Leaks about Africa

[stemelbow]

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/index.php?title=File:Africa_West_Area_Overview.pdf

 

Here is a leak regarding West Africa. 

A couple of observations:

1.  It's interesting that this shows the smaller the unit the higher the level of attendance.  makes ya wonder of the wisdom the Church has taken to make units larger and cutting some units as a result. 

2.  The number of convert baptisms has grown by more than 200%, well at least from 2010 to 2015. 

3.  While the Church added 24,000 converts in 2015, the number of people attending sacrament increased in that year by 10,000--a ration of 2.4 baptisms gains us 1 member, roughly put.

4.   Jesus is presented as being white in West Africa. 

5.  The Gospel Culture needs to supersede local culture feels offensive to me. 
               

6.  Helping members rise from poverty through the  payment of tithes and offerings and the application  of self­ reliance principles. 

not sure I can get on board with the, "well we know they are in poverty, but if we can get them pay tithes and offerings there'll get out of poverty" type of stuff.  Sounds like the goal is to get them out of poverty so the Church can make more off of them.

Anyway, thoughts?

Edited June 14, 2017 by stemelbow

[SeekingUnderstanding]

9 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

 

5.  The Gospel Culture needs to supersede local culture feels offensive to me. 
               

Which seemed offensive? Equality in marriage? Encouraging servant leadership and ministering to the one? Or true conversion and service?

[Pete Ahlstrom]

14 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/index.php?title=File:Africa_West_Area_Overview.pdf

 

Here is a leak regarding West Africa. 

A couple of observations:

1.  It's interesting that this shows the smaller the unit the higher the level of attendance.  makes ya wonder of the wisdom the Church has taken to make units larger and cutting some units as a result. 

2.  The number of convert baptisms has grown by more than 200%, well at least from 2010 to 2015. 

3.  While the Church added 24,000 converts in 2015, the number of people attending sacrament increased in that year by 10,000--a ration of 2.4 baptisms gains us 1 member, roughly put.

4.   Jesus is presented as being white in West Africa. 

5.  The Gospel Culture needs to supersede local culture feels offensive to me. 
               

6.  Helping members rise from poverty through the  payment of tithes and offerings and the application  of self­ reliance principles. 

not sure I can get on board with the, "well we know they are in poverty, but if we can get them pay tithes and offerings there'll get out of poverty" type of stuff.  Sounds like the goal is to get them out of poverty so the Church can make more off of them.

Anyway, thoughts?

I think cultural transformation is inevitable and unavoidable with joining any group. There are always going to be local customs that clash with mormonism or any new group from outside the local culture.

[CV75]

22 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

6.  Helping members rise from poverty through the  payment of tithes and offerings and the application  of self­ reliance principles.

I can comment of this principle when properly lived: When I was a bishop long ago, in virtually every instance that I required those requesting assistance to pay tithe, they did not return for more assistance and our ward fast offerings exceeded our fast offering expenses. And they all kept coming to Church.

[RevTestament]

4 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/index.php?title=File:Africa_West_Area_Overview.pdf

 

Here is a leak regarding West Africa. 

A couple of observations:

1.  It's interesting that this shows the smaller the unit the higher the level of attendance.  makes ya wonder of the wisdom the Church has taken to make units larger and cutting some units as a result. 

2.  The number of convert baptisms has grown by more than 200%, well at least from 2010 to 2015. 

3.  While the Church added 24,000 converts in 2015, the number of people attending sacrament increased in that year by 10,000--a ration of 2.4 baptisms gains us 1 member, roughly put.

4.   Jesus is presented as being white in West Africa. 

5.  The Gospel Culture needs to supersede local culture feels offensive to me. 
               

6.  Helping members rise from poverty through the  payment of tithes and offerings and the application  of self­ reliance principles. 

not sure I can get on board with the, "well we know they are in poverty, but if we can get them pay tithes and offerings there'll get out of poverty" type of stuff.  Sounds like the goal is to get them out of poverty so the Church can make more off of them.

