Duncan Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 Just now, rongo said: Wait --- I didn't read it, but it sounds like this was the guy who tried to kill his wife in Wymount, twice --- the first time was through poison mushrooms, and the second by giving her fish tank cleaner or something. That would put you at BYU in the late 90s - early 2000s, right? Then, there'e Mark Hacking. His wife's anguish led him to shoot his wife, roll her in a mattress, and throw her in a dumpster several blocks away. Hacking was eerily similar to my former brother-in-law. Both pretended to be going to school. Hacking was supposed to be moving to Chapel Hill, NC to start medical school, and it was his wife's calls to get housing that led her to learn that he was not enrolled there. He bought books from the UofU bookstore and spent hours doing "homework" to convince his wife that he was a student. My former BIL did the same, and my sister didn't learn about his double-life until they inexplicably got a Discover Card bill sent to their home (he had a PO box for his lifestyle bills, and the home wasn't on that or the Discover Card's accounts. Prostitutes and things like that). She had a terrible feeling that she and their infant son were in danger, and they left. He ended up having a long-standing and deep-seated porn problem. The problem for the Church isn't these high-profile, outlier, sensational cases that illustrate the ill-effects of pornography and masturbation. It is the loss of the Spirit; real, natural guilt (not just "institutional" guilt that exists because of the Church's stance); and the tangible damaging effects on men and women who do not leave the rails and become murderers or out-of-control libertines. And I do include masturbation in this because of its spiritual effects. It is not just a natural part of growing up. There is a reason why fantasizing about others ("looking upon [others] to lust after them" = "already committing adultery with them in your heart") is condemned in the OT, NT, BOM, and D&C --- in each case by Jehovah/Jesus Christ. It is corrosive to the soul and leads to broken people and broken families down the road, and not simply because they have "institutional" guilt arbitrarily put on them by the Church. I knew Mark Hacking, so sad!!!!!!!!
rongo Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 Just now, Duncan said: I knew Mark Hacking, so sad!!!!!!!! How? Wow, what a small world! I just remember when it happened, my sister had just divorced her husband and had a six month old baby. The two situations were very similar, except my sister and nephew weren't killed. When she went to get a few necessities, the Holy Ghost told her to get out of the house NOW! She has never had such a clear prompting, and she left without getting everything she needed before he got home. 1
Duncan Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 Just now, rongo said: How? Wow, what a small world! I just remember when it happened, my sister had just divorced her husband and had a six month old baby. The two situations were very similar, except my sister and nephew weren't killed. When she went to get a few necessities, the Holy Ghost told her to get out of the house NOW! She has never had such a clear prompting, and she left without getting everything she needed before he got home. I knew him as a missionary and that whole sad situation and then some years later when his wife went missing and I thought oh geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez, awful stuff. I hope your sister is in a better situation now!
rongo Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, Duncan said: I knew him as a missionary and that whole sad situation and then some years later when his wife went missing and I thought oh geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez, awful stuff. I hope your sister is in a better situation now! Much better. She's had (and is having) a good life, but her married life started with that tragedy. Our nephew is a junior in high school now. It's too bad --- her in-laws are nice people, and the dad was a stake presidency member and is now a temple sealer. They were just as horrified as we were.
