Leaks about Africa

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

My tithing is now spent on charities or on individuals that need help that I know. That way I know my money isn't spent on expenses that are insane like for instance a $1,600 vase (this really happened) for the temple. God doesn't care about material things IMO. 

Justified or not, I confess John 12 came to mind. But I shan't pursue that comment further.

I'm not too sure why the thread largely became a pick on Juliann thread. From experience/recollection I know she knows the Church isn't without room for improvement. Indeed, I suspect it is partly that awareness that shortens her patience with what she might deem as petty or exaggerated criticisms -- patience not tested with just one but many jabs/threads. Granted, "petty" is a subjective term but this thread would be far more interesting if substance and not personality were addressed more.

[ducks back down to lurker mode]

[Gray]

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

I know some people who say very confidently that God doesn't take two fish and five loaves of bread and feed 5,000 people.  They claim that it's an issue of math.  They don't understand God.

I would agree with those people. The fish and the loaves is, IMO, metaphor.

 

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

I've seen God provide financially for people who pay tithing.  I'm not saying that He always (or even usually) provides cash, but you can bless people financially without providing cash, as i'm sure you know.  And getting out of poverty is not just an issue of having more cash (it's not usually even the most important issue), as I'm sure you also know.  

It's very possible to pay tithing and also become financially better off than when you started paying tithing. 

 

Typically the reasoning goes like this.

Pay tithing. > Get into financial trouble > Eventually get out of financial trouble. Somewhere along the way God is inserted between part 2 and 3, although how anyone would know that God was intervening somehow is beyond me. God could just as easily be inserted between part one and part two as the change agent.

But God doesn't work like that. We know how God works, if we'll open our eyes and look. God does not intervene. Natural consequences are part of the nature of God.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, Gray said:

God does not intervene.

I think we may have been hanging out with different Gods...

[Gray]

9 hours ago, RevTestament said:

No, the people of Afghanistan aren't gentiles. Gentiles are descended through Japheth according to the Bible. Afghans are a mixture of Asian, Arabian, Greek, Hebrew and who knows what other peoples. I do believe God has blessed the Gentiles. I believe the Gentiles are wealthier because of their principles of freedom, hard work, and originally Christianity, but I also believe the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. 

You're mistaken there. Gentiles are non-Jews.

 

 

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Utah is listed as 14th in the country per capita income, with a lower cost of living than most of the ones listed higher such as California and Hawaii - that is pretty dang high given that it started rock bottom 130 years ago. Utah is definitely not a poor state. It is also one of the few that maintained a balanced budget through the crash. I never claimed paying tithe created wealth either. That is a misinterpretation of what I said. I said God has blessed the Gentiles - many of whom no longer pay any tithe - but as Protestant Christians, yes, God did bless them. I also said God blesses those who tithe. He does this in many ways. Being the richest is not usually a blessing - it brings pride and other bad things.

 

I think all of that is fair. Thanks.

 

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In your very humble opinion I am sure. They see it differently. Since I have returned to the Church, I have always paid my tithe. I am certainly not the richest LDS - in fact I am borderline poor, but I have always had enough food, something to drive, a roof over my head, and modern conveniences. I don't need anything else, although I really would like to have a garage...if anyone is listening.... By world standards I am rich. But, my family is blessed with relatively good health, my wife with a new job, and she also stopped getting sick so she can work it. What more do I really need? I have what I need to do the Lord's work. I have more than Jesus had - at least in terms of possessions - but what I lack is His knowledge and countenance. These are the truest blessings one can seek or receive.

This indicates that your your disposable income is 10% or more than your total income. That's it. No need to read the tea leaves when it comes to personal finance.

But, it doesn't sound like you're doing that here per se. Money certainly isn't everything - unless you don't have enough to feed your family!

Edited June 15, 2017 by Gray

[Gray]

5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think we may have been hanging out with different Gods...

I think we've both been hanging out with both of them for quite some time.

[USU78]

9 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Christians had nothing against slavery.

What a very odd thing to say. Antislavery is an almost exclusively Christian phenomenon.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, RevTestament said:

If you are inferring that Islam will have another golden age due to the oscillatory nature of history, I think not.

