Leaks about Africa

[RevTestament]

4 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Christians and slavery.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery

Ah, not so fast. The very first sentence in your link is: "Christian views on slavery are varied both regionally and historically." That is exactly what I pointed out in a complete paragraph to you. There is no uniform Christian viewpoint on slavery. You are merely looking at a gentile practice learned through the Roman Empire and Catholicism. However, to their credit Catholicism did stop the practice of slavery. As I indicated not all Christians adopted slavery, and the NT speaks against it. So saying Christians had no problem with slavery is just not accurate. It depends on which Christian group, and where you are talking about. In early Christianity the Eastern Church was just as big if not bigger than the western Church, and it never practiced slavery that history shows to my knowledge. Gentiles tend to think of Christianity as only the western form, and that is just not so - at least not in the early Church. The western form is just what survived Islam, until true Christianity was restored as prophesied in Revelation 12, 1260 years later.

[RevTestament]

28 minutes ago, pogi said:

To be fair, Christians are no different. 

In Romans, Paul says that either you are a slave of sin or you are a slave of obedience (6:16) or righteousness (6:18, 19) or God (6:22).

Reminds me of a good ol' Dylan song, "Gotta Serve Somebody"

 

Do you consider yourself a slave to God? Although sometimes I feel that way, I realize he has given me a choice, and I chose, and I serve Him in love rather than out of fear or a sense of being forced to. That is a huge difference. Muslims have no personal relationship with Allah. Allah is not their father - that is shirk(unforgivable sin) to them. See Allah doesn't need man, but created man because he wanted servants. Our God is our Father who sent our brother to teach us how to be like Him. The difference is staggeringly huge. Our God loves us as He does Himself.

[RevTestament]

44 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

The last part makes my point nicely. You suffered a drop in monetary wealth by going back to church and paying tithing. It is a sacrifice but you believe it is a worthy sacrifice. Nevertheless, it is a sacrifice and not a pathway to wealth or to getting out of poverty.

I never have said that tithing was the path to wealth. See my very first post where I said the Church teaches that tithing brings financial blessings, but that I had my doubts about that. You appear to be setting up some strawman to mow over for victory. I also never even said tithing was a path out of poverty. I have indicated that if we tithe and follow the commandments, that God will bless us, and I believe He will bless us with enough to meet our needs. But one cannot appeal to God to have their needs met if one isn't being obedient.

You are ignoring my point that our tithe did not hurt us in the long run. You completely ignored that God answered my prayer on behalf of my wife, and led her to a place where she was able to eventually get a good-paying job earning 3 times what she did at first. You contend, I suppose, that God had nothing to do with that and did not bless her for her righteous obedience even when we were in our want for income. 

My drop in monetary wealth had nothing to do with tithing. It had to do with giving up my chosen profession, and trying to research and write a book on part-time job income, and I believe the fact that the Lord wanted to try me.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

10 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I never have said that tithing was the path to wealth. See my very first post where I said the Church teaches that tithing brings financial blessings, but that I had my doubts about that. You appear to be setting up some strawman to mow over for victory. I also never even said tithing was a path out of poverty. I have indicated that if we tithe and follow the commandments, that God will bless us, and I believe He will bless us with enough to meet our needs. But one cannot appeal to God to have their needs met if one isn't being obedient.

You are ignoring my point that our tithe did not hurt us in the long run. You completely ignored that God answered my prayer on behalf of my wife, and led her to a place where she was able to eventually get a good-paying job earning 3 times what she did at first. You contend, I suppose, that God had nothing to do with that and did not bless her for her righteous obedience even when we were in our want for income. 

My drop in monetary wealth had nothing to do with tithing. It had to do with giving up my chosen profession, and trying to research and write a book on part-time job income, and I believe the fact that the Lord wanted to try me.

I am not here to do a gotcha.

[Nofear]

The comment about gospel and culture brought Sharon Eubank's comments to mind.