Tacenda Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Susan_Powell How about the Susan Powell case? Her body is still missing, her husband and two sons are dead because her husband set his home ablaze with their sons and he inside. Both her husband and father-in-law were extreme porn addicts, and this was the sickest porn ever, not that any are good. 1
Jeanne Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 27 minutes ago, Tacenda said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappearance_of_Susan_Powell How about the Susan Powell case? Her body is still missing, her husband and two sons are dead because her husband set his home ablaze with their sons and he inside. Both her husband and father-in-law were extreme porn addicts, and this was the sickest porn ever, not that any are good. I let this slip my mind and had forgotten about Mark Hacking. Both horrible! Someday I hope they can find Susan. How her family lives day to day is a testament to enduring to he end. 1
Tacenda Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 Here's another porn user, Ted Bundy. One of his victims was from my hometown. The night she was kidnapped I had been at the high school with my older sibling, where she had been kidnapped. It was Debra Kent, and her family was well known. There is a video of Ted Bundy stating that porn led to his serial killings, but I think there is more to it. On the link it mentions he was baptised into the LDS church, but not active. He probably did it as a front, what an evil, evil man. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy In August or September 1975, Bundy was baptized into The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, although he was not an active participant in services and ignored most church restrictions.[141][142][143] He would later be excommunicated by the LDS Church following his 1976 kidnapping conviction.[141] (When asked his religious preference after his arrest, Bundy answered "Methodist", the religion of his childhood.[144])
RevTestament Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 2 hours ago, rongo said: The problem for the Church isn't these high-profile, outlier, sensational cases that illustrate the ill-effects of pornography and masturbation. It is the loss of the Spirit; real, natural guilt (not just "institutional" guilt that exists because of the Church's stance); and the tangible damaging effects on men and women who do not leave the rails and become murderers or out-of-control libertines. And I do include masturbation in this because of its spiritual effects. It is not just a natural part of growing up. There is a reason why fantasizing about others ("looking upon [others] to lust after them" = "already committing adultery with them in your heart") is condemned in the OT, NT, BOM, and D&C --- in each case by Jehovah/Jesus Christ. It is corrosive to the soul and leads to broken people and broken families down the road, and not simply because they have "institutional" guilt arbitrarily put on them by the Church. Before pornography masturbators were around - um probably since the beginning. It's like saying copulation is a sin because there are couples that use pornography at the same time. They are different issues. Masturbation isn't a sin because of pornography.
Calm Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 (edited) Porn has been around since ancient times. What are labeled fertility figurines might have been porn objects, which dates it back 25,000 years. Not disagreeing with your point, by the way. Just making an observation. Edited March 4, 2017 by Calm
RevTestament Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 Well, the Romans did have orgies. Certain societies may have exposed kids to sultry stuff, but I think they are pretty disconnected. Anyway, that is getting off-topic. Now it is more private perhaps, but raising its head again. I think it is a sign of a general degeneration of society. The Church cannot ignore it. Leaving users in major callings is simply not an option as far as I am concerned. The whole structure of church revelation would break down.
Duncan Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 Just now, RevTestament said: Well, the Romans did have orgies. Certain societies may have exposed kids to sultry stuff, but I think they are pretty disconnected. Anyway, that is getting off-topic. Now it is more private perhaps, but raising its head again. I think it is a sign of a general degeneration of society. The Church cannot ignore it. Leaving users in major callings is simply not an option as far as I am concerned. The whole structure of church revelation would break down. I just listened to a person whose husband cheated on her, he was in the bishopric and he wasn't exed. She had no money because the husband is a lawyer and figured out a way to do that somehow and so she went to the Bishop who refused to give her any help. So she went to the Stake President to get help from the Church food bank but he refused and sided with the Bishop. Now the Stake President just got called to be a Mission President. I'm like where is the compassion here and are we so dumbstruck as to why this lady isn't active along with her kids, one of which committed suicide? If Porn is somehow a revelation repellant what about these men? Is apathy to someone else's situation in life also bad for revelation? 4
Tacenda Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 20 minutes ago, Duncan said: I just listened to a person whose husband cheated on her, he was in the bishopric and he wasn't exed. She had no money because the husband is a lawyer and figured out a way to do that somehow and so she went to the Bishop who refused to give her any help. So she went to the Stake President to get help from the Church food bank but he refused and sided with the Bishop. Now the Stake President just got called to be a Mission President. I'm like where is the compassion here and are we so dumbstruck as to why this lady isn't active along with her kids, one of which committed suicide? If Porn is somehow a revelation repellant what about these men? Is apathy to someone else's situation in life also bad for revelation?
