conference

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Maybe. It seems not though. I do remember thinking of Stembelow with that one. I probably shouldn't have said anything since I can't remember. 

I appreciate you thinking of the both of us.

[Meadowchik]

5 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I think it's more about conflictual word and using things that are by far non-objective terms, but value laden. Advocating or even promoting a position is more neutral. Manipulative has both a negative connotation and is misapplied. By your use and context from what I read, I manipulate people daily for my job. I do not take their stance as a given but work from some of my perspectives and work to convince them of a new perspective and outlook.  Sometimes I do so in subtle suggestions, confronting certain beliefs, and reframing to what I feel are more positive bends. It's coming from my perconceived notions about health, inherent human worth, and the value of certain human experiences. And I move for those and in those convictions. 

AKA manipulative....or therapy. Whichever  

 

With luv,

BD 

Sarah crushed on charming Steve and then discovered he was a fraud. She now refuses to listen to his innocent-sounding banter about vegetarian eating because she knows what it really is. Sarah has nothing against vegetarians. She knows they are not all like Steve. 

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Meadowchik

[BlueDreams]

6 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Sarah crushed on charming Steve and then discovered he was a fraud. She now refuses to listen to his innocent-sounding banter about vegetarian eating because she knows what it really is. Sarah has nothing against vegetarians. She knows they are not all like Steve. 

 

Uhhhh. I know this is supposed to mean something. But literally all I'm getting is that Sarah wouldn't mind me being vegetarian. I'm getting nothing else.

And I'm wondering why Sarah's calling someone a fraud? I've met some crummy people both in my personal life and for work. But they're complex and even the biggest liar I wouldn't call a fraud. Seems a bit dramatic. I've had people state things this dramatic in a rocky marriage heading to divorce. They were usually not accurate or painted a broadbrush that did not give space for anything else to be so. It kept their cycle and stunted their relationship that had once been pretty good.  Even when that was closer to the truth, it was rarely a helpful attitude for the  other person to sustain longer than it took for them to express anger and hurt. They usually were really bad with anger and hurt and asserting that what happened in their relationship was bad. They were my abused folk. Oddly one of the ways I can tell someone isn't really abused is that they're quick to suggest that they are. They have enough feeedom of soul to suggest it...while also not having enough infor on abuse. Just assume that if they're hurting and it seems unfair it must be.

which is probably moving well past the analogy, but I simply don't get it because it simplifies in a way I basically never do with people or relationships. Ever.

 

With luv,

BD

 

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by BlueDreams

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Yeah, that's not exactly what I agreed to.  Meanwhile you've got bluebell arguing your posts are devoid of snark on the subject of Victoria Osteen.  Her check's in the mail, right?

;0)

--Erik

Hey, I could use the money -- as long as she is sending it to me.  Or did you mean that I should send bludbell some compensation, and that I am an April fool?  

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Well I'm glad you feel better, at least.

1 Kings 19

Quote

11And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake: 12And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

 

 

[CMZ]

16 hours ago, Tacenda said:

So has the membership decreased at all, or stakes or wards? I haven't a clue what it was last year.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2016/04/statistical-report-2015?lang=eng

[CMZ]

13 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I really enjoyed both sessions so far. I have a tendency to not be able to tell you what the talks are really about, because I was more focused on finding things that I need. It gets awkward when people are quoting talks and I'm wondering if I was even at the same session ! I'm just not a big quote person. But I saw this comment and thought you may really like second session, particularly. Again, it could be just what I was focusing and needing for my own person struggles right now, but several IMO were focused heavily on Christ. Holland's was also very good. Overall I've been content with what I've received. But maybe it'll be better for you at a different time  

 

With luv,

BD

Elder Bednar would agree with you and say that conference (and some other meetings) are to be listened to in the Spirit so that you as an individual can receive from the Spirit the message that is intended for you.

[Avatar4321]

I really liked elder rasbands talk

[bsjkki]

4 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I really liked elder rasbands talk

Me too.