You have a bad habit of overthinking things, and missing the point.  I said nothing about another cycle.  You seem to understand that we are near the eschaton, in any case.

5 hours ago, RevTestament said:

.............................................

Ouch. Wow... but you are technically incorrect. The Ulfberht was technically not Damascus steel. Damascus steel was cooled slower. No one really knows for sure how the Vikings got ahold of crucible steel, but it was probably through the Volga trade route into Iran. ............

Correct, but you again miss the point.  I said nothing about the rest of Europe having any inkling of the source of the Viking steel.

5 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I have repeatedly said on this thread that the European gentiles learned slavery from the Roman Empire. In fact the word slavery comes from their enslavement of the Slavic people - but you probably know that. You are completely ignoring my point of who introduced slavery into Africa(besides Egypt), and that was Islam rather than Christianity, so I am placing the blame in the right place where I brought it up. Most of the Islamic male slaves didn't survive their slavery so aren't here to attest to the world about it. They were routinely castrated by their Muslim captors - often dying from it. Nevertheless, they could no longer reproduce and so their descendants are not around today. The women were essentially used to breed their armies, so their descendants also are not around today to attest to it. In Islam Arabic slaves could go free, but other ethnic groups were routinely passed off through inheritance laws to be slaves forever. Anyway my point was with regards to slavery in Africa. The Europeans got their slaves from the Muslim slave traders who were long established in Africa. Do not mislead Africans into believing that the slave trade there was introduced by Europeans.

As I have already said, the blame game is just plain wrong here.  Regardless of who introduced slavery into sub-Saharan Africa first, the rapacity of Europeans was the true impetus in modern times, and there can be no blame-shifting, as though true Christianity could ever be claimed for either Europe, the Middle East, or Africa.  White slavery was the norm in Greece, Rome, and Europe, and continued through feudalism.  The Muslims adopted that apostate Christian norm much later, and they even sold fellow Muslims into the Atlantic slave-trade.  It was all about making money.

[Darren10]

On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 3:36 PM, stemelbow said:

              

6.  Helping members rise from poverty through the  payment of tithes and offerings and the application  of self­ reliance principles. 

not sure I can get on board with the, "well we know they are in poverty, but if we can get them pay tithes and offerings there'll get out of poverty" type of stuff.  Sounds like the goal is to get them out of poverty so the Church can make more off of them.

Anyway, thoughts?

Lorenzo Snow may disagree. Just like paying tithing has blessed the Church, it blesses the individual. My wife and I have made tithe payment a top priority and it has greatly helped us during our financial troubles. I'm one who views obedience to the Lord as a vehicle to blessings. Some are divine, done out of God's mercy, and some are what I call "natural blessings". By the latter I mean that you will automatically gain a virtue / value personally just by living a standard God expects us to live. One "natural blessing" I think comes from tithe payments is that the tithe payer becomes more attune to money, its worth, and how to more properly budget it. I think by requiring the poor to pay tithing in order to receive temporal help empowers the needy with a valuable skill to get out of poverty and enrich their future; especially their children's future.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

v You personally know of these members? Please send me a personal message with their names and details, and I will contact their branch presidents/bishops and find out what's gone wrong.

No, not personally. But I remember this organization that is helping stakes and wards in other countries. Maybe one of these are in your area. https://liahonachildren.org/ A quote from their website: Nearly a hundred thousand LDS children have been identified as needing help with nutrition. For some it is life and death. For others it is a life of disadvantage due to poor brain development. Either way, we thank good people like you for being willing to help nourish these children's potentials. 

[Darren10]

On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 8:06 PM, Garden Girl said:

In regard to tithing... I reactivated after many years of being away from Church (and 3 years prior to my non-LDS husband's unexpected death). From the time I reactivated, I paid tithing on my retirement pension only.  I continued to faithfully pay my full tithes and offerings after his death even though sometimes I struggled since my income available had been cut substantially.  I received many blessings of various types, including never having to go back to work during 27 years of retirement, but being able to be self sustaining and comfortable in my retirement.  I'm 76 years old, widowed for 19 years, own my home outright (and everything else), and am essentially debt free... looking back over the years, I realize I can't afford not to pay tithing.  Brings to mind something about the promise of  "the windows of heaven."