Quote

I am going to tell you a story, and it actually happened to Lillian DeLong, a friend of mine. She served on a Relief Society board years ago. And she was assigned to go to Ghana. And she had her husband with her. And they were in a very rural part of Ghana. So, they did their training. She was there to do Relief Society Training. And it is a very simple structure and they were in different rooms, and her husband was in Priesthood and she was in Relief Society and they did their training. After it was over, a woman came up to her, in her beautiful Ghanaian church dress, and she shook her hand and she kept saying “This is a woman’s church.” She’s just crying and tears are just streaming down her face. She kept saying, “This is a woman’s church.” Lillian didn’t really know what she was talking about. And she’s smiling and saying, “Yeah.” But the woman just kept pumping her hand and saying over and over again, “This is a woman’s church.” And finally Lillian said, “What do you mean, ‘This is a woman’s church?’” And she said, “We have just been in the marvelous Relief Society that teaches us not only spiritual things but temporal things about how to make our lives and our children and our families better. And at the same time your husband is in the Priesthood room and he is teaching our husbands that the culture of the church does not allow for them to beat their wives and their children.”

and

Quote

This question. I worry about what seems to be a crumbling society in Africa. Yet it seems that the church is growing a lot there. My question is, is there hope for Africa?

Africa, in a lot of ways, in my mind is more hopeful than our own society. And it is because they are not as burdened with secularism. I recently got my hair cut in “The Jehovah is My Witness” hair salon in Kenya. But they have a much more developed ability to integrate their spirituality into everyday life. And when I’m there, I really feel the lack of that. I’m pigeon-holing my life and trying to figure out what I say and in what language to different audiences. And I think in lots of ways, Africa is more developed in those ways than we are. They have lots of social problems and the West is trying to pour in a lot of money, and largely that money has not done what we hoped it would do. The real hope for Africa in a church setting, is what the members of the church do. We can’t impose solutions that worked in Salt Lake 150 years ago. It’s not the right thing for Africa. But Africans know the answers to those things. And a second reason that I have hope for Africa is they are incredibly family-oriented. Not just LDS people, but as a society. They worry about extended family. They take on the adoption of orphans. And there isn’t a woman there, well I can’t say this, but I witnessed African women bristle when somebody from the UN or somebody says “why did you have all these children? Wouldn’t it have been better if you didn’t have all these children?” They say no. These children are my heritage. And they get really resentful when people say that they should have limited their children with birth control.

Be it Utah, Brazil, China, Maryland, Ghana, etc., each cultural manifestation has room for improvement in implementing Gospel truths but those improvements need not be identical across all cultures.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, RevTestament said:

..............................................................

Yes, it is so. Europeans need to relearn history. N. Africa had large Christian sections long before Islam came along which were separate from Europe. When Islam came they conquered these people, and their Christian societies were destroyed. Christianity had had hundreds of years to spread into Africa. I am not talking about later European colonial Christianity. That came long after Islam. Your impression that the "golden age of Islam saved civilization" is also a probable fallacy. First of all the Christian societies of the Middle East were doing wonderfully before Islam came along and took over their peaceful societies. Muslims were smart enough to know they were ignorant, and rather than destroying everything these early Arabs enlisted the Christians as translators to translate all the texts of their large libraries into Arabic. Do you think the "Golden Age of Islam" came out of a void? No, of course it didn't. They absorbed the knowledge of the Persian Christian society, which before Islam was having its own Golden Age, and had peacefully converted most of Persia to Christianity. So no Islam did not save this society, but replaced it, and eventually enslaved it when the Ottoman Turks and Timurlane came along. 

You are confusing the golden age of Islam with the post-golden age (in which we still find ourselves), since you apparently do not understand the oscillatory nature of history.  At least you do understand how Islam managed to absorb all available knowledge and technology, later transferring it to Europe via Spain, before it fell into its own Dark Age -- which persists today.  You need to think consecutively.