That seems very cynical even for  you. The Church has always taken the view that the Lord will financially bless the tithe giver. The Church sees that principle as part of the basic gospel message. I'm not sure I totally agree with it, but I believe most members do, and in fact I believe most members are so blessed. You are like saying Jesus was encouraging the old widow to enrich the priests at her expense. Yet, Jesus said she was blessed. Either one accepts the principle of tithing or one doesn't. Perhaps these new converts are willing to tithe because they see what the gospel is doing in the lives of their friends. The Church has also always emphasized the gospel culture sometimes at the cost of personal jobs, etc. And all the sudden that is offensive to you? Is that because you as a "privileged white guy" must presume God won't bless them?

Africa once had large, prosperous Christian societies. All that changed when Islam took over and destroyed these societies, and plunged these people back into medieval 7th century Arabian society, and brought massive slavery to Africa. It was these slave traders who were responsible for the slaves being sold to the Portugese, Spanish, and English in the Americas. Stop being "offended" by Christianity helping people, and learn why they need help in the first place. If they want to accept the gospel, that is a completely voluntary change in their lives and culture rather than the Islamic culture which was forced upon them, and has largely left Africa a poor, divided and forelorn place. They don't want your pity of your feeling offended for them. They are capable of pulling themselves out of the chains which have held them bound for centuries with a little help from the gospel and the Lord.

[juliann]

34 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

 

not sure I can get on board with the, "well we know they are in poverty, but if we can get them pay tithes and offerings there'll get out of poverty" type of stuff.  Sounds like the goal is to get them out of poverty so the Church can make more off of them.

Anyway, thoughts?

Please include a detailed account of how members (and nonmembers) are benefited.. You can begin with immunizations. How about the Perpetual Education Fund? Or the new Pathway program? Heck, even prosthetics. Do you understand the part about self-reliance? Or elevating the status of women? Or do you not consider that a worthy project? 

When do we reach the point where those who scorn rather than support Mormonism are going to be accused of hiding the truth? 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

5.  The Gospel Culture needs to supersede local culture feels offensive to me. 

If a person chooses to adopt a new culture/tradition (such as equality in marriage etc.) out of their own free-will and choice, who am I to be offended for them?  It feels offensive, patronizing/condescending to me that you think they are incapable of making good decisions in the traditions that they choose to adopt, as if they need your protection.

[juliann]

20 minutes ago, pogi said:

If a person chooses to adopt a new culture/tradition (such as equality in marriage etc.) out of their own free-will and choice, who am I to be offended for them?  It feels offensive, patronizing/condescending to me that you think they are incapable of making good decisions in the traditions that they choose to adopt, as if they need your protection.

It is very tasteless and patronizing (I'm trying to avoid the R word) and it needs to stop now there is yet another thread. At least the Church is setting up programs to give assistance where it is accepted. They don't just hang around and talk trash about those who have less economic benefits than we do. 

[stemelbow]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Which seemed offensive? Equality in marriage? Encouraging servant leadership and ministering to the one? Or true conversion and service?

Wording it as superseding a culture rather than accepting culture as it adds to good in the church.  There is plenty of good from each ciulture in the world.  The church should embrace rather than supersede

[stemelbow]

2 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I think cultural transformation is inevitable and unavoidable with joining any group. There are always going to be local customs that clash with mormonism or any new group from outside the local culture.

There are inevitable changes sure

[bluebell]

Just now, stemelbow said:

Wording it as superseding a culture rather than accepting culture as it adds to good in the church.  There is plenty of good from each ciulture in the world.  The church should embrace rather than supersede

There are some parts of each culture that no one should embrace, the church included, though.

[stemelbow]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

Please include a detailed account of how members (and nonmembers) are benefited.. You can begin with immunizations. How about the Perpetual Education Fund? Or the new Pathway program? Heck, even prosthetics. Do you understand the part about self-reliance? Or elevating the status of women? Or do you not consider that a worthy project? 

When do we reach the point where those who scorn rather than support Mormonism are going to be accused of hiding the truth? 

