The Large Porn Bubble In The Middle Of The PP

[Calm]

Blue dreams has had some past very informative posts on the subject for those who are interested and unaware.  It is part of her specialty (sex and family therapist).  Her info matches up with what I studied back 30+ years ago with more updated studies, so I think her info is the best that has been seen on the board yet and well worth searching for if you want to be informed on actual danger as well as where we shouldn't be so angst as a culture and more open.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, JulieM said:

Yes, I thought of all that and agree.  I think someone would really have to be addicted to porn for this to happen though and I feel that not many are (really addicted).  Maybe I just live a sheltered life.

I believe the guilt members are made to feel (especially the youth) causes more issues and damage than the actual occasional seeing of porn.

I just hate the tremendous guilt that's imposed for this and also for the dreaded "m" word. I believe it's just a normal part of being a teen.

 

having known and know of many more families being destroyed by porn usage than by drug abuse (though some of the kids destroyed by the porn turned to drugs), usually the most difficult to get over is the dishonesty issue where the spouse loses almost all ability to trust as well as feeling responsible for lapses because she hasn't protected him from stress, but I have seen also adults involved with porn intentionally exposing their kids to it to demonstrate how normal it is (which then in one case resulted in two sisters being raped by brothers), or kids unintentionally being exposed not registering what is and isnt appropriate, also leading in one case to sexual abuse of a disabled sister, another raping his brother with his friend...and then there is the abuse the wife receives as she fails to measure up to expectations or when she requires a husband actually emotionally involved in their relationship to whom she is not primarily a sex object as he has been taught to view women through the porn.

Notsaying this is typical behaviour, but if even I who tends to be quite sheltered because of health limitations know of around a dozen families screwed up by porn usage, it cannot be that uncommon.  And it may not have caused the fundamental problems, but it intensifies and focuses them imo and makes them hard to overcome.

I do believe we need to be not dressing up sex in alluring mystique, teach it as an normal part of life, not creating guilt where none is needed, but we need to be realistic about the harm porn can contribute outside of addiction.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Calm

[JulieM]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Blue dreams has had some past very informative posts on the subject for those who are interested and unaware.  It is part of her specialty (sex and family therapist).  Her info matches up with what I studied back 30+ years ago with more updated studies, so I think her info is the best that has been seen on the board yet and well worth searching for if you want to be informed on actual danger as well as where we shouldn't be so angst as a culture and more open.

Thanks Calm!  I'll try to search and find some of her posts on this topic (which are always excellent and very interesting to read). 

[Jeanne]

15 hours ago, JulieM said:

Is anyone else a bit puzzled by the bubble titled "porn" (the largest one in the center of the power point recently leaked)?  

There seems to almost be an obsession with the leaders on this topic.

Do people really leave the church over porn?  I happen to believe there are very few actual porn addicts in the church and I hate how the youth are riddled with guilt over even viewing it occasionally.  

Anyway, I know this is a sensitive topic, but I doubt people leave to view porn and I feel it's the old "members leave to sin" rhetoric.

 

Porn is never a good thing and it can destroy so many good things in life as all addictions do...but I was surprised that there wasn't a big bubble for Jeremy Runnels and the CES letter.  I was really surprised as it has affected the church on so many levels.

[JulieM]

7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Porn is never a good thing and it can destroy so many good things in life as all addictions do...but I was surprised that there wasn't a big bubble for Jeremy Runnels and the CES letter.  I was really surprised as it has affected the church on so many levels.

Me too Jeanne!  

I also think the bubble that states "Incredulity over Church history" should state: "Discovering the True Church History" or something like that.

Incredulity means that someone is unable or unwilling to believe something.

Members who discover troubling facts about church history have no trouble believing them with any type of thorough research.  It's the truth that is troubling (ie. Polygamy, etc.).

Edited March 3, 2017 by JulieM

[CV75]

14 hours ago, JulieM said:

Many inactive members still love and live the gospel of Jesus Christ.  I don't know about John Dehlin, but leaving the Mormon church is not the same as leaving the gospel, IMO.  I have no idea how Dehlin feels about Christ and his teachings.  But I know many wonderful Christians who are not members or who are inactive members of the church.

Huh? That has nothing to do with what I posted or asked. What about all that stuff you said about porn?

The slide shows "porn" tied in the 4^th place of 17 bubbles, the largest being disagreement with Church policies, and the smallest John Dehlin. How do you propose that porn helps members stay in the Gospel more than say, John Dehlin’s ideas?

How do Church leaders show they preoccupy or fill their minds continually, intrusively, and to a troubling extent on this subject?