4 hours ago, RevTestament said:

It is highly probable that Islam also caused the European Dark Age as they took control of Africa cutting off wheat supplies, and later took total control of the Mediterranean as well and purposefully shut down European shipping. History reveals the Muslims boasted about ships not being able to plow the waves. So all trade from the east was shut down by the Muslims - both land and sea. This is why the Europeans were desperate to find another route to India, and was the whole impetus for the voyages of Columbus. Nor did Islam share its technology with Europe. Europeans never learned the secret of Damascus steel from the Muslims, and always fought the Muslims in the crusades with a technological disadvantage.

The Vikings certainly discovered the secret of Damascus steel, and used it extensively.  If you knew history, you would already know that.

4 hours ago, RevTestament said:

You tell me how the Muslim Golden Age "saved" civilization when the Timurlane destroyed the great libraries of the east including the Muslim's own Baghdad library, and the Muslims were probably responsible for destroying the great library of Alexandria? I want to hear exactly what the Muslims did for Europe to "save" it? Indeed, Islam is responsible for bringing its own Golden Age to an end by creating the monster of Timurlane who destroyed the Middle Eastern Muslim civilization as well as the Christian one. The Ottomans enslaved European Christian boys, to become their armies, and girls to become their concubines. Nevertheless, this is not a point I was trying to make. I never said that the European form of colonial Christianity ever did Africa any good.................................

In the midst of playing the blame game, you are very selective in castigating Muslims and excusing so-called Christianity, ignoring the European penchant for feudal slavery of the peasantry during the Dark Ages, which had been preceded by thousands of years of European slavery (fully half the population of Athens and then Rome was slave).  Slavery has been the norm, and we have today more slaves in the Christian West than at any time in history.  There is nothing new under the sun, Rev, but we must give credit where it is due.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

The powerpoint speaks about financial blessings, doesnt it?

It does.  And I believe that there are many blessings that come from paying tithing that can impact our finances for the better.  That doesn't mean that the blessings themselves are always financial in nature.  Divine guidance, for example, towards a new job or new schooling or even new contacts in an industry can all have huge impacts on finances for the better.

Paying tithing allows us to approach God with confidence and ask for blessings and guidance that we otherwise would not have any right to ask for.  It also strengthens our faith, and faith is what brings miracles (even financial ones).  There are probably countless ways that paying tithing could help lead towards mobility out of poverty.

[RevTestament]

14 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I am not here to do a gotcha.

Well good. Maybe we will end up friends.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Do you consider yourself a slave to God? Although sometimes I feel that way, I realize he has given me a choice, and I chose, and I serve Him in love rather than out of fear or a sense of being forced to. That is a huge difference. Muslims have no personal relationship with Allah. Allah is not their father - that is shirk(unforgivable sin) to them. See Allah doesn't need man, but created man because he wanted servants. Our God is our Father who sent our brother to teach us how to be like Him. The difference is staggeringly huge. Our God loves us as He does Himself.

Yes there certainly is a choice, but once that choice is made, it is "thy will be done".  I do see the difference you speak of, but He is still my Master. 

[Meerkat]

On 6/13/2017 at 1:36 PM, stemelbow said:

1.  It's interesting that this shows the smaller the unit the higher the level of attendance.  makes ya wonder of the wisdom the Church has taken to make units larger and cutting some units as a result. 

5.  The Gospel Culture needs to supersede local culture feels offensive to me.                

6.  Helping members rise from poverty through the  payment of tithes and offerings and the application  of self­ reliance principles. 

not sure I can get on board with the, "well we know they are in poverty, but if we can get them pay tithes and offerings there'll get out of poverty" type of stuff.  Sounds like the goal is to get them out of poverty so the Church can make more off of them.

1.  Regarding smaller units, I believe this effect depends upon the culture.  Back in the 80's, the Church went more to the smaller units for the sake of increasing activity, callings, missionary work, etc.  It worked well at a time when the culture didn't require two incomes and the stresses that come with two parents working outside the home.  My opinion is that as work, multiple callings in the smaller units, and stressful changes in the culture impacted the family, the Church consolidated and moved back toward larger units in the US.  But the smaller units are probably great for Africa at this time.