I'm commenting on the linked information.  I'm not seeing all that you listed.  

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

There are some parts of each culture that no one should embrace, the church included, though.

I'm ok with that.  But superseding local culture suggests there's nothing from the local culture to embrace.  I find it terribly worded because of that

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

If a person chooses to adopt a new culture/tradition (such as equality in marriage etc.) out of their own free-will and choice, who am I to be offended for them?  It feels offensive, patronizing/condescending to me that you think they are incapable of making good decisions in the traditions that they choose to adopt, as if they need your protection.

I didn't say that nor suggest anything near that, pogi

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm ok with that.  But superseding local culture suggests there's nothing from the local culture to embrace.  I find it terribly worded because of that

From my perspective, that they listed the exact traditions they were speaking about shows that they weren't expressing an 'all or nothing' approach to local culture.  I get what you are saying though.

[juliann]

16 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm commenting on the linked information.  I'm not seeing all that you listed.  

Exactly. And you feel no responsibility to give the complete story before jumping to an ugly smear. 

You dodged my question. Do you not consider the goals mentioned in the only link you are willing to look at a good thing? Or are elevating the status of women and promoting self-reliance merely subversive methods to squeeze more money out of Africans who you think are easily duped?

Edited June 13, 2017 by juliann

[stemelbow]

43 minutes ago, bluebell said:

From my perspective, that they listed the exact traditions they were speaking about shows that they weren't expressing an 'all or nothing' approach to local culture.  I get what you are saying though.

My comment was directed at the wording of that title--superseding local culture.  TO be clear, there was nothing in there that said the Church should embrace any of their culture, but that it should be superseded. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by stemelbow

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, juliann said:

Exactly. And you feel no responsibility to give the complete story before jumping to an ugly smear. 

You dodged my question. Do you not consider the goals mentioned in the only link you are willing to look at a good thing? Or is elevating the status of women and self-reliance subversive methods to squeeze more money out of Africans who you think are easily duped?

I don't think anyone is easily duped.  I didn't say that.  Your question feels loaded on such grounds.  I don't even know how to use pack it since it is goign way off topic, in my estimation.  But I surely appreciate your contribution

[juliann]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

I don't think anyone is easily duped.  I didn't say that.  Your question feels loaded on such grounds.  I don't even know how to use pack it since it is goign way off topic, in my estimation.  But I surely appreciate your contribution

You said that the church is only assisting them so that it "can make more off of them." In other words, scamming them. That makes them dupes by any definition. Or would it be more accurate to say that you instead meant they are stupid for going along with it?

I'm puzzled why you think your own words are way off topic. 

[Gray]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

I can comment of this principle when properly lived: When I was a bishop long ago, in virtually every instance that I required those requesting assistance to pay tithe, they did not return for more assistance and our ward fast offerings exceeded our fast offering expenses. And they all kept coming to Church.

Just as Christian Scientists don't believe in modern medicine, many Mormons seem not to believe in math. The result of people paying tithing is that they have roughly 10% less income. Paying tithing doesn't increase income for anyone but the church itself.

I don't say that to be offensive, I'm just trying to be realistic. I know full well that Latter-day Saints aren't the only Christians who believe this way.

[stemelbow]

31 minutes ago, juliann said:

You said that the church is only assisting them so that it "can make more off of them." In other words, scamming them. That makes them dupes by any definition. Or would it be more accurate to say that you instead meant they are stupid for going along with it?

I'm puzzled why you think your own words are way off topic. 

No, I critiqued the way it came off--"it sounds like..."  I did not say "the church is only assisting them so it can..." as you are trying to say I said.  There's a pretty clear difference, at least it seems to me.  And commenting on the way it sounds, does not in any way say anything about anyone being dupes. 

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by stemelbow

[juliann]

9 minutes ago, Gray said:

Just as Christian Scientists don't believe in modern medicine, many Mormons seem not to believe in math. The result of people paying tithing is that they have roughly 10% less income. Paying tithing doesn't increase income for anyone but the church itself.