Why do you conclude that the motive for leaving the Gospel is to view porn, when the concern is that using it has leads people to leaving? "I want to view porn, so i will abandon the teachings of Christ" -- just doesn't work that way. A developing interest in something someone finds more enticing than the Gospel is what leads people away from their "first love."

[JulieM]

26 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Huh? That has nothing to do with what I posted or asked. What about all that stuff you said about porn?l

You stated:

"The slide is about leaving the Gospel, not leaving the Church.

The slide shows "porn" tied in the 4th place of 17 bubbles, the largest being disagreement with Church policies, and the smallest John Dehlin. How do you propose that porn helps members stay in the Gospel more than say, John Dehlin’s ideas?"

I was just pointing out that just because Dehlin (or anyone) goes inactive that  is not synonymous with them desiring to stop believing in the teachings of Christ or his Gospel.  Many remain good Christians.

Maybe I misunderstood your comment or took it wrong?

Edited March 3, 2017 by JulieM

[bluebell]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

having known and know of many more families being destroyed by porn usage than by drug abuse (though some of the kids destroyed by the porn turned to drugs), usually the most difficult to get over is the dishonesty issue where the spouse loses almost all ability to trust as well as feeling responsible for lapses because she hasn't protected him from stress, but I have seen also adults involved with porn intentionally exposing their kids to it to demonstrate how normal it is (which then in one case resulted in two sisters being raped by brothers), or kids unintentionally being exposed not registering what is and isnt appropriate, also leading in one case to sexual abuse of a disabled sister, another raping his brother with his friend...and then there is the abuse the wife receives as she fails to measure up to expectations or when she requires a husband actually emotionally involved in their relationship to whom she is not primarily a sex object as he has been taught to view women through the porn.

Notsaying this is typical behaviour, but if even I who tends to be quite sheltered because of health limitations know of around a dozen families screwed up by porn usage, it cannot be that uncommon.  And it may not have caused the fundamental problems, but it intensifies and focuses them imo and makes them hard to overcome.

I do believe we need to be not dressing up sex in alluring mystique, teach it as an normal part of life, not creating guilt where none is needed, but we need to be realistic about the harm porn can contribute outside of addiction.

As i've mentioned before, i have a very close friend who's husband has struggled with this issue, and the most surprising thing that i have learned (because she shares all of this with me as she's working thru it and venting about it) is how many men are seriously struggling with porn in the church right now.  It has been incredibly depressing to her to learn the extent of the problem in the church as she has met with bishops and gone to different counseling options (all LDS focused but separate from the porn addiction groups).  High councilmen, bishopric members, missionaries, etc. it has touched so many levels.  In her stake they allow men who are working on porn addictions (but haven't yet been able to stop) to retain their callings and keep their temple recommends.  And these are men where a lot of them are looking at hard core porn daily.  

In another stake next to ours (that family friends attend) their young women are going thru an epidemic right now with porn use.

 

[JulieM]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

As i've mentioned before, i have a very close friend who's husband has struggled with this issue, and the most surprising thing that i have learned (because she shares all of this with me as she's working thru it and venting about it) is how many men are seriously struggling with porn in the church right now.  It has been incredibly depressing to her to learn the extent of the problem in the church as she has met with bishops and gone to different counseling options (all LDS focused but separate from the porn addiction groups).  High councilmen, bishopric members, missionaries, etc. it has touched so many levels.  In her stake they allow men who are working on porn addictions (but haven't yet been able to stop) to retain their callings and keep their temple recommends.  And these are men where a lot of them are looking at hard core porn daily.  

In another stake next to ours (that family friends attend) their young women are going thru an epidemic right now with porn use.

Wow, bluebell.  I had no idea.  I guess it just hasn't personally touched my life (of course that doesn't mean it won't).

I'm surprised the men in that stake are allowed to hold temple recommends and callings (especially if some are viewing "hard core porn daily")!  

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Wow, bluebell.  I had no idea.  I guess it just hasn't personally touched my life (of course that doesn't mean it won't).

I'm surprised the men in that stake are allowed to hold temple recommends and callings (especially if some are viewing "hard core porn daily")!  

From what she has told me (and she had been working with a really great bishop) the church is really taking a mercy over justice approach to these kinds of things.  They believe that people who struggle with these issues need more access to the spirit and to be able to use the power in their covenants, not less.  The shame cycle is a big reason why this habit is so hard to break so moving away from anything that gives that toxic shame more power seems to be helping.

It probably depends on the stake though.  I'm guessing there are people who have lost temple recommends over it.

[HappyJackWagon]

10 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Addiction isn't measured in frequency but in ability to resist.
If you only viewed once a year but you were unable to NOT view once a year you are addicted.  It's an issue of where the control lies.