from the beach on a lovely June evening... GG

My father-in-law reactivated into church long ago. He quickly spotted a very attractive young woman, who is my mother-in-law, and pursued her. My understanding is that he remained active primarily to date her. She had a frank conversation with him (if you know her, being frank with others is a spot on characterization of her) and in part told him to pay his tithing. He thought about it and did. He was floored about how many blessings came after. He gained a testimony, a real one, about the gift of paying tithing and has been a faithful tithe payer ever since. Paying tithing is also my wife's defining character so far as being faithful in the gospel is concerned. Both my wife and I, and my in laws, have a very firm conviction regarding tithing as a means to blessings, financial and otherwise.

Thanks you for that post.

[Darren10]

On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 8:33 PM, USU78 said:

I'm offended that Jesus is represented as being Jewish

[Darren10]

On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 8:44 PM, stemelbow said:

I don't think you are clueless, USU78.  And I try not to mock too many anyway. 

Oh, the irony.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Darren10

[Darren10]

10 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Your sanctimony and rudeness are hard to take. I don't expect you to be an "appreciative audience" but common courtesy and respect would be nice and really doesn't seem all that difficult. We all have our moments but recognition and self -evaluation seem beyond your capabilities. I'll respond here and then I'll let you have the final attack word.

I am embarrassed for you because it seems clear you either can't see the incongruity to your proclaimed beliefs and your behavior towards others, or you simply believe others like me deserve your abuse. It's a sad and unfortunate perspective either way, for which I am sorry for you.

You suggested Stem may be a "sexual predator". That you think this is a defensible statement is mind boggling. If Mods allow that kind of thing to stand I will lose all respect for them. What you said is not intelligent. No one is forcing you to listen attentively to other poster's POV's. You are choosing to participate and you seem to believe that you should have a most favored status on this board. But even if you strongly disagree with a person, I don't see why it would be so difficult to be "attentive" and "respectful" of the differences.

I have places I can go? Really? Thanks for the heads up. But I like coming here for what is usually an engaging conversation. I'm not seeking an echo chamber like you seem to want, so I don't want to go elsewhere. Get over it. "We" are all stymied why I come here? Who is this "we" you speak of? Are you really that incapable of being respectful to others?

I agree that this could be a great conversation. It was heading in a decent direction until your personal attack on Stem derailed it. I have NOT offered a "ridiculous reaction to one line in a leaked power point." What I have done is offered a reasonable reaction to your ridiculous statement about Stem in what I can only assume was an attempt to make a rhetorical point. But your attempt was unseemly and IMO inappropriate for a board on which we attempt to have respectful conversations.

What people like you don't seem to realize is that you push people further away. Your rudeness, accusations, and acrimonious approach to defending your faith only demonstrates your weakness and what some would consider a weakness of the faith. Does faith lead to that kind of acrimony? I don't think so, but you sure make it look unattractive. You are an anti-missionary, even if that is opposite of your intent.  

Didn't you once imply I was a homophobe Happy Jack? Or, perhaps I inferred wrong.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Darren10

[BlueDreams]

12 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I'm willing to start over, if that's what you want.  My post said:
I see the responses you've given me haven't really addressed it, nor other points I"ve raised, so I'm not sure what you want to discuss regarding it.  Please advise.  I think I was pretty clear. 

Iv'e addressed that a couple of times.  It was to discuss the content of the link.  My OP offered some points that I found either interesting or problematic with the linked material.  I said my piece. 

I offered the OP.  Some points.  A couple of questions.  What is not clear to you? 

What point do you need beyond the questions and comments I offered?  Do I need to have an end goal when I offer a post?  The goal is to explore my thoughts by having people address what I say.  My goal has nothing to do with you and others trying to say I said things I did not say. 

 

I disagree which is why I asked several time what is the point. If there was a specific direction you were going for for this leak. Or if you were just spit-balling thoughts stream-of-conscious style about what you felt without any real direction or purpose beyond this. The OP seemed pretty amorphous beyond what seemed like straining at gnats with negativity at points. 

To the main points I (like many others here from the direction of the thread) already said what I thought. But I'll summarize as well.  The PP numbers is exciting to me and shows a very positive direction in growth trends that if cultivated with care could really flourish. I found nothing really to critique of it, especially when there was very little present in the leak beyond a PP which is a very basic outline at best for most people. 