I don't say that to be offensive, I'm just trying to be realistic. I know full well that Latter-day Saints aren't the only Christians who believe this way.

But again, there are benefits even removing the spiritual element. It is rather like those who don't think they are getting anything for their taxes. Even if they don't directly benefit you, it benefits others.  I wish so many didn't make tithing a cash in cash out exchange. It also operates as insurance, in a way. I know that I have a score of people at the ready should I need help...up to making house payments. I haven't ever needed that, beyond fixing a fence and a funeral, but I'm glad that what I pay goes towards a brother or sister who has needed it. 

[juliann]

10 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

No, I critiqued the way it came off--"it sounds like..."  I did not say "the church is only assisting them so it can..." as you are trying to say I said.  There's a pretty clear difference, at least it seems to me.  And commenting on the way it sounds, does not in any way say anything about anyone being dupes.  And going up regarding what another has said, saying it sounds like does not in any way say paying tithing is not something that can reap benefits for he/she who pays. 

 

 

 

Then you won't mind if I say it sounds like you are a sexual predator? I mean, that does not in any way say anything about anybody being a deviant.....  

You are not going to be able to clean it up, Stem. We are in an era where it just doesn't come off right for rich American white folk to be speaking for poor African black folk halfway around the world. Even LDS.org has the good sense to have Africans speaking for themselves even though you probably consider them to be fooled as well. The only way to make Mormonism evil is to haul out the captivity tales which is pretty much what you heading right into. 

You are not going to be able to twist out of this. Maybe just maybe, it really is time for critics to start providing the whole truth about what they take potshots at day in and day out. Maybe just maybe it is time for an obligation to provide documentation and sources behind those quick and dirty daily potshots. 

[Judd]

27 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

No, I critiqued the way it came off--"it sounds like..."  I did not say "the church is only assisting them so it can..." as you are trying to say I said.  There's a pretty clear difference, at least it seems to me.  And commenting on the way it sounds, does not in any way say anything about anyone being dupes.  And going up regarding what another has said, saying it sounds like does not in any way say paying tithing is not something that can reap benefits for he/she who pays. 

 

 

 

So if I'm hearing you correctly, you're curious about the short phrase regarding gospel culture superseding local culture as applying too broadly (and/or not in a reciprocated fashion), despite clear examples of what that statement was referring to, but when asked about the implications of your own statements (and without any accompanying clarity such as was provided specifically in above scenario about culture), you're concerned more of the semantics stating that you only said that it sounds like they have ulterior motives for tithing rather than saying simply they have ulterior motives for tithing. These two scenarios seem to have two drastically different standards being applied for how to interpret their meanings.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Judd

[RevTestament]

7 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Wording it as superseding a culture rather than accepting culture as it adds to good in the church.  There is plenty of good from each ciulture in the world.  The church should embrace rather than supersede

Did the Church wipe out Polynesian culture? If you listen to the Maori that is not the way they tell it. They say the Church missionaries were the one Christian people who came and lived among them like one of them. All the Polynesian members I have met are very thankful for the Church, and are some of the most devoted and beautiful people I have ever run across. Many of them came to Utah to be closer to the Church at great cost to themselves. Yet, the Lord blesses them and their hard work, and industriousness. They hold a deep passion for the gospel like I don't see elsewhere. My Brazilian sister-in-law also holds a deep love for the Church. She has taught Gospel Doctrine and is very devoted to the gospel. She and my brother-in-law are among the happiest members of my wife's family I can think of (with the possible exception of my wife and I). Almost all the Church members in Brazil are converts from Catholicism. Listening to her who do you think tried to supersede her culture? The LDS or the Catholics? You can't seem to get over this idea you seem to have that Africans are some primitive culture that needs protection from the Church in order to survive. This is the point I and several others have brought up with you, and you still don't seem to get it. Changing to the Christian God and worship does not mean giving up one's whole culture - unless maybe it is a head-hunter culture. Americans still have their culture, Brazilian members still have their culture, and Polynesians their culture. Give up this idea of yours. It is pretentious(I won't go so far as to say offensive.)