RevTestament Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 27 minutes ago, Duncan said: I just listened to a person whose husband cheated on her, he was in the bishopric and he wasn't exed. She had no money because the husband is a lawyer and figured out a way to do that somehow and so she went to the Bishop who refused to give her any help. So she went to the Stake President to get help from the Church food bank but he refused and sided with the Bishop. Now the Stake President just got called to be a Mission President. I'm like where is the compassion here and are we so dumbstruck as to why this lady isn't active along with her kids, one of which committed suicide? If Porn is somehow a revelation repellant what about these men? Is apathy to someone else's situation in life also bad for revelation? My wife went inactive for similar reasons - leaders doing bad stuff. She had thoughts like how can they get called when they are such sinners? We do know that in other countries leaders will sometimes call certain people because they know they will cover for each other while stealing Church money or committing other sins. I'm not sure about apathy, but sometimes it seems some wards have a definite "good 'ol boys" network. Even the perception of sin can have a major detrimental effect on others. 2
rongo Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 5 hours ago, RevTestament said: It's like saying copulation is a sin because there are couples that use pornography at the same time. I know the Church backed off of standards for sex within marriage several decades ago (specifically, oral sex, but also extended to perverted and unnatural acts in general. That was not specifically defined), but I don't think the fact that a couple chooses to use pornography together makes it all right --- because they are married. I don't think couples can do whatever they want, no matter how weird, and it's made all right because they are married. While the Church doesn't have micromanaging standards in this area, I think couples can shut out the Spirit (and suffer the consequences for that) for things that offend the Spirit. They are different issues. Masturbation isn't a sin because of pornography. I agree. We almost always only talk about pornography, but there are men and women who struggle with masturbation without pornography at all. Mental ideation and fantasizing are used instead of "outside sources," and this, by any measure, violates Christ's clear teaching against this in all books of our standard works. When we lust after people in our hearts, we have committed adultery with them already in our hearts.
RevTestament Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 12 minutes ago, rongo said: I know the Church backed off of standards for sex within marriage several decades ago (specifically, oral sex, but also extended to perverted and unnatural acts in general. That was not specifically defined), but I don't think the fact that a couple chooses to use pornography together makes it all right --- because they are married. I don't think couples can do whatever they want, no matter how weird, and it's made all right because they are married. While the Church doesn't have micromanaging standards in this area, I think couples can shut out the Spirit (and suffer the consequences for that) for things that offend the Spirit. I think you get what I was saying. Married couples can sin in using pornography because it is unrighteous ideation involving others outside their covenant. The act of the sin is internal - in their mind - which is where sinful actions begin. Quote I agree. We almost always only talk about pornography, but there are men and women who struggle with masturbation without pornography at all. Mental ideation and fantasizing are used instead of "outside sources," and this, by any measure, violates Christ's clear teaching against this in all books of our standard works. When we lust after people in our hearts, we have committed adultery with them already in our hearts. Sounds to me like you are saying the ideation is the sin and not the act of masturbation itself...
Bernard Gui Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, Jeanne said: I let this slip my mind and had forgotten about Mark Hacking. Both horrible! Someday I hope they can find Susan. How her family lives day to day is a testament to enduring to he end. Susan's parents are among our best friends. Our kids grew up with her. Chuck and Judy, members of our ward, have turned the awful tragedy into positives....the Susan Cox Powell Foundation and Charlie's Dinosaur program, trying to improve child abuse legislation and grandparents' rights, abuse awareness, etc. http://www.susancoxpowellfoundation.net/information/charlies-dinosaur/ Pornography and voyeurism were a big part of the Powell family's extreme dysfunction and Susan and the boys payed the price of decades of father and sons behavior. LDS Addiction Recovery Programs for porn addicts are being formed in many places. We have a number that are functioning well in our area, and Support Groups for wives are proving to be very helpful to the sisters whose lives are in chaos because of their husband's addiction. Guilt can serve to motivate a person to repentance. Shaming them does not. In fact, it probably makes matters worse because it causes the user to seek relief by using even more. As in any addiction, the user must make their own way, and those who love him must find their own healing. This addiction is extremely difficult to overcome because it can be effectively hidden for decades, there are few if any outward signs of the addiction, and the triggers that cause relapse are ubiquitous. The good news is that with help, recovery and healing is possible. It truly is a modern plague that will only get worse. Part of the problem is that unlike substance abuse, some people don't see it as a real threat. Anyone who believes pornography is not a major problem or that it's just a problem for Mormons or is worse for Mormons because of something the Church is doing is sadly, sadly misinformed. If you know anyone who has this affliction or even you just suspect it, let them know not to be afraid or embarrassed but to seek help. The Atonement can work miracles. Edited March 4, 2017 by Bernard Gui 3