I agree that it isn't necessarily measured in frequency but doing something once a year does not make an addict. If that were the case we would all be addicts to a whole lot of sinful behaviors like lying, gossiping, judging unrighteously, etc. etc. When we use that kind of definition for addiction we diminish the impact of real addiction on peoples lives. Defining addiction so broadly removes any useful definition of addiction.

Quote

Addiction

 Definition

Addiction is a persistent, compulsive dependence on a behavior or substance. The term has been partially replaced by the word dependence for substance abuse. Addiction has been extended, however, to include mood-altering behaviors or activities. Some researchers speak of two types of addictions: substance addictions (for example, alcoholism, drug abuse, and smoking); and process addictions (for example, gambling, spending, shopping, eating, and sexual activity). There is a growing recognition that many addicts, such as polydrug abusers, are addicted to more than one substance or process.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/addiction

 

[Robert F. Smith]

40 minutes ago, bluebell said:

As i've mentioned before, i have a very close friend who's husband has struggled with this issue, and the most surprising thing that i have learned (because she shares all of this with me as she's working thru it and venting about it) is how many men are seriously struggling with porn in the church right now.  It has been incredibly depressing to her to learn the extent of the problem in the church as she has met with bishops and gone to different counseling options (all LDS focused but separate from the porn addiction groups).  High councilmen, bishopric members, missionaries, etc. it has touched so many levels.  In her stake they allow men who are working on porn addictions (but haven't yet been able to stop) to retain their callings and keep their temple recommends.  And these are men where a lot of them are looking at hard core porn daily.  

In another stake next to ours (that family friends attend) their young women are going thru an epidemic right now with porn use.

Quite so, and that is why Elder Jeff Holland has so vociferously attacked pron addiction (with actual studies to back him up):

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865649944/Elder-Holland-speaks-at-the-Utah-Coalition-Against-Pornography-conference-The-Plague-of.html 

http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/3653253-155/lds-apostle-warns-against-epidemic-of 

Some even claim that Utah is the top consumer of porn:  https://theintellectualist.co/utah-nations-top-consumer-of-pornography-brands-porn-a-public-health-hazard/ .

[stemelbow]

I don't know about anyone else, but Meadowchick's stories scared me the most. 

Should we petition the Church to make the porn bubble bigger on the next slide deck? 

[Tacenda]

11 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I'll never forget this news story since I was also at BYU at the time. Another BYU student attempted to kill his pregnant wife because he was addicted to porn and he feared her reaction:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/995977/Poisoner-gets-15-years-in-prison.html

That is one problem that can occur with the church's obsession with porn. I'm sorry but it's backfiring. I once spoke up during a 5th Sunday meeting when the topic was porn and our youth. I worried that the non stop talk about it would introduce many clueless youth to it and make it worse. My bishop shot me down right away. I still am on the fence about how the church is handling this.

[CV75]

57 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Maybe I misunderstood your comment or took it wrong?

I don't know -- it seems you didn't address it at all. Interesting.

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

That is one problem that can occur with the church's obsession with porn. I'm sorry but it's backfiring. I once spoke up during a 5th Sunday meeting when the topic was porn and our youth. I worried that the non stop talk about it would introduce many clueless youth to it and make it worse. My bishop shot me down right away. I still am on the fence about how the church is handling this.

Seems like a mess either way--talk about it and it makes it worse.  Ignore it and it lives in the underground.  I'm not at all offended by the notion that it's some sort of plague.  Now, I don't really know, because honestly I struggle understanding the great destruction it has had on us, but if who people do know say it's a plague, fine.  Seems incredibly ugly to me. 

[JulieM]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

That is one problem that can occur with the church's obsession with porn. I'm sorry but it's backfiring. I once spoke up during a 5th Sunday meeting when the topic was porn and our youth. I worried that the non stop talk about it would introduce many clueless youth to it and make it worse. My bishop shot me down right away. I still am on the fence about how the church is handling this.

I agree.  I'm encouraged by what Bluebell posted above regarding how some leaders are now handling it (moving away from the "shame cycle").  I hope this becomes more common in other wards and stakes.

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

I agree.  I'm encouraged by what Bluebell posted above regarding how some leaders are now handling it (moving away from the "shame cycle").  I hope this becomes more common in other wards and stakes.

It's a difficult thing to figure out. I've read articles that the church is handling it wrong, I could find and post. But who knows really. I know I wouldn't like it if my husband viewed it. I am aware that it's a problem even at my husband's workplace. His boss is staunch LDS and one of the employees will view it constantly, but this boss won't fire him. He'd like to though. And that employee isn't LDS and has been told not to.