5.  Regarding Gospel superseding local culture, the University of Alaska Fairbanks did a study on the Eskimo around Bering Strait.  "It is a common custom for two men living in different villages to agree to become bond-fellows or brothers by adoption.  Having made this arrangement, whenever one of the two men goes to the other's village he is received as the bond brother's guest and is given the use of his host's bed with his wife during his stay.  When the visit is returned the same favor is extended the other, consequently neither family knows who is the father of the children... but the children know each other by a special term and the two men also separate out their relationship and mark it with a unique term."  This illustrates a significant divide between some local customs and living the Gospel.  Mosiah 27:25 solves this problem that some may find offensive: "And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, ye, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters: And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God."  Is this not what happens when a person experiences this mighty change of heart?  

6.  Regarding tithing harming the poor, many of us who gratefully pay tithing can testify that the miracle of tithing is what helped lift us out of poverty.  10% of $1.00 is ten cents.  Tithing is not a regressive tax.  The Widow's Mite illustrates the desire with which many of us who pay tithing do it: "And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.  And he (Jesus) called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living."  (Mark 12:42-44) That is what tithing is like for me today.  I am so grateful to pay it.  In fact there is nothing you could do to persuade me not to pay tithing due to the benefits I gain.  What are the benefits?  The Lord through the prophet Malachi, said this regarding tithing: "...prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."  I have proved it, and that is exactly what happens. It's not because God needs the money, mankind needs the blessings.  Another benefit is that when we pray, we can pray with strong faith because we have done what God asked of us.  That's how tithing can help people in any part of the world rise from poverty.  May I boldly state that tithing is a principle with a promise that can be duplicated.  "...prove me now herewith...!"

Edited June 14, 2017 by Meerkat
Correct typo

[clarkgoble]

22 hours ago, stemelbow said:

5.  The Gospel Culture needs to supersede local culture feels offensive to me. 

Most of us I suspect feel that's as true here as it is in any other country. That's a common theme in the NT as well.

[CV75]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I dont' seek blessings for doing such, so I couldn't tell you.  I haven't really made space in my head to think of it that way. 

I'm not asking whether or that you seek blessings. I'm asking what you have found the blessings to be. If blessing is too strong a word, what is the utility or rationale for your paying tithe and offerings, and applying the principles of self-reliance? Surely you can make space in your head to relate to the question and compute a response!

[RevTestament]

8 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You are confusing the golden age of Islam with the post-golden age (in which we still find ourselves), since you apparently do not understand the oscillatory nature of history.  At least you do understand how Islam managed to absorb all available knowledge and technology, later transferring it to Europe via Spain, before it fell into its own Dark Age -- which persists today.  You need to think consecutively.

If you are inferring that Islam will have another golden age due to the oscillatory nature of history, I think not. Most of the lost tribes of Israel have been absorbed into the Islamic nations, and will come out of Islam to defeat it, but I believe Revelation tells us the great army Islam will put together will fall. What allowed Europe to recover from its dark ages was not the Islamic presence in Spain, but the fall of the Islamic Golden Age. This released its grip on trade from the East until the Ottoman Empire rose. You have not proven your contention that Islam had anything to do with saving civilization. The Persian Civilization in the east probably would have survived just fine without Islam as well as that in Europe since it was Islam which caused both to fail. Then there was Indian and Chinese civilization which were largely unaffected. Nor have you shown how Islam had anything to do with Europe's recovery other than temporarily weakening to allow trade to flow again.

Quote

The Vikings certainly discovered the secret of Damascus steel, and used it extensively.  If you knew history, you would already know that.

Ouch. Wow... but you are technically incorrect. The Ulfberht was technically not Damascus steel. Damascus steel was cooled slower. No one really knows for sure how the Vikings got ahold of crucible steel, but it was probably through the Volga trade route into Iran. Nor was it a secret shared with the rest of Europe which is why the Crusaders found themselves outmatched by the Damascus swords of the Muslims. So your point has nothing to do with Islamic civilization saving Europe. Europe couldn't make anything similar for hundreds of more years because the Muslims did not share their secret technology.

