinks that?  do you think her parents think that? 

[Thinking]

38 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Not at all. There's no evidence to support such a proposition. How did you get that from what I posted?

Perhaps it was this.

49 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Sexuality is difficult and confusing during the tweener years. Experimentation happens. Playing doctor happens. Mutual same sex fondling happens.