Leaks about Africa

[Okrahomer]

My brother and sister-in-law returned recently from a humanitarian mission to Madagascar.  To your list, you can add:

1.  Wheelchair distribution

2.  Infant vaccinations

3.  Drought, famine and natural disaster relief

[MormonVideoGame]

38 minutes ago, juliann said:

 You tell me how many missionaries are there.  

You brought up  "humanitarian mission in Fiji". I am not sure what humanitarian missions in Fiji have anything to do with poor LDS wards and assistance from the Bishop in Latin America. 

38 minutes ago, juliann said:

You are the one making the claims.

I am not making stuff up! It is completly true! If you don't believe me just ask the Bishops from poor latin America wards. 

It is something that is well known in Latin America.  

Edited June 14, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[MormonVideoGame]

9 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

My brother and sister-in-law returned recently from a humanitarian mission to Madagascar.  To your list, you can add:

1.  Wheelchair distribution

2.  Infant vaccinations

3.  Drought, famine and natural disaster relief

Good, but has nothing to do with the point I am making. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Judd]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I honestly don't understand your concern.  I said the phrase about paying tithing and helping out of poverty sounds problematic.  I said why.  SOme here have tried to twist what I said into something I did not say.  On the other point, yes, I do think saying local cultures should be superseded is problematic.  I see the things they want to add, but that does not necessarily supersede.  The wording on the top of those two slides is problematic in my mind, so much so I said it feels offensive.   

There's not much to interpret here.  I said what I said.  SOme have, in my estimation, misread me and have, with that, added to my words that which I did not say.  Thanks for the reply

To clarify my point, they said x about gospel culture superseding local culture, then clarified that with q, r and s. You speculated what x meant (when q, r and s give a healthy sample of what x meant) but felt it could be as broad as encompassing a, b and c -- things they themselves never mentioned nor implied if you read beyond the initial sound bite of "superseding local culture."

On the flip side, you asserted (paraphrase) that 'it seems like the church's motive is x' with regard to tithing, but you're taking issue with someone saying that you've said absolutely that 'the church's motive is x,' and are upset that they've mischaracterized your statements and inserted meaning that was never there. 

If you were to juxtapose these two scenarios, which conclusions drawn from the original text (i.e. your conclusions about tithing motives vs. others' conclusions of your 'seems like' statement) more approximate the original statements?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

To be true, God can intervene in the financial situations for those who do not pay tithing too.  So if one pays tithing and gets some unexpected financial blessing, it is possible that unexpected financial blessing could have come if the person did not pay tithing.  In other words you can challenge Gray and say he does not know if God intervened or not, because of paying tithing, but in like manner you don't know if a blessing might come with or without one paying tithing.  But what we do know sans unexpected financial blessings that come when one pays tithing or not, when someone gives away 10% of their increase, they are left with 10% less than they did have. 

I think Gray is correct.  I don't think your critique a good one. 

No, we don't know that, and that's the point of my post. 

 

[Okrahomer]

1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Good, but has nothing to do with the point I am making. 

Wow...did you think I was responding to some point you were trying to make?  Nope.

My post was intended to add to the list Julian started. Apologies for not quoting her so as to avoid confusion:

Juliann said this:

"For those who are interested in what the church is doing, there is always LDS.org.  https://www.ldscharities.org/news/from-the-web/initiative:all/year:all/page:1

The Church doesn't make a fuss about this stuff. My sister was told not to talk to reporters about what they were doing. Unfortunately, that does allow critics to make up their own versions of what the church is or supposedly isn't doing. Again, they are essentially withholding information while pointing at Mormons for not being truthful. Yeah, I'm tired of they hypocrisy and double standards that we are expected to sit through on our own board. Twenty years? It can make one crabby sometimes.

What is being able to see worth? Being able to walk? Having clean water? Having access to education? Having a hospital? These things affect more than just one family. They help build and solidify communities"

Edited June 14, 2017 by Okrahomer

[Tacenda]

Maybe there is a stipulation on helping the poor in the church, such as they need to pay tithing in order to be helped, if there is ever a situation. So that they sacrifice and the church isn't enabling. Just curious. 

[MiserereNobis]

46 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

And the Lord does not bless the Gentiles, and has nothing to do with why the United States became a prosperous nation compared to oh say Afghanistan.

Just to clarify, do you believe God shows his favor by blessing people with wealth? Is Afghanistan poor compared to the US because God favors the US more?

