Leaks about Africa

[Garden Girl]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

I can comment of this principle when properly lived: When I was a bishop long ago, in virtually every instance that I required those requesting assistance to pay tithe, they did not return for more assistance and our ward fast offerings exceeded our fast offering expenses. And they all kept coming to Church.

In regard to tithing... I reactivated after many years of being away from Church (and 3 years prior to my non-LDS husband's unexpected death). From the time I reactivated, I paid tithing on my retirement pension only.  I continued to faithfully pay my full tithes and offerings after his death even though sometimes I struggled since my income available had been cut substantially.  I received many blessings of various types, including never having to go back to work during 27 years of retirement, but being able to be self sustaining and comfortable in my retirement.  I'm 76 years old, widowed for 19 years, own my home outright (and everything else), and am essentially debt free... looking back over the years, I realize I can't afford not to pay tithing.  Brings to mind something about the promise of  "the windows of heaven."

from the beach on a lovely June evening... GG

[bluebell]

43 minutes ago, Gray said:

Just as Christian Scientists don't believe in modern medicine, many Mormons seem not to believe in math. The result of people paying tithing is that they have roughly 10% less income. Paying tithing doesn't increase income for anyone but the church itself.

I don't say that to be offensive, I'm just trying to be realistic. I know full well that Latter-day Saints aren't the only Christians who believe this way.

You can't say that people paying tithing always have 10% less than they started with unless you also deny that God can and does intervene, sometimes financially, on behalf of those people who pay tithing.

Is that something that you feel comfortable denying?  

Tithing isn't a matter of math as much as it's a matter of faith and making room for the miracle.  

[stemelbow]

9 minutes ago, juliann said:

Then you won't mind if I say it sounds like you are a sexual predator? I mean, that does not in any way say anything about anybody being a deviant.....  

What did I say that makes you think I sound like I'm a sexual predator?  I feel like your reasoning has gone off the deep end, here Juliann.  Is this really in the realm of reasonable and civil discourse?

 

9 minutes ago, juliann said:

You are not going to be able to clean it up, Stem. We are in an era where it just doesn't come off right for rich American white folk to be speaking for poor African black folk halfway around the world.

Where did I speak for "poor African black folk halfway around the world"?  All I did was offer a few points, some critiquing the content and wording of the powerpoint. 

9 minutes ago, juliann said:

 

Even LDS.org has the good sense to have Africans speaking for themselves even though you probably consider them to be fooled as well.

What do you mean "as well"?  Who do you think I think is fooled in any sense in all of this?

9 minutes ago, juliann said:

The only way to make Mormonism evil is to haul out the captivity tales which is pretty much what you heading right into. 

I think you're being sensational in this, arguing against things I did not say, anticipating what you want someone who opposes the Church to say.  I don't think at all like you think I do, it seems. 

9 minutes ago, juliann said:

You are not going to be able to twist out of this. Maybe just maybe, it really is time for critics to start providing the whole truth about what they take potshots at day in and day out. Maybe just maybe it is time for an obligation to provide documentation and sources behind those quick and dirty daily potshots. 

I didn't like the way it was worded wherein it says "Establishing a gospel culture that supersedes local cultures".  I didn't like how at the end it says very little about helping members rise out of poverty other than saying "Helping members rise from poverty through the  payment of tithes and offerings and the application  of self­ reliance principles."  I think the powerpoint would have been better off if instead it said something about superseding local cultures it said something more along the lines of, "embracing from local cultures that which is edifying and finding a way to insert some important gospel culture".  and instead of saying church members are helped getting out of poverty by having them pay and apply self reliance, I'd like to see something more like, "together we can help contribute to the difficulties of poverty in these areas by working together in establishing principles of self-reliance".

ANyway, that's my take.  I suppose you can run off on any sort of personal criticism you want, trying to read into what I say all you want. 

[stemelbow]

24 minutes ago, Judd said:

So if I'm hearing you correctly, you're curious about the short phrase regarding gospel culture superseding local culture as applying too broadly (and/or not in a reciprocated fashion), despite clear examples of what that statement was referring to, but when asked about the implications of your own statements (and without any accompanying clarity such as was provided specifically in above scenario about culture), you're concerned more of the semantics stating that you only said that it sounds like they have ulterior motives for tithing rather than saying simply they have ulterior motives for tithing. These two scenarios seem to have two drastically different standards being applied for how to interpret their meanings.

I honestly don't understand your concern.  I said the phrase about paying tithing and helping out of poverty sounds problematic.  I said why.  SOme here have tried to twist what I said into something I did not say.  On the other point, yes, I do think saying local cultures should be superseded is problematic.  I see the things they want to add, but that does not necessarily supersede.  The wording on the top of those two slides is problematic in my mind, so much so I said it feels offensive.   