I found your points of opinions straining at gnats at best. I mentioned my concerns and the assumptions I made. You've told me those were incorrect. I still think the idea that you find gospel culture superseding local culture as a little offensive short sighted at best. Easily countered (as many here have done with really great examples as to when gospel culture should superseded local customs). And ridiculous.

I found the thoughts about tithing that you were randomly shooting out as cynical and ungrounded from the perspectives of both those in poverty willing to pay and the leaders who are both very likely firm believers in the commandment. A commandment that stretches into all books of scripture and includes examples such as the widow mite thrown in there. It's baseless, in other words.

I don't think you were pretty clear. Still don't. But that's my thoughts. They are scattered in a number of the posts i've already made. There is not enough information to really talk about the PP....because it's a PP of 21 slides with absolutely little context to see how it was used. 

I come off passionately because the people addressed in the PP are a part of my people. My direct relatives all of a generation back. 

Quote

That's not proof.  Multiple people could be mistaken.  So I challenge you, where did you read anything about what you accused me of?

The likelihood greatly diminishes overtime. When there's a general interaction that happens again and again from varying people of varying backgrounds....I begin to believe that the problem may not be large swaths of people but how the individual is interacting or explaining things. 

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I can't tell if you are wanting to apologize and are really saying you want to move on, or if you really think I said anything near what you accused me of saying in your first couple of responses in this thread. It turns out whether someone agrees with you or not has nothing to do with whether your point carries any merit.  Sorry...I need more than some vague "me and other's don't understand so it's your fault that we decided to mischaracterize what you said".  That's not to say I'm not open to feedback or complaints.  I simply haven't seen any thing for me to go off of, so I can change. If you aren't interested...you aren't interested.  Not a problem.  But the way you came at me suggested otherwise. 

If you want to discuss the points and questions raised int he OP, be my guest.  If not, no problem.  You don't have to.  But I still haven't seen any willingness for you to apologize for trying to put words in my mouth, nor for you trying to define my intentions

 

That's because I'm not trying to apologize. I apologize when I feel I've done something morally wrong or feel bad about something. I don't feel like I did that. I just stopped saying what you've assured me is not the case for where you were going or meaning in your post. I'm fine doing so. But I don't feel bad about it and I don't feel like I've done something morally wrong. It was my perception. You may not like it, but it doesn't make it inherently bad. I don't like your assumption about how offensive some points in the PP may be. I think you're wrong. But I don't expect an apology for it. 

Quote

Sure I can.  To call it like it is can be an effective way to move past it so we can get back to peace and harmony.  It's worked for me before in different venues.  I'm hoping ti works again.  If not, that'll be a shame.  It's easy to move on in most cases. 

Except that isn't "how it is," that's your perception of it. It's not accurate. It's inflammatory. I don't appreciate it and I'm not feeling some return to peace and harmony. In some ways I feel patronized. My guess is if this is something similar to what has happened before, some may have just gotten frustrated and decided for themselves this isn't worth it. That's not peace and harmony, that's shutting down and calling the quiet that follows peaceful. That is my experience with this. You've already mentioned that you don't necessarily care. And that's your right. But I don't want my silence to be mistaken as somehow agreement with this statement, in particular. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited June 15, 2017 by BlueDreams

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You have a bad habit of overthinking things, and missing the point.  I said nothing about another cycle.  You seem to understand that we are near the eschaton, in any case.

I do try to cover all the bases, but I really don't understand your point of bringing up the cycle in the first place. It seems irrelevant to me. I realize that every society rises and falls - at least so far in history. How that is supposed to tie into my conclusions though is a mystery. It has nothing to do with your contention that Islam somehow saved European civilization imho. 

Quote

Correct, but you again miss the point.  I said nothing about the rest of Europe having any inkling of the source of the Viking steel.