 I'm just trying to understand what you're saying here. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

To be clear, I did not say anything about the Church wanting to fleece Africans.  I criticized the wording in the powerpoint.  You consider the powerpoint to be the voice of the Church, even when it has no official sanction from the Church?  I think you misunderstood and got unnecessarily defensive.  I did not say what you think I said. 

You know our president is not a good role model on how to weasel your way out of something right?

[BlueDreams]

7 hours ago, stemelbow said:

5.  The Gospel Culture needs to supersede local culture feels offensive to me. 
               

Quote

 

Local traditions that can hinder:

                            • Wedding and marriage traditions (reliance on extended  family members for decisions rather than doctrine and  personal agency, lack of equality between spouses).

                            • Being satisfied with attendance at Church rather than true  conversion and service.

                            • Leadership by authority alone rather than servant­ leadership  and ministering to the “one”.

 

6.  Helping members rise from poverty through the  payment of tithes and offerings and the application  of self­ reliance principles. 

not sure I can get on board with the, "well we know they are in poverty, but if we can get them pay tithes and offerings there'll get out of poverty" type of stuff.  Sounds like the goal is to get them out of poverty so the Church can make more off of them.

Stemelbow, I don't fully agree with Juliann....but this is still pretty stupid to me. And I agree....don't put words/motives in other people's mouths. 

On the first point, like others have mentioned. Gospel culture WILL have to supersede local culture at some point in all our lives. Either that or the gospel isn't doing it's job or we're not applying it in our lives. Gospel culture, IMO is not the same as church culture, mormon culture, or UT or American LDS culture. It's what is described again and again in zion societies found in scripture and based on the principles taught by Jesus Christ. The gospel message entails fundamental changes to personal being and interaction as communities. We are to become Zion after all. And all things that go against zion cannot remain. No culture is as sacred as the Gospel. What is mentioned are direct concerns that go against the Gospel of Jesus Christ and impeded the functionality of the budding gospel communities. I have absolutely no problem with the phraseology. It may help if you let go of the assumption that somehow white, western american LDS culture is somehow getting a free pass here. 

Your criticism of 6 is at best a head scratcher and an extreme stretch. It's also mildly conspiratorial and I'm pretty sure you'd have more than one african that I've known and met strongly voicing that this is obviously a poor interpretation and along the lines of: don't you dare tell me what is between me and God. Many many Africans are adamently spiritual. On a level that's probably hard to relate to here in the states. For example, when my father converted from catholicism to his protestant faith as a young teen, his parents were mad that he did so. They told him he couldn't return to the house until he stopped with this. Instead he went into a tree, read scripture, sang hymns, and ate fruit till they grew tired of it after a couple of days and let him back home. I say this to state that what you're even suggesting would be extremely offensive to several african members. Because they earnestly and honestly believe. And if they're paying tithing, they're paying tithing because they earnestly believe in the commands of God. And tithing is a commandment.  That is also earnestly and honestly believed by these leaders who were using this power point. And most believing members for that matter including myself. So they (and I) honestly believe that tithing can and should be apart of a plan to work through a gospel community to help with poverty. Because I believe in the promises of God. And you better believe many many african believers would feel just the same with a passion to every syllable about it that is hard to rival in the states. 

So I don't know how to even fit that potential criticism with the church leaders, the africans I know, or anything remotely tied to both. 

 

With luv,

BD

  

[Johnnie Cake]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

What did I say that makes you think I sound like I'm a sexual predator?  I feel like your reasoning has gone off the deep end, here Juliann.  Is this really in the realm of reasonable and civil discourse?

 

Where did I speak for "poor African black folk halfway around the world"?  All I did was offer a few points, some critiquing the content and wording of the powerpoint. 

What do you mean "as well"?  Who do you think I think is fooled in any sense in all of this?

I think you're being sensational in this, arguing against things I did not say, anticipating what you want someone who opposes the Church to say.  I don't think at all like you think I do, it seems. 

I didn't like the way it was worded wherein it says "Establishing a gospel culture that supersedes local cultures".  I didn't like how at the end it says very little about helping members rise out of poverty other than saying "Helping members rise from poverty through the  payment of tithes and offerings and the application  of self­ reliance principles."  I think the powerpoint would have been better off if instead it said something about superseding local cultures it said something more along the lines of, "embracing from local cultures that which is edifying and finding a way to insert some important gospel culture".  and instead of saying church members are helped getting out of poverty by having them pay and apply self reliance, I'd like to see something more like, "together we can help contribute to the difficulties of poverty in these areas by working together in establishing principles of self-reliance".