There's not much to interpret here.  I said what I said.  SOme have, in my estimation, misread me and have, with that, added to my words that which I did not say.  Thanks for the reply

[Pete Ahlstrom]

59 minutes ago, Gray said:

Just as Christian Scientists don't believe in modern medicine, many Mormons seem not to believe in math. The result of people paying tithing is that they have roughly 10% less income. Paying tithing doesn't increase income for anyone but the church itself.

I don't say that to be offensive, I'm just trying to be realistic. I know full well that Latter-day Saints aren't the only Christians who believe this way.

I've always had a problem with this. It seems so obvious that paying 10% to the church won't make you richer. I always thought it was a sacrifice.

[juliann]

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

What did I say that makes you think I sound like I'm a sexual predator?  I feel like your reasoning has gone off the deep end, here Juliann.  Is this really in the realm of reasonable and civil discourse?

 

I simply did what you did, applying negative behavior to you like you do to us. I can't believe I have to explain that to you.  But you still see no connection. I really don't understand why critics are so insistent that their behavior is pure and undefiled no matter how many times they are told it is offensive to the listener. 

[stemelbow]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You can't say that people paying tithing always have 10% less than they started with unless you also deny that God can and does intervene, sometimes financially, on behalf of those people who pay tithing.

Is that something that you feel comfortable denying?  

Tithing isn't a matter of math as much as it's a matter of faith and making room for the miracle.  

To be true, God can intervene in the financial situations for those who do not pay tithing too.  So if one pays tithing and gets some unexpected financial blessing, it is possible that unexpected financial blessing could have come if the person did not pay tithing.  In other words you can challenge Gray and say he does not know if God intervened or not, because of paying tithing, but in like manner you don't know if a blessing might come with or without one paying tithing.  But what we do know sans unexpected financial blessings that come when one pays tithing or not, when someone gives away 10% of their increase, they are left with 10% less than they did have. 

I think Gray is correct.  I don't think your critique a good one. 

[USU78]

4 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Which seemed offensive? Equality in marriage? Encouraging servant leadership and ministering to the one? Or true conversion and service?

I'm offended that Jesus is represented as being Jewish

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, juliann said:

I simply did what you did, applying negative behavior to you like you do to us. 

I've never commented on your behavior, as far as I recall.  YOu are making something up, it seems.  But if not, please point to me where I did as much.   

1 minute ago, juliann said:

I can't believe I have to explain that to you.  But you still see no connection. I really don't understand why critics are so insistent that their behavior is pure and undefiled no matter how many times they are told it is offensive to the listener. 

What is offensive?  That I don't like the wording in a couple of parts of the slide deck? 

And, I remain an active member who gives plenty to the Church in many ways.  I don't think you understand where I'm coming from, and that's fine.  But I have no idea why you are commenting as if you do know. 

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I'm offended that Jesus is represented as being Jewish

It would be nice if he were, I agree. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by stemelbow

[juliann]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

  But what we do know sans unexpected financial blessings that come when one pays tithing or not, when someone gives away 10% of their increase, they are left with 10% less than they did have. 

 

And a remarkable world wide social support network, food, and money, education funding, humanitarian services, etc., etc. if they hit hard times. 

What do you get for not paying tithing? 

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

 

And, I remain an active member who gives plenty to the Church in many ways.  I don't think you understand where I'm coming from, and that's fine.  But I have no idea why you are commenting as if you do know. 

Says the one who just spoke for an African nation.....

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, juliann said:

And a remarkable world wide social support network, food, and money, education funding, humanitarian services, etc., etc. if they hit hard times. 

What do you get for not paying tithing? 

If I don't pay tithing I get 10% more than I would have.  But, to get a full picture you'd have to ask those who don't pay tithing.  I see plenty with all kinds of blessings--every single blessing I've heard members proclaim to be as a result of paying tithing I've heard the same benefits and blessings for those who don't pay tithing.  So, in sum, I don't and have never seen paying tithing as a means for me to get a blessing.  I don't think that's the right way to approach it. 

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, juliann said:

Says the one who just spoke for an African nation.....

I did not, to be clear. 

[USU78]

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It would be nice if he were, I agree. 

Hard to mock the clueless, I guess

[juliann]

4 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I've never commented on your behavior, as far as I recall.  YOu are making something up, it seems.  But if not, please point to me where I did as much.   

 

I have never been one to hold back much when it comes to where the church could...and needs to...improve. There is stuff I just plain don't support. But when you make petty and mean comments about my church wanting to fleece Africans, oh right, "sounding" like they did, because of one line on a power point, it "sounds like" you are criticizing me because I support tithing and that is my church. 

See how it works both ways?  