Quote

In the midst of playing the blame game, you are very selective in castigating Muslims and excusing so-called Christianity, ignoring the European penchant for feudal slavery of the peasantry during the Dark Ages, which had been preceded by thousands of years of European slavery (fully half the population of Athens and then Rome was slave).  Slavery has been the norm, and we have today more slaves in the Christian West than at any time in history.  There is nothing new under the sun, Rev, but we must give credit where it is due.

I have repeatedly said on this thread that the European gentiles learned slavery from the Roman Empire. In fact the word slavery comes from their enslavement of the Slavic people - but you probably know that. You are completely ignoring my point of who introduced slavery into Africa(besides Egypt), and that was Islam rather than Christianity, so I am placing the blame in the right place where I brought it up. Most of the Islamic male slaves didn't survive their slavery so aren't here to attest to the world about it. They were routinely castrated by their Muslim captors - often dying from it. Nevertheless, they could no longer reproduce and so their descendants are not around today. The women were essentially used to breed their armies, so their descendants also are not around today to attest to it. In Islam Arabic slaves could go free, but other ethnic groups were routinely passed off through inheritance laws to be slaves forever. Anyway my point was with regards to slavery in Africa. The Europeans got their slaves from the Muslim slave traders who were long established in Africa. Do not mislead Africans into believing that the slave trade there was introduced by Europeans.

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, juliann said:

If you are truly embarrassed for someone, it means you have empathy and concern. Otherwise it is just another thinly disguised cheap shot, HJ. You guys come here to condemn a church that the Mormons on this Mormon board love, despite it flaws...and there are many.

Sometimes turnabout is fair play. And sometimes that is the only way to get a point across to those who consider themselves and therefore everyone else a victim of an institution they have rejected. Something that is considered intelligent, making those who disagree, unintelligent. This refrain is played over and over. We are supposed to remain understanding and compliant and listen attentively and respectfully as we, our culture, our families and friends are derided and demeaned.  

You have places where you can do all this to an appreciative audience. We are all stymied why you not only come here but expect us to also react with appreciation. We continue to have this conversation. The critics continue to behave in the same way with the same expectations.  BD's has had to point out how many of us liked her post. Still no comprehension that just maybe it is you critics who need to modify your behavior in somebody else's house. 

What a great discussion this could be. How enlightening it would be to join together to bring together credible information. But what you offer us is a ridiculous reaction to one line in a leaked power point, this time broadening the criticism to involve our brown skinned brothers and sisters. It is a step too far. Pull it back. 

What about when you are critical over the treatment of women in the church? Or the way polygamy was lived? I may be sticking my foot in my mouth, but haven't you been somewhat critical of things like that in the church? Stemelbow has issues with something, you have issues, and others as well. I can name a few very faithful members that have mentioned things on this board that don't put the church in the perfect light, or the church's members. 

It hurts when members of the board such as myself and others get the swift kick for stating our feeilings about something we don't like about the church and then getting treated like we're the scum of the earth. I believe we have the right just as much as others. Sometimes criticisms help institutions, why does the church get feedback by putting out surveys?

It's the way you say things Juliann. Just as we're told it's the way we say things that are against the church, even when it's true. Think about it.  ETA: Maybe scum is too harsh, but it's how I feel sometimes. I think it matters who is saying something, not always what is being said on this board, and maybe we need to quit that.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Tacenda

[juliann]

5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

 

What people like you don't seem to realize is that you push people further away. Your rudeness, accusations, and acrimonious approach to defending your faith only demonstrates your weakness and what some would consider a weakness of the faith. Does faith lead to that kind of acrimony? I don't think so, but you sure make it look unattractive. You are an anti-missionary, even if that is opposite of your intent.  