ANyway, that's my take.  I suppose you can run off on any sort of personal criticism you want, trying to read into what I say all you want. 

This is Juliann's MO...she labels anyone whom she disagrees with a sexist, racist, xenophobic, child abuser, wife beater, ugly American, capitalist pig or misogynist.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, Gray said:

Many Mormons seem not to believe in math...

I don't say that to be offensive, I'm just trying to be realistic.

Many people know, with certainty, that mud made from spit simply does not, indeed cannot, cure blindness.

Other people choose to see.

And this is why critics will always face frustration when they encounter Saints who seem blissfully resistant to 'the truth', mathematical or otherwise.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

I am not making stuff up! It is completly true! If you don't believe me just ask the Bishops from poor latin America wards.

Please provide me with the names and contact details for all of the 'bishops from poor Latin American wards' that you've consulted with on this topic, and I'll happily ask them.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe there is a stipulation on helping the poor in the church, such as they need to pay tithing in order to be helped, if there is ever a situation. So that they sacrifice and the church isn't enabling. Just curious. 

We have an older couple in the ward that are home-bound and therefore get help from community-service providers. The wife only recently returned to Church after about 30 years away, and her husband was baptised just last year. With copies of the Book of Mormon now in the house, one of their cleaners noticed these familiar books and mentioned that she was baptised as a youth by her member grandfather. We don't even have a membership record for her, and she hasn't shown any interest in being active. But when the older couple notified me three weeks ago that this woman was doing it tough owing to some family complications, I went straight to the shops and bought her nearly $100 of food to get her and the kids through the weekend. Then our bishop authorised the Relief Society president to have a large home delivery of groceries for them. We don't have bishops' storehouses here, but we have the Lord's storehouse, and we don't hesitate to use any facet of it.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

We have an older couple in the ward that are home-bound and therefore get help from community-service providers. The wife only recently returned to Church after about 30 years away, and her husband was baptised just last year. With copies of the Book of Mormon now in the house, one of their cleaners noticed these familiar books and mentioned that she was baptised as a youth by her member grandfather. We don't even have a membership record for her, and she hasn't shown any interest in being active. But when the older couple notified me three weeks ago that this woman was doing it tough owing to some family complications, I went straight to the shops and bought her nearly $100 of food to get her and the kids through the weekend. Then our bishop authorised the Relief Society president to have a large home delivery of groceries for them. We don't have bishops' storehouses here, but we have the Lord's storehouse, and we don't hesitate to use any facet of it.

Wouldn't expect anything different coming from you!

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe there is a stipulation on helping the poor in the church, such as they need to pay tithing in order to be helped, if there is ever a situation. So that they sacrifice and the church isn't enabling. Just curious. 

There isn't any stipulation. One doesn't need to pay tithing to receive fast offering help. One doesn't even need to be a member.

[Hamba Tuhan]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Wouldn't expect anything different coming from you!

I wouldn't expect anything different from any member of the Lord's Church.

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Just to clarify, do you believe God shows his favor by blessing people with wealth? Is Afghanistan poor compared to the US because God favors the US more?

 I'm just trying to understand what you're saying here. 

I believe the Lord does bless us with enough to cover our needs if we tithe to Him - yes. Wealth comparable to those around us? Probably not. He may bless us with good health so we don't have expenses we would otherwise have. There are myriad ways He can bless us. 

I do believe God has blessed the Gentiles with wealth compared to the rest of the world. He has done that largely by making us a free people who value independence - these things attracted much of the best talent in the world to Gentile nations which further blessed them. I believe, however, that the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, and the charge of the gospel will no longer lie with the Gentiles. Future church leadership will largely come through the Hebrew 

[MiserereNobis]

55 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And this is why critics will always face frustration when they encounter Saints who seem blissfully resistant to 'the truth', mathematical or otherwise.

Saint Francis was incredibly frustrating to those around him because he took the gospel at face value and was "blissfully resistant" to the so-called truths of those around him. Well said. 

[stemelbow]

3 hours ago, Judd said:

To clarify my point, they said x about gospel culture superseding local culture, then clarified that with q, r and s. You speculated what x meant (when q, r and s give a healthy sample of what x meant) but felt it could be as broad as encompassing a, b and c -- things they themselves never mentioned nor implied if you read beyond the initial sound bite of "superseding local culture."

I think you misread me.  Here's what I said, "The Gospel Culture needs to supersede local culture feels offensive to me. "

Where in this did I speculate what x meant?  Where in this did I feel it could be as broad as encompassing a, b and c? 