[cinepro]

17 hours ago, Tacenda said:

So has the membership decreased at all, or stakes or wards? I haven't a clue what it was last year.

In absolute numbers, membership is increasing.

Total Membership
2011: 14,441,346
2012: 14,782,473
2013: 15,082,028
2014: 15,372,337
2015: 15,634,199

2016: 15,882,417

 

But, as with all statistics, there are many different ways to analyze this.

For example, the total number of converts baptized each year is decreasing:

Converts Baptized
2011: 281,312
2012: 272,330
2013: 282,945
2014: 296,803
2015: 257,402

2016: 240,131

Compare that to the number of missionaries each year, and the "converts per missionary" is getting worse, which can't be good for missionary morale:

2011: 55,410 (5.08)
2012: 58,990 (4.61)
2013: 83,035 (3.41)
2014: 85,147 (3.49)
2015: 74,079 (3.47)

2016: 70,946 (3.38)

 

[rongo]

Is the use of "even" in the following context a uniquely North American Mormon thing?

". . . our beloved president, even Thomas S. Monson . . ."

". . . our Savior and Redeemer, even Jesus Christ . . ."

I don't think any other people use this redundant expression. Whom did it start with, I wonder?

[rongo]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

Compare that to the number of missionaries each year, and the "converts per missionary" is getting worse, which can't be good for missionary morale:

Good thing that missionary morale doesn't depend on converts per missionary (or, it shouldn't). My mission (Germany Hamburg, 1994-1996) averaged 1-2 baptisms per mission. I didn't have flocks of converts (I had 8), but my mission was full of adventures, experiences, etc. Even with 10+ hours of door-to-door per day on most days, morale was high (at least for me, and as far as I could tell with others). 

I think the bigger threat to morale is the new coddling post-"surge," with missionaries in North America being told to wait at the church if members don't fill their calendars with appointments. I'm sure that this isn't all missions, but it appears to me to be many, and if I hung out at the church all day instead of trying to find people, I think my morale would have been very low.

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, rongo said:

Is the use of "even" in the following context a uniquely North American Mormon thing?

". . . our beloved president, even Thomas S. Monson . . ."

". . . our Savior and Redeemer, even Jesus Christ . . ."

I don't think any other people use this redundant expression. Whom did it start with, I wonder?

It occurs in the New Testament. That's probably where it comes from. It's probably an archaic form of speech. 

Edited April 2, 2017 by bluebell

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, rongo said:

 

I think the bigger threat to morale is the new coddling post-"surge," with missionaries in North America being told to wait at the church if members don't fill their calendars with appointments. I'm sure that this isn't all missions, but it appears to me to be many, and if I hung out at the church all day instead of trying to find people, I think my morale would have been very low.

I wonder if it is less coddling and more possible community blowback against door to door solicitations.  I have heard of a few communities attempting to make it illegal.  Perhaps SLC is more aware of such issues and potential problems than locals.

Leadership has been dealing with young men and women for decades.  They are probably aware that one of the worst things to put a young adult who is trying to keep on the path of righteousness through is boredom.  I see it as unlikely they are having them sit at church waiting for people to show up also knowing the infrequency of people actually doing that just to protect them from embarrassment or discomfort of door to door encounters.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Calm

[cinepro]

6 minutes ago, rongo said:

Good thing that missionary morale doesn't depend on converts per missionary (or, it shouldn't). My mission (Germany Hamburg, 1994-1996) averaged 1-2 baptisms per mission. I didn't have flocks of converts (I had 8), but my mission was full of adventures, experiences, etc. Even with 10+ hours of door-to-door per day on most days, morale was high (at least for me, and as far as I could tell with others). 

I think the bigger threat to morale is the new coddling post-"surge," with missionaries in North America being told to wait at the church if members don't fill their calendars with appointments. I'm sure that this isn't all missions, but it appears to me to be many, and if I hung out at the church all day instead of trying to find people, I think my morale would have been very low.