Call me all the names you want, accuse me of all the misdeeds you can summon. But you are still here to criticize what I believe, what I support, and what I value.. You had nothing kind to say about Mormons in fear of their lives on an airplane singing a Mormon song. It disgusted you. And you made a special trip to our Mormon board to rip on two sister missionaries and then threw out the same lame stuff about how abused you were when we objected to your offensive behavior. You blamed us for being rude and acrimonious while you were on another board trashing us and bemoaning how we needed to be instructed and shown the truth. Rinse, wash, and repeat. Correction: This was done by the poster you are defending.

This behavior and your demands that we uphold standards that you don't just can't get anymore bizarre. I realize it is totally frustrating you to no end that we don't obey you, that you can't shame us, and that we don't like what you and your cohorts want to subject us to. You guys are in complete total absolute denial. All you have to do is track those blue banners with the hearts on it and see which comments are getting the most likes, for cryin' out loud. It's not yours. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by juliann

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Nofear said:

The comment about gospel and culture brought Sharon Eubank's comments to mind.

and

Be it Utah, Brazil, China, Maryland, Ghana, etc., each cultural manifestation has room for improvement in implementing Gospel truths but those improvements need not be identical across all cultures.

Very good post Nofear, thanks!

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Meerkat said:

1.  Regarding smaller units, I believe this effect depends upon the culture.  Back in the 80's, the Church went more to the smaller units for the sake of increasing activity, callings, missionary work, etc.  It worked well at a time when the culture didn't require two incomes and the stresses that come with two parents working outside the home.  My opinion is that as work, multiple callings in the smaller units, and stressful changes in the culture impacted the family, the Church consolidated and moved back toward larger units in the US.  But the smaller units are probably great for Africa at this time.

5.  Regarding Gospel superseding local culture, the University of Alaska Fairbanks did a study on the Eskimo around Bering Strait.  "It is a common custom for two men living in different villages to agree to become bond-fellows or brothers by adoption.  Having made this arrangement, whenever one of the two men goes to the other's village he is received as the bond brother's guest and is given the use of his host's bed with his wife during his stay.  When the visit is returned the same favor is extended the other, consequently neither family knows who is the father of the children... but the children know each other by a special term and the two men also separate out their relationship and mark it with a unique term."  This illustrates a significant divide between some local customs and living the Gospel.  Mosiah 27:25 solves this problem that some may find offensive: "And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, ye, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters: And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God."  Is this not what happens when a person experiences this mighty change of heart?  

6.  Regarding tithing harming the poor, many of us who gratefully pay tithing can testify that the miracle of tithing is what helped lift us out of poverty.  10% of $1.00 is ten cents.  Tithing is not a regressive tax.  The Widow's Mite illustrates the desire with which many of us who pay tithing do it: "And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.  And he (Jesus) called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living."  (Mark 12:42-44) That is what tithing is like for me today.  I am so grateful to pay it.  In fact there is nothing you could do to persuade me not to pay tithing due to the benefits I gain.  What are the benefits?  The Lord through the prophet Malachi, said this regarding tithing: "...prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."  I have proved it, and that is exactly what happens. It's not because God needs the money, mankind needs the blessings.  Another benefit is that when we pray, we can pray with strong faith because we have done what God asked of us.  That's how tithing can help people in any part of the world rise from poverty.  May I boldly state that tithing is a principle with a promise that can be duplicated.  "...prove me now herewith...!"

I look at tithing differently now since my faith crisis. I don't like the way the church spends the money, I know most of it comes from investing, but still wish the money spent on temples, advertising etc. weren't so lavish. I know of members in the church in other countries that are going hungry. I wish the church would spend more of it's wealth on the poor and needy. My tithing is now spent on charities or on individuals that need help that I know. That way I know my money isn't spent on expenses that are insane like for instance a $1,600 vase (this really happened) for the temple. God doesn't care about material things IMO. 