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Hard to mock the clueless, I guess

I don't think you are clueless, USU78.  And I try not to mock too many anyway. 

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

If I don't pay tithing I get 10% more than I would have.  But, to get a full picture you'd have to ask those who don't pay tithing.  I see plenty with all kinds of blessings--every single blessing I've heard members proclaim to be as a result of paying tithing I've heard the same benefits and blessings for those who don't pay tithing.  So, in sum, I don't and have never seen paying tithing as a means for me to get a blessing.  I don't think that's the right way to approach it. 

Which has nothing, and I mean nothing, to do with what I said. You are dodging again. 

(Do I need to remind you that I said I don't like the cash out cash in approach to tithing and that tithing gives you stuff beyond that? I have only talked about the beyond that stuff.)

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, juliann said:

I have never been one to hold back much when it comes to where the church could...and needs to...improve. There is stuff I just plain don't support. But when you make petty and mean comments about my church wanting to fleece Africans, oh right, "sounding" like they did, because of one line on a power point, it "sounds like" you are criticizing me because I support tithing and that is my church. 

See how it works both ways?  

To be clear, I did not say anything about the Church wanting to fleece Africans.  I criticized the wording in the powerpoint.  You consider the powerpoint to be the voice of the Church, even when it has no official sanction from the Church?  I think you misunderstood and got unnecessarily defensive.  I did not say what you think I said. 

[MormonVideoGame]

11 minutes ago, juliann said:

And a remarkable world wide social support network, food, and money, education funding, humanitarian services, etc., etc. if they hit hard times. 

Yes in the USA, but not much in Africa and Latin America. LDS wards in poor countries have a very limited funds, so families that "hit hard times" don't get much help from the church. 

A family of six in temporal need only gets a small shopping cart of food, and I suspect there are not many Bishop Storehouses in Africa and Latin America. 

Thank goodness we don't have that problem here in the promise land.  

Edited June 14, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[juliann]

12 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Yes in the USA, but not much in Africa and Latin America. LDS wards in poor countries have a very limited funds, so families that "hit hard times" don't get much help from the church. 

A family of six in temporal need only gets a small shopping cart of food, and I suspect there are not many Bishop Storehouses in Africa and Latin America. 

Thank goodness we don't have that problem here in the promise land.  

Well, I look forward to a complete account! With a heck of a lot more detail. I have  family on a humanitarian mission in Fiji. Should we start there? 

Edited June 14, 2017 by juliann

[MormonVideoGame]

9 minutes ago, juliann said:

Well, I look forward to a complete account! With a heck of a lot more detail. I have a family on a humanitarian mission in Fiji. Should we start there? 

I repeat, members from poor LDS wards in poor countries don't get much temporal help. Why? because poor LDS wards have very limited funds.  

What accounts and details do you need? 

9 minutes ago, juliann said:

 I have a family on a humanitarian mission in Fiji. Should we start there? 

That is good, I never said the church didn't help other countries, but how many humanitarian missionaries does the church have in Latin America? 

Edited June 14, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[juliann]

4 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

I repeat, members from poor LDS wards in poor countries don't get much temporal help. Why? because poor LDS wards have very limited funds.  

What accounts and details do you need? 

That is good, I never said the church didn't help other countries, but how many humanitarian missionaries does the church have in Latin America? 

You are the one making the claims. You tell me how many missionaries are there.  

[juliann]

For those who are interested in what the church is doing, there is always LDS.org.  https://www.ldscharities.org/news/from-the-web/initiative:all/year:all/page:1

The Church doesn't make a fuss about this stuff. My sister was told not to talk to reporters about what they were doing. Unfortunately, that does allow critics to make up their own versions of what the church is or supposedly isn't doing. Again, they are essentially withholding information while pointing at Mormons for not being truthful. Yeah, I'm tired of they hypocrisy and double standards that we are expected to sit through on our own board. Twenty years? It can make one crabby sometimes.

What is being able to see worth? Being able to walk? Having clean water? Having access to education? Having a hospital? These things affect more than just one family. They help build and solidify communities. 

[RevTestament]

39 minutes ago, Gray said:

Just as Christian Scientists don't believe in modern medicine, many Mormons seem not to believe in math. The result of people paying tithing is that they have roughly 10% less income. Paying tithing doesn't increase income for anyone but the church itself.

I don't say that to be offensive, I'm just trying to be realistic. I know full well that Latter-day Saints aren't the only Christians who believe this way.

No. And the Lord does not bless the Gentiles, and has nothing to do with why the United States became a prosperous nation compared to oh say Afghanistan. The Lord has no power to bless me with more work, yada yada yada. All those people who testify in Church that the Lord blessed them after they tithed so that they could pay their bills are liars all!!!