It's a tough balance, I'm sure, because unless the missionary program is massively re-framed to be a Peace-Corps type service mission, the foundational purpose and emphasis is still the same it has always been: to find and baptize people into the Church.  As more and more missionaries spend their 18months or two years without baptizing anyone and having few meaningful teaching experiences, people will start to question the value of the massive investment in time and money.

Obviously, missionaries in less productive areas have always developed techniques to deal with the lack of baptisms.  But I suspect the Church leadership has already started to value more and more the perceived benefit of strengthening the testimonies of the missionaries themselves, which might be great for the Church, but isn't widely acknowledged to the missionaries themselves as one of the reasons they are there.

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Uhhhh. I know this is supposed to mean something. But literally all I'm getting is that Sarah wouldn't mind me being vegetarian. I'm getting nothing else.

And I'm wondering why Sarah's calling someone a fraud? I've met some crummy people both in my personal life and for work. But they're complex and even the biggest liar I wouldn't call a fraud. Seems a bit dramatic. I've had people state things this dramatic in a rocky marriage heading to divorce. They were usually not accurate or painted a broadbrush that did not give space for anything else to be so. It kept their cycle and stunted their relationship that had once been pretty good.  Even when that was closer to the truth, it was rarely a helpful attitude for the  other person to sustain longer than it took for them to express anger and hurt. They usually were really bad with anger and hurt and asserting that what happened in their relationship was bad. They were my abused folk. Oddly one of the ways I can tell someone isn't really abused is that they're quick to suggest that they are. They have enough feeedom of soul to suggest it...while also not having enough infor on abuse. Just assume that if they're hurting and it seems unfair it must be.

which is probably moving well past the analogy, but I simply don't get it because it simplifies in a way I basically never do with people or relationships. Ever.

 

With luv,

BD

 

 

Well, it does happen. There do exist people who make grand claims, leading many after them, based on falsehoods. Regardless of how you evaluate their mental health, it would be fair to call someone like that a fraud. A "fraud" refers to them being a fraud in that thing.

While people are complicated and perhaps not so many people live in such duplicity, it's straightforward when I say Steve's a fraud.

And it's a parable demonstrating one of many manipulative techniques.

Maybe at some point Sarah will able to join in the conversation again since it involves many people she loves.  But at the moment, she chooses not to engage with Steve, as part of her own recovery process.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Meadowchik

[rongo]

dummy doc.docx

[Meadowchik]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

1 Kings 19

 

 

"The true meaning of love one's neighbor is not that it is a command from God which we are to fulfill, but that through it and in it we meet God."

-Martin Buber 

 

:)

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, rongo said:

dummy doc.docx

Nothing comes up

[rongo]

Sorry! I couldn't post anything, on any thread for some reason. It wouldn't let me reply to anything. I tried attaching a blank doc to hopefully reset whatever this was, but to no avail. I even tried PMing you, but it wouldn't let me type content beyond the subject. I cleared my cache, and it's letting me type this. Mal sehen ob es klappt!  

[Jeanne]

40 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

 

"The true meaning of love one's neighbor is not that it is a command from God which we are to fulfill, but that through it and in it we meet God."

-Martin Buber 

 

That is beautiful.

[rongo]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I wonder if it is less coddling and more possible community blowback against door to door solicitations.  I have heard of a few communities attempting to make it illegal.  Perhaps SLC is more aware of such issues and potential problems than locals.

Leadership has been dealing with young men and women for decades.  They are probably aware that one of the worst things to put a young adult who is trying to keep on the path of righteousness through is boredom.  I see it as unlikely they are having them sit at church waiting for people to show up also knowing the infrequency of people actually doing that just to protect them from embarrassment or discomfort of door to door encounters.