Seems clear you misunderstood and in so doing have added to that which I had said.

3 hours ago, Judd said:

On the flip side, you asserted (paraphrase) that 'it seems like the church's motive is x' with regard to tithing, but you're taking issue with someone saying that you've said absolutely that 'the church's motive is x,' and are upset that they've mischaracterized your statements and inserted meaning that was never there. 

I was clear in what I said, in both cases.  I did not say the Church's motive was to dupe anyone.  But that's what the accusation against me was.  So I clarified.  Seemed fair to me.  Not sure why you are taking issue with that. 

3 hours ago, Judd said:

If you were to juxtapose these two scenarios, which conclusions drawn from the original text (i.e. your conclusions about tithing motives vs. others' conclusions of your 'seems like' statement) more approximate the original statements?

What does that matter?  in this response to me you added to what I said, which indicated you did not pay attention to my point, yet felt the needed to criticize that which I did not say. 

[stemelbow]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You know our president is not a good role model on how to weasel your way out of something right?

Yep.  THat's why I was clear in describing and clarifying what I said.  Seems fair, no?  Or, if you rather, in what way did I try to weasel out of anything I had said? 

[Judd]

6 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I think you misread me.  Here's what I said, "The Gospel Culture needs to supersede local culture feels offensive to me. "

Where in this did I speculate what x meant?  Where in this did I feel it could be as broad as encompassing a, b and c? 

Seems clear you misunderstood and in so doing have added to that which I had said.

In the original post the "superseding" comment is referenced. It then gives examples of marriage decisions and marriage equality, true conversion vs. attending church and servant leadership and ministering to others rather than authority alone leadership. Which of those were troublesome for you? You haven't quite answered that but rather referenced finding "gospel culture superseding local culture" as being problematic -- do you take issue with any of the examples that were given to clarify what that statement meant or do you find the idea troubling in that it pertains to something extraneous to their given explanation/examples?

[Bernard Gui]

20 hours ago, stemelbow said:

5.  The Gospel Culture needs to supersede local culture feels offensive to me.

In my Latín American mission we had a problem with one group of indigenous members (the Cuna in Panama).   Many Cuna Indians joined the Church....sometimes entire islands. Their people had a tradition sort of like Mardi Gras - for one week a year they could drink chicha to excess, and most behavior that normally would not be allowed was tolerated. Chicha was drunk only at important ceremonies or rituals, but not casually. "White" and Latino Church leaders did their best to supersede this practice with the Gospel, but it was hard for those who joined the Church to let this go because for them it was part of their culture and religion. Were they wrong?

If you are interested in this dilemma, see page 10

https://books.google.com/books?id=AjLvBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=chicha+cuna&source=bl&ots=ejT1KHk2DK&sig=diqamUMdTSYXoxkEAzY3MQcCCAs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLqZ_y2bzUAhUE72MKHT8dDv8Q6AEIWjAO#v=onepage&q=chicha cuna&f=false

Edited June 14, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[stemelbow]

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Stemelbow, I don't fully agree with Juliann....but this is still pretty stupid to me.

Well that's good.  'Cause upon reading the rest of your post, it's obvious you didn't pay attention to what I said.  So whatever it is that is stupid, you seemed to have missed it. 

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

And I agree....don't put words/motives in other people's mouths. 

That's really weird you went on to do just that.  Let's see: 

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

On the first point, like others have mentioned. Gospel culture WILL have to supersede local culture at some point in all our lives. Either that or the gospel isn't doing it's job or we're not applying it in our lives. Gospel culture, IMO is not the same as church culture, mormon culture, or UT or American LDS culture. It's what is described again and again in zion societies found in scripture and based on the principles taught by Jesus Christ. The gospel message entails fundamental changes to personal being and interaction as communities. We are to become Zion after all. And all things that go against zion cannot remain. No culture is as sacred as the Gospel. What is mentioned are direct concerns that go against the Gospel of Jesus Christ and impeded the functionality of the budding gospel communities. I have absolutely no problem with the phraseology. It may help if you let go of the assumption that somehow white, western american LDS culture is somehow getting a free pass here. 

Here's what I said, simply: "The Gospel Culture needs to supersede local culture feels offensive to me. "

Upon reading your response it's as if I said something about "Mormon culture" or "UT or American LDS culture".  But I did not.  Then a lecture, ending with, "It may help if you let go of the assumption that somehow white, western american LDS culture is somehow getting a free pass here."  As you may be able to see in what I did say, there was no assumption that somehow white, western American LDS culture is somehow getting a free pass here.  But yet you advise, "It may help if yet let go of the assumption.."  I made no such assumption. 