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, juliann said:

Call me all the names you want, accuse me of all the misdeeds you can summon. But you are still here to criticize what I believe, what I support, and what I value.. You had nothing kind to say about Mormons in fear of their lives on an airplane singing a Mormon song. It disgusted you. And you made a special trip to our Mormon board to rip on two sister missionaries and then threw out the same lame stuff about how abused you were when we objected to your offensive behavior. You blamed us for being rude and acrimonious while you were on another board trashing us and bemoaning how we needed to be instructed and shown the truth. Rinse, wash, and repeat.

This behavior and your demands that we uphold standards that you don't just can't get anymore bizarre. I realize it is totally frustrating you to no end that we don't obey you, that you can't shame us, and that we don't like what you and your cohorts want to subject us to. You guys are in complete total absolute denial. All you have to do is track those blue banners with the hearts on it and see which comments are getting the most likes, for cryin' out loud. It's not yours. 

The quote says that you are responding to HappyJackWagon, but your post seems like you mean this for Johnnycakes.  Is that right?

[juliann]

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I don't see this need to create sides, Juliann.  I think we all criticize and we all defend things and ideas.  There are no sides in this.  We are just people talking, trying to get somewhere with our thoughts.  I'd much prefer we approach this as a we're all in this together way and we avoid the really hostile atmosphere that crops up from time to time. 

I love the Church and thus my criticisms are many.  When I offer a critique of a powerpoint, I mean no harm to the Church.  The powerpoint is not even said to be sanctioned by the Church itself.  For all we know some random employee threw it together in sloppy haste.  Whatever the case, for my critiques this thread took a really unhealthy direction.  It's a shame.  It makes me wonder if some here have any desire to be respectful to others.  It certainly doesn't feel like it. 

 

More denial.  How many more posters have to object for you to even consider that you created the problem with an OP dedicated to a petty slam against the church and its members? 

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The quote says that you are responding to HappyJackWagon, but your post seems like you mean this for Johnnycakes.  Is that right?

Oops, your are correct. They tag team so to be honest, they kind of blend together for me. 

[Jeanne]

43 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I look at tithing differently. now since my faith crisis. I don't like the way the church spends the money, I know most of it comes from investing, but still wish the money spent on temples, advertising etc. weren't so lavish. I know of members in the church in other countries that are going hungry. I wish the church would spend more of it's wealth on the poor and needy. My tithing is now spent on charities or on individuals that need help that I know. That way I know my money isn't spent on expenses that are insane like for instance a $1,600 vase (this really happened) for the temple. God doesn't care about material things IMO. 

amen

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

Call me all the names you want, accuse me of all the misdeeds you can summon. But you are still here to criticize what I believe, what I support, and what I value.. You had nothing kind to say about Mormons in fear of their lives on an airplane singing a Mormon song. It disgusted you. And you made a special trip to our Mormon board to rip on two sister missionaries and then threw out the same lame stuff about how abused you were when we objected to your offensive behavior. You blamed us for being rude and acrimonious while you were on another board trashing us and bemoaning how we needed to be instructed and shown the truth. Rinse, wash, and repeat. Correction: This was done by the poster you are defending.

I think that HJW was defending Stem here, not Johnnie Cake (from what I've seen on this thread).

Edited June 14, 2017 by JulieM

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I know of members in the church in other countries that are going hungry.

You personally know of these members? Please send me a personal message with their names and details, and I will contact their branch presidents/bishops and find out what's gone wrong.

[Gray]

11 hours ago, CV75 said:

Realistically, you're simply not understanding the math and/or the full picture, or applying the math to the full picture. Take a remedial course!

90%I < 100%I

The math doesn't get more basic than that.

[Gray]

11 hours ago, CV75 said:

Item #5, “Helping members rise from poverty through the payment of tithes and offerings and the application of self-reliance principles.”

Your selectivity betrays a sloppy mental outlook by equating the “rise from poverty” with “becoming wealthier” (i.e. rising from prosperity to having even greater surplus of money, resources, or assets), and by disregarding “the application of self-reliance principles” and focusing solely on “tithes and offerings.” This is being far from realistic.

What is the connection between self-reliance and paying tithing?