If we are going to talk about bad habits, you have a bad habit of picking at little things which don't forward your argument, just to be right, or perhaps in an effort to embarrass people("If you knew history, you would already know that."), and continuing on even when you're wrong. At least here you finally admit you're wrong and I'm right, but we are left nowhere because your contention about the Vikings supposedly acquiring Damascus steel does nothing to forward your argument that Islam somehow was responsible for saving European civilization. In actuality the Vikings apparently had access to a source of the steel, but not the forging process to make the Damascus swords. The Vikings apparently used this steel to make excellent swords, but they weren't the Damascus steel swords. So, no I do not miss the point as you contend - the steel technology did not benefit the Europeans with some exception of the Vikings who also kept it a secret, so we are back to square one. No evidence that Islamic technology or civilization was responsible for saving civilization. I maintain that the best evidence is that Islam was virtually almost single-handedly responsible for destroying civilization - the exact opposite of your still unproven contention.

 

Quote

As I have already said, the blame game is just plain wrong here.  Regardless of who introduced slavery into sub-Saharan Africa first, the rapacity of Europeans was the true impetus in modern times, and there can be no blame-shifting, as though true Christianity could ever be claimed for either Europe, the Middle East, or Africa.  White slavery was the norm in Greece, Rome, and Europe, and continued through feudalism.  The Muslims adopted that apostate Christian norm much later, and they even sold fellow Muslims into the Atlantic slave-trade.  It was all about making money.

My point in bringing up the subject at all was to counter the seeming contention of the OP that somehow Church actions are threatening to destroy or replace African culture. I was merely trying to point out that Islam already did that. It was not to get into a debate about the complex history of slavery, and where it began. Obviously I realize Islam is one of the newer religions of the world and is not responsible for introducing slavery into the world, but neither is Christianity if you want to play that game.

To my contention that Africa once had large, prosperous Christian societies before Islam, and that Islam was responsible for enslaving Africa and destroying their Christian society you stated:

"Not so.  The golden age of Islam saved civilization when Christian Europe was in the throes of the Dark Ages.  The so-called "Christian" Renaissance (courtesy of that Islamic golden age) brought the rapacious European colonial powers to divide up Africa among themselves -- enslaving Africa without mercy.  Africa is still recovering from that "Christian" onslaught."

Again what I said is so. Africa had large Christian populations before Islam came along. If you want to place some of the blame on the European powers for further messing up Africa, I can certainly agree with that, but don't pretend like Islam had no part in it. The West African area at issue still has large Muslim populations. I agree that European colonialism sucked for native peoples. Disease, slavery, and warfare were the norms of their colonialist expansions.  The English were little better than the Spanish or Portuguese. But to pretend that these powers were the first to enslave Africa is again just not so. You keep bringing it up as if it somehow alleviates what Islam did there. It does not. Islam did virtually the same thing there that it did elsewhere only perhaps worse. Most historians on the subject believe the vast majority of slaves captured for the causes of Islam died before ever even becoming slaves in the arduous journeys across desserts after being castrated, etc. Records still exist for the Islamic slave markets, so there is no skirting the issue. Millions died. Again the point is the restored gospel is not going to replace the native cultural identity of Africans. The above sad tale is partially why.

[Robert F. Smith]

10 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I do try to cover all the bases, but I really don't understand your point of bringing up the cycle in the first place. It seems irrelevant to me. I realize that every society rises and falls - at least so far in history............

 

If that were so, you would not have missed the main point, which is the Islamic golden age, which existed when Europe was in the midst of the Dark Ages, and you would not have denied that it was precisely that golden age which allowed Europe to recover in the Renaissance.  That you denied all of that is astonishing and bears the distinct marks of irrational Islamophobia.  To ignore that you had to pretend that history is linear instead of oscillatory, and to further muddy the waters by demanding a further cycle, which has not happened yet because history is coming to a jarring close.  To justify all that you invent arguments which I did not make and spend precious time refuting them.

10 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

....................................we are left nowhere because your contention about the Vikings supposedly acquiring Damascus steel does nothing to forward your argument that Islam somehow was responsible for saving European civilization....................................................... I maintain that the best evidence is that Islam was virtually almost single-handedly responsible for destroying civilization - the exact opposite of your still unproven contention.

My point on Viking steel was not that it saved Europe, but that it invalidated your absolute statement on technology transfer.  You ignored my actual argument on the way in which the Islamic golden age saved Europe by focusing on that strawman.