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Your criticism of 6 is at best a head scratcher and an extreme stretch. It's also mildly conspiratorial and I'm pretty sure you'd have more than one african that I've known and met strongly voicing that this is obviously a poor interpretation and along the lines of: don't you dare tell me what is between me and God.

Here's what I said, "not sure I can get on board with the, "well we know they are in poverty, but if we can get them pay tithes and offerings there'll get out of poverty" type of stuff.  Sounds like the goal is to get them out of poverty so the Church can make more off of them."

As I explained earlier in this thread.  My thinking here was to criticize the way it was worded in the slide deck.  I have no problem, just for you, since it seems you think I do, with anyone's personal experience with God.  This slide deck is just that.  It is not stamped with approval from the Church.  I don't think you've really given my words any consideration. 

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Many many Africans are adamently spiritual.

Do you seriously think I said anything about spirituality or spirituality among African members?  This is all coming from left field for me. 

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

On a level that's probably hard to relate to here in the states.

Again, or look.  We all have our experiences in life, and simply put, you don't know mine at all.  IT's weird you feel the need to assume you do. 

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

For example, when my father converted from catholicism to his protestant faith as a young teen, his parents were mad that he did so. They told him he couldn't return to the house until he stopped with this. Instead he went into a tree, read scripture, sang hymns, and ate fruit till they grew tired of it after a couple of days and let him back home. I say this to state that what you're even suggesting would be extremely offensive to several african members. Because they earnestly and honestly believe. And if they're paying tithing, they're paying tithing because they earnestly believe in the commands of God. And tithing is a commandment.  That is also earnestly and honestly believed by these leaders who were using this power point. And most believing members for that matter including myself. So they (and I) honestly believe that tithing can and should be apart of a plan to work through a gospel community to help with poverty. Because I believe in the promises of God. And you better believe many many african believers would feel just the same with a passion to every syllable about it that is hard to rival in the states. 

Please back down.  I did not say one thing about the command to pay tithing or whether it should be paid, or whether those in poverty should pay it, or should feel good about paying it.  Indeed, if someone in poverty feels it is best that God wants them to pay tithing at the expense of everything else, I'm actually supportive of it. All I indicated is I did not appreciate how it was worded in the slide deck and explained how it came off to me.  That you think I said anything about:

--African members (I did not)

--that I said something extremely offensive to them, even though I did not mention them at all.

--That I said anything about whether members earnestly or honestly believe

--That I said anything about whether they believe in the principle of tithing.  Or that I said anything about the level of belief among anyone, let alone African members. 

--THat I said anything about the anonymous leaders who used or created the powerpoint

THis all comes from left field.  Its as if you didn't read a word I typed out and instead offered criticism based on what you assumed I must have said based on Juliann's comments, or something.  I'd actually appreciate it if you did go back and read my words and responded in kind.  But if not, no big deal.  I'll take this cheap distraction as an agreement with my post. 

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

So I don't know how to even fit that potential criticism with the church leaders, the africans I know, or anything remotely tied to both. 

 

With luv,

BD

  

Good 'cause you obviously did not address what I have said.  The weird direction you took this, as if you set up a soap box for you to talk down to me from, was really not helpful, if you ask me. 

[stemelbow]

18 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

In my Latín American mission we had a problem with one group of indigenous members (the Cuna in Panama).   Many Cuna Indians joined the Church....sometimes entire islands. Their people had a tradition sort of like Mardi Gras - for one week a year they could drink chicha to excess, and most behavior that normally would not be allowed was tolerated. Chicha was drunk only at important ceremonies or rituals, but not casually. "White" and Latino Church leaders did their best to supersede this practice with the Gospel, but it was hard for those who joined the Church to let this go because for them it was part of their cultural and religion. Were they wrong?

If you are interested in this dilemma, see page 10

https://books.google.com/books?id=AjLvBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=chicha+cuna&source=bl&ots=ejT1KHk2DK&sig=diqamUMdTSYXoxkEAzY3MQcCCAs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLqZ_y2bzUAhUE72MKHT8dDv8Q6AEIWjAO#v=onepage&q=chicha cuna&f=false

I'm happy to acknowledge that there are plenty of things about cultures around the world, that there are traditions and such, that do not square well with the gospel.  THat's not really what I disliked about the wording found in the slide deck.