I don't think so. Timing-wise, all of this hit in my area after a member of the seventy told us at stake conference that it was members' duties to shield missionaries and make sure they never have any negative experiences of any kind. Then, our mission piloted "service only --- no finding." Missionaries were under no circumstances to knock doors or try to find people on their own. Members were supposed to be forced to find all of their teaching opportunities. Interestingly, during this time we had several excellent missionaries who knocked doors, anyway, and found several good converts who wouldn't otherwise have been found. 

I think you're giving the Brethren too much credit at being well aware of the effects of boredom on young people. The missionaries almost literally live at the church building in my area (by instruction), to the point where members have commented on it. It isn't their fault. They have super long district meetings and joint "planning" meetings, and play on their iPads trying to find people. I think this is causing a lot of the mental problems many missionaries are having. Paradoxically, I think it would be healthier for them if they interacted with more people and had rejection and sometimes meanness to deal with. 

In my area, it isn't coldness that is the challenge with door-to-door, it's the fact that many people aren't home during the day, and those who are home often won't open the door. Europe in the mid 1990s was no different, and you knock anyway, and do end up meeting people and finding people (again, people who wouldn't be found any other way). You can also keep records and "door out" an area --- going morning, afternoon, and night to try to talk to as many as possible. And, even if most doors don't even open to you, you have more companion and conversation time. As it is now, companions always are sitting on the foyer sofas, scrolling through their iPads, not talking to each other. 

[rongo]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

It's a tough balance, I'm sure, because unless the missionary program is massively re-framed to be a Peace-Corps type service mission, the foundational purpose and emphasis is still the same it has always been: to find and baptize people into the Church.  As more and more missionaries spend their 18months or two years without baptizing anyone and having few meaningful teaching experiences, people will start to question the value of the massive investment in time and money.

Obviously, missionaries in less productive areas have always developed techniques to deal with the lack of baptisms.  But I suspect the Church leadership has already started to value more and more the perceived benefit of strengthening the testimonies of the missionaries themselves, which might be great for the Church, but isn't widely acknowledged to the missionaries themselves as one of the reasons they are there.

Wilford Woodruff said that he learned the gospel "through shoe leather." I think testimonies are strengthened more through missionary work (with all that entails, including rejection, miracles, mean people, wonderful experiences, and sometimes dry spells in finding) than through meetings all week (district meetings, district planning meetings, the entire mission going to headquarters for transfers --- not just those being transferred, and other ways sought to have the missionaries' time occupied not doing missionary work). I think this is also a contributing factor in missionaries being depressed on their missions and post mission.

I remember Duncan sharing that a missionary in his ward was frustrated that they had him do indexing. He said, "I could have stayed home and done this, and saved $10,000."

[Garden Girl]

I loved conference!!  There was something in each talk that I could take to heart... I don't care how many times I've heard the topic discussed... or whether conference was 10 hours or two.... Boring?  Never!  My spirit is comforted, uplifted, and at peace.  

GG

[Duncan]

Just now, rongo said:

Wilford Woodruff said that he learned the gospel "through shoe leather." I think testimonies are strengthened more through missionary work (with all that entails, including rejection, miracles, mean people, wonderful experiences, and sometimes dry spells in finding) than through meetings all week (district meetings, district planning meetings, the entire mission going to headquarters for transfers --- not just those being transferred, and other ways sought to have the missionaries' time occupied not doing missionary work). I think this is also a contributing factor in missionaries being depressed on their missions and post mission.

I remember Duncan sharing that a missionary in his ward was frustrated that they had him do indexing. He said, "I could have stayed home and done this, and saved $10,000."

it's true, they were giving Church tours and the one from England was like, I know England better than here and local things and him and his comp. were beyond frustrated with the lack of progress. There were 6 missionaries in our ward at the time and the areas were just so small, that was 2013. One of that Elder's comps., he served here 9 months and was so awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!, he served a full 2 years and he went through so much flubdubbery in the field, it's beyond amazing and now he's totally inactive, drinking, drugs and this GF of his.............but that aspect is so sad!!!!!!!!!!!! 2013 was a rough year for missionaries and missionary work here at least