[RevTestament]

38 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

If that were so, you would not have missed the main point, which is the Islamic golden age, which existed when Europe was in the midst of the Dark Ages, and you would not have denied that it was precisely that golden age which allowed Europe to recover in the Renaissance.  That you denied all of that is astonishing and bears the distinct marks of irrational Islamophobia.  To ignore that you had to pretend that history is linear instead of oscillatory, and to further muddy the waters by demanding a further cycle, which has not happened yet because history is coming to a jarring close.  To justify all that you invent arguments which I did not make and spend precious time refuting them.

I realize I must bug the heck out of you, but you have done nothing to support your argument that Islam was responsible for saving civilization except accuse me of being Islamophobic. The one knit you chose to pick - the Viking sword - you were technically incorrect about and doesn't even remotely support your contentions. You for some reason just expect me to believe your contention that Islam somehow saved civilization. I don't believe it coincidental that Timurlane's destruction of the Middle Eastern Muslim and Christian civilization, and the subsequent end of the Islamic Golden Age was also when Europe's civilization began to recover from the Dark Ages - if the Golden Age of Islam were responsible as you contend, it seems Europe would have recovered from the Dark Ages while the Golden Age was still in sway. It's fall is what allowed Europe to recover, as I have contended - not its existence. 

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My point on Viking steel was not that it saved Europe, but that it invalidated your absolute statement on technology transfer.  You ignored my actual argument on the way in which the Islamic golden age saved Europe by focusing on that strawman.

You were technically wrong about any technology transfer at the behest of Muslims anyway.  No one really knows where the Vikings got the steel. And it is an almost absolute certainty that the  Muslims did not invent Damascus steel. That was probably the invention of an Eastern Christian, and just discovered by the Muslims sometime around 700 AD, and put to use to make their swords. Nevertheless, the Muslims were so secretive about it, that no one really knows for sure if it was invented by a Muslim or just a technology they ran across and adopted. The fact that Viking swords were not technically Damascus steel, indicates that the smelting technology pre-existed Islam in the East, and had spread around somewhat. The Vikings probably just found a northern smelter from which they could buy crucible steel, but didn't ever learn how to forge it into Damascus steel. Perhaps the Muslims were involved in forging the steel into Damascus steel, and if so this technology didn't make it to Europe so your point was moot - if not, your point is still moot. It is you who wasted time bringing up the strawman point about Viking "Damascus" steel, which did nothing to further your argument, and necessitated all the additional argumentation. I'm tired, so I'm going to retire. Good night.

 

[CV75]

13 hours ago, Gray said:

90%I < 100%I

The math doesn't get more basic than that.

But you’re using an equation when you should be using a formula to describe multiple interrelated processes and not just a simplistic correlation between two states that are part of a larger sequence.

13 hours ago, Gray said:

What is the connection between self-reliance and paying tithing?

When you understand math enough to use a formula rather than an equation, you will see it.

But let’s cut to the chase, which you and @stemelbow dodged all day: what blessings do you receive from paying tithing and living the principles of self-reliance? Posted 23 hours ago  Or, why do you do these things?

Edited June 15, 2017 by CV75

[stemelbow]

8 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

 

I disagree which is why I asked several time what is the point. If there was a specific direction you were going for for this leak. Or if you were just spit-balling thoughts stream-of-conscious style about what you felt without any real direction or purpose beyond this. The OP seemed pretty amorphous beyond what seemed like straining at gnats with negativity at points. 

To the main points I (like many others here from the direction of the thread) already said what I thought. But I'll summarize as well.  The PP numbers is exciting to me and shows a very positive direction in growth trends that if cultivated with care could really flourish. I found nothing really to critique of it, especially when there was very little present in the leak beyond a PP which is a very basic outline at best for most people. 

I found your points of opinions straining at gnats at best. I mentioned my concerns and the assumptions I made. You've told me those were incorrect. I still think the idea that you find gospel culture superseding local culture as a little offensive short sighted at best. Easily countered (as many here have done with really great examples as to when gospel culture should superseded local customs). And ridiculous.