It does seem to be epidemic, I guess in all circles out there. 

[gopher]

Add "may kill you" to the list of problems associated with porn  Link

[Calm]

3 hours ago, JulieM said:

Me too Jeanne!  

I also think the bubble that states "Incredulity over Church history" should state: "Discovering the True Church History" or something like that.

Incredulity means that someone is unable or unwilling to believe something.

Members who discover troubling facts about church history have no trouble believing them with any type of thorough research.  It's the truth that is troubling (ie. Polygamy, etc.).

But sometimes it isn't the true history they discover.  Often I have read comments---not so much on the board where there are people to quickly correct info---that show some knowledge but not accurate enough to form a valid criticism, imo, so this covers both.  The people who react to the wrong info should be included as well if they are having problems with the Gospel because of it.  The solution imo is the same for both so it makes sense to have one bubble for both---better teaching of church history in a fuller context; won't solve all problems, but at least if people lose faith, it is for significant reasons, not misunderstanding or shock at not hearing about it earlier.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Calm

[JulieM]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

But sometimes it isn't the true history they discover.  Often I have read comments---not so much on the board where there are people to quickly correct info---that show some knowledge but not accurate enough to form a valid criticism, imo, so this covers both.  

I've mostly seen people coming to different conclusions rather than discovering history that isn't true.

[Calm]

FairMormon gets a lot of questions where family members and friends have confronted LDS family members with messed up info.  We probably get a higher percentage of these because being actually nonexistent, you can't find answers for them yourself.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Calm

[RevTestament]

15 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I'll never forget this news story since I was also at BYU at the time. Another BYU student attempted to kill his pregnant wife because he was addicted to porn and he feared her reaction:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/995977/Poisoner-gets-15-years-in-prison.html

That is just a horrible story of addiction. Wow. Anyone who is that bad off, needs help. I can't even fathom trying to kill my own child because of pornography. Each of my children were the nearest and dearest things to my heart, and I so enjoyed them even in my wife's womb. 

That just goes to show how pornography can warp the mind. Anything that makes normal relations that "problematic" is definitely a huge concern.

However, I don't believe it is something the church should be tolerating. I believe any church leaders, bishops, teachers, etc using it need to be released from their callings until they solemnly affirm they are not viewing pornography, because viewing it supports an exploitative industry, as well as causing many other societal and family ills. Failure to do this will probably only make the problem worse. 

[Meadowchik]

5 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I don't know about anyone else, but Meadowchick's stories scared me the most. 

Should we petition the Church to make the porn bubble bigger on the next slide deck? 

It is shocking that he would be willing to kill because of shame over using porn. I think it's that sick mental twisting that is so scary, right?

[rongo]

17 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

It is shocking that he would be willing to kill because of shame over using porn. I think it's that sick mental twisting that is so scary, right?

Wait --- I didn't read it, but it sounds like this was the guy who tried to kill his wife in Wymount, twice --- the first time was through poison mushrooms, and the second by giving her fish tank cleaner or something. That would put you at BYU in the late 90s - early 2000s, right?

Then, there'e Mark Hacking. His wife's anguish led him to shoot his wife, roll her in a mattress, and throw her in a dumpster several blocks away. Hacking was eerily similar to my former brother-in-law. Both pretended to be going to school. Hacking was supposed to be moving to Chapel Hill, NC to start medical school, and it was his wife's calls to get housing that led her to learn that he was not enrolled there. He bought books from the UofU bookstore and spent hours doing "homework" to convince his wife that he was a student. My former BIL did the same, and my sister didn't learn about his double-life until they inexplicably got a Discover Card bill sent to their home (he had a PO box for his lifestyle bills, and the home wasn't on that or the Discover Card's accounts. Prostitutes and things like that). She had a terrible feeling that she and their infant son were in danger, and they left. He ended up having a long-standing and deep-seated porn problem. 

The problem for the Church isn't these high-profile, outlier, sensational cases that illustrate the ill-effects of pornography and masturbation. It is the loss of the Spirit; real, natural guilt (not just "institutional" guilt that exists because of the Church's stance); and the tangible damaging effects on men and women who do not leave the rails and become murderers or out-of-control libertines. And I do include masturbation in this because of its spiritual effects. It is not just a natural part of growing up. There is a reason why fantasizing about others ("looking upon [others] to lust after them" = "already committing adultery with them in your heart") is condemned in the OT, NT, BOM, and D&C --- in each case by Jehovah/Jesus Christ. It is corrosive to the soul and leads to broken people and broken families down the road, and not simply because they have "institutional" guilt arbitrarily put on them by the Church.