I think there's a great deal to discuss about culture and traditions that permeate various societies.  Both help to define diversity in this world.  I'm not sure what the power point really is trying to convey at this point, thus I said, "feels like".  But I do stand by my original assessment.  The title of the two pages, without qualifiers, says there is a need to supersede local cultures.  The second slide lists a couple of examples of traditions that whoever put this together think are problematic.  They are either being rather naïve to say culture and tradition are the same, are being sloppy, or are saying culture should be superseded overall and some traditions are problematic.  But in the end, the title I find unhelpful.  I really do wish it was different. 

There's always some sadness as development scours the planet.  In some ways it hurts traditions and cultures and thus some of the beauty and vibrancy of places gets negatively effected.  That will always be as cultures typically shift and adjust over time.  The title of the two slide, strictly put, suggests there is a need to supersede this

Quote

The nations of West Africa have vibrant cultures. Musicians from the region are world-renown and its musical traditions have influenced jazz, blues, rock and gospel music heard in the West and in Latin America. Traditional clothing range from the brightly colored and elegant Boubous worn by the women to the regal kente cloth robes, with colors representing such virtues as peace, purity, healing, and renewal. Its glorious history is shone its development of great institutions of education, as centers of trade and commerce and as an international crossroads. There is much to be proud of in Western African cultures.

There is also a strong oral tradition. For example the griot, traditional storytellers, poets and musicians of the region, keep history and legends alive and promote harmony among the diverse population. They are the descendants of Mandinka or Malinke (also known as Mandinko or Mandingo) of the Mali Empire where the local language is Bambara also known as Dioula.
In countries where literacy rates are not high, knowledge, wisdom, and cultural traditions are verbally passed down from elders to children. The time to connect the generations has always been when the work stopped and families gather for meals.

The abundance of food, or its lack, now plays a big role in how often the people of Mali, Senegal and other nations in West Africa gather to eat and how much opportunity there is for families to come together and share their stories. Keeping this connection between family members thriving is a big part of Agile International’s mission. By working to increase the abundance of food, Agile International is helping to keep family bonds strong, culture and history alive.

It's always a bit concerning to me when outsiders come into a region and negative effect the local culture.  Outsiders can't grasp the relevance or depth of given cultures.  I get your upset by this, but I find it worth discussing.  You don't care to?  fine by me.  Have fun.  It'd have been nice if you just said it doesn't matter to you and we could have moved on. 

8 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I found the thoughts about tithing that you were randomly shooting out as cynical and ungrounded from the perspectives of both those in poverty willing to pay and the leaders who are both very likely firm believers in the commandment. A commandment that stretches into all books of scripture and includes examples such as the widow mite thrown in there. It's baseless, in other words.

Simply put, I did not say what you think I said on this.  I've already expressed, I believe to you, that I'd happily support anyone in poverty who wants to donate a tithe.  I'd say on your criticism here, you'd have to go back to the drawing board.  Perhaps consider what I did say.  If not, no big deal.  It doesnt' feel like you have much in the way of what I was thinking on this. 

8 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I don't think you were pretty clear. Still don't. But that's my thoughts. They are scattered in a number of the posts i've already made. There is not enough information to really talk about the PP....because it's a PP of 21 slides with absolutely little context to see how it was used. 

I come off passionately because the people addressed in the PP are a part of my people. My direct relatives all of a generation back. 

The likelihood greatly diminishes overtime. When there's a general interaction that happens again and again from varying people of varying backgrounds....I begin to believe that the problem may not be large swaths of people but how the individual is interacting or explaining things. 

That's because I'm not trying to apologize. I apologize when I feel I've done something morally wrong or feel bad about something. I don't feel like I did that. I just stopped saying what you've assured me is not the case for where you were going or meaning in your post. I'm fine doing so. But I don't feel bad about it and I don't feel like I've done something morally wrong. It was my perception. You may not like it, but it doesn't make it inherently bad. I don't like your assumption about how offensive some points in the PP may be. I think you're wrong. But I don't expect an apology for it.

Ok.  I mean I was willing to move on, but since you brought it up, I had asked you to give me something anything that would give you the impression I was saying anything near what you had accused me of?  You had nothing.  You likely would not be able to find anything, because obviously I did not say anything near what you had accused me of.  And that feels like you just want to skirt on past your terrible accusations and imputations--as if I had said something offensive.   If you want to hide from it, fine.  I honestly don't care.  I found your effort rather petty and small minded, so I said so.  I meant no particular offense, but I did feel the need to be clear. 

8 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

 

 

Except that isn't "how it is," that's your perception of it. It's not accurate. It's inflammatory. I don't appreciate it and I'm not feeling some return to peace and harmony. In some ways I feel patronized. My guess is if this is something similar to what has happened before, some may have just gotten frustrated and decided for themselves this isn't worth it. That's not peace and harmony, that's shutting down and calling the quiet that follows peaceful. That is my experience with this. You've already mentioned that you don't necessarily care. And that's your right. But I don't want my silence to be mistaken as somehow agreement with this statement, in particular. 

 

With luv,

BD

Welcome to your lead BD.  Your first response here was nothing but inflammatory, in my estimation.  That you don't realize that is pretty sad.  but hopefully by me having to turn it back you realize how you came off.  You accused me of saying things I would never think in my life.  You tried to impute motives to me that were nothing near where my heart is.  You put words in my mouth that I found rather offensive. And you used incendiary language.  I wish you well, and hope in the future and on other topics we don't have such issues.  I'll continue to respect you and hope to get the same out of you.  BUt in this thread, at least in part, I found your participation hostile and unhelpful.  I think you are better than that.  Have fun. 

[HappyJackWagon]

13 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I think we may have been hanging out with different Gods...

You hang out with God? You must have some great stories.

[stemelbow]

31 minutes ago, CV75 said:

But you’re using an equation when you should be using a formula to describe multiple interrelated processes and not just a simplistic correlation between two states that are part of a larger sequence.

When you understand math enough to use a formula rather than an equation, you will see it.

But let’s cut to the chase, which you and @stemelbow dodged all day: what blessings do you receive from paying tithing and living the principles of self-reliance? Posted 23 hours ago  Or, why do you do these things?

I didn't dodge that.  As I said, I've never even considered "blessings" because of paying tithing.  It's never been my mindset.  As far as I can tell you, I've never received a blessing for paying tithing.  I don't seek such.  I don't know that any fortune (not necessarily monetary here either) is given to me due of me paying tithing. As it is, each and every fortunate thing that has happened to be has also happened to someone out there who has not paid tithing. 

Hope that helps for whatever it is you are looking for. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

You hang out with God? You must have some great stories.

I do!

[stemelbow]

15 hours ago, juliann said:

More denial.  How many more posters have to object for you to even consider that you created the problem with an OP dedicated to a petty slam against the church and its members? 

Talk about a eye roller, Juliann.  Calling a few observations, questions and concerns about a powerpoint that may or may not have the backing by the Church itself, a slam is really rather petty.  You consider that I raised the issues I did petty?  Great.  Don't care, honestly.  I found your participation in this thread not only petty, in the extreme, but hostile.  So there ya go. 

With that said, I realize no matter what you say, you will get posters giving you thumbs up (my goodness you got 3 thumbs up when you suggested I sounded like a sexual predator).  That's the nature of this place.  Good for you and good for them.  I find the extreme efforts you have made to create sides distasteful.  many here support that which I find distasteful.  So be it. I say move on.  I'm wanting to. 

Edited June 15, 2017 by stemelbow

[HappyJackWagon]

10 hours ago, Darren10 said:

Didn't you once imply I was a homophobe Happy Jack? Or, perhaps I inferred wrong.

Did I? CFR. If you are going to make that claim, I'd like to see it so I can review whether or not you are accurate. Did I use the word "homophobe"? I don't recall this interaction. If you choose not to answer the CFR or can't, I hope you'll remove the accusation.

If you find something, I'd like to see it so I can see whether or not you "inferred" wrong. However, I would suggest that there is a difference between "inferring" you are saying things that are homophobic and "calling" you homophobic. Not that "inferring" is very polite either but it does seem different than blatantly accusing you of something.

I just want to make sure that your claim is more accurate than Juliann's claims about a variety of things she has attributed to me on this thread that have been demonstrated to be untrue.

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I do!

Sweet! I've got some questions that a person who hangs out with God would likely be able to answer.

What does God look like?

When is the last time you spoke face to face?

What did God say?

What's the best joke God has told you?

Does God have a favorite song?

 

Or are you claiming you hang out "metaphorically"?