churchistrue Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 23 hours ago, bluebell said: As i've mentioned before, i have a very close friend who's husband has struggled with this issue, and the most surprising thing that i have learned (because she shares all of this with me as she's working thru it and venting about it) is how many men are seriously struggling with porn in the church right now. It has been incredibly depressing to her to learn the extent of the problem in the church as she has met with bishops and gone to different counseling options (all LDS focused but separate from the porn addiction groups). High councilmen, bishopric members, missionaries, etc. it has touched so many levels. In her stake they allow men who are working on porn addictions (but haven't yet been able to stop) to retain their callings and keep their temple recommends. And these are men where a lot of them are looking at hard core porn daily. In another stake next to ours (that family friends attend) their young women are going thru an epidemic right now with porn use. I read this sort of thing, and I really wonder what would happen if the church said, "we decided porn is no big deal, do it if you want, don't do it if you don't want to, try to focus your sexual attention to your spouse, but if you can't, keep it to fantasy, and don't worry about it. Most of all stop talking about, stop going to to therapy over it, stop doing groups, stop talking about sobriety, stop shaming yourself, stop making it your martyrdom badge of honor. likewise, women get over it, it's no worse than your addiction to romance novels or trash reality tv or online shopping or chocolate. he uses it to cope, you use it to cope. everyone uses something to cope. everyone just get over yourselves. porn only has as much power as you give it." Then all these poor men wouldn't have anything to hate themselves over. They might all stop looking at it immediately. I just wonder how much of the problem is all the extra guilt and shame we heap on top of it. I don't know. I'm probably wrong. But it all just seems like a waste of energy.
Meadowchik Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 4 hours ago, churchistrue said: I read this sort of thing, and I really wonder what would happen if the church said, "we decided porn is no big deal, do it if you want, don't do it if you don't want to, try to focus your sexual attention to your spouse, but if you can't, keep it to fantasy, and don't worry about it. Most of all stop talking about, stop going to to therapy over it, stop doing groups, stop talking about sobriety, stop shaming yourself, stop making it your martyrdom badge of honor. likewise, women get over it, it's no worse than your addiction to romance novels or trash reality tv or online shopping or chocolate. he uses it to cope, you use it to cope. everyone uses something to cope. everyone just get over yourselves. porn only has as much power as you give it." Then all these poor men wouldn't have anything to hate themselves over. They might all stop looking at it immediately. I just wonder how much of the problem is all the extra guilt and shame we heap on top of it. I don't know. I'm probably wrong. But it all just seems like a waste of energy. Except that whether it's porn or masterbation alone, aside from the spiritual consequences, being gratified alone can mean you desire your spouse less. I can see it being unfair if the wife goes weeks and weeks without sexual intimacy because her husband just takes care of himself rather than waiting for her. Or vice versa. 1
MormonVideoGame Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 12 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: being gratified alone can mean you desire your spouse less. No, to the contrary, it makes you desire her more. It does help many couples
MormonVideoGame Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 21 hours ago, Tacenda said: Both her husband and father-in-law were extreme porn addicts, and this was the sickest porn ever, not that any are good. being addicted to porn is like being addicted to MDDB, youtube, or facebook.
RevTestament Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 11 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: being addicted to porn is like being addicted to MDDB, youtube, or facebook. That is demonstrably false. Porn causes chemical changes to the brain. Over time the user will generally seek more and more graphic material to reach the same levels of excitement. The high levels of chemical excitement in the brain is what is addicting. In that sense it is much like drugs such as cocaine. Even the anticipation can start the chemical excitement in the brain. If youtube does that for you, I guess you are different than 99.999999999% of the world's population.
MormonVideoGame Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 1 minute ago, RevTestament said: That is demonstrably false. Porn causes chemical changes to the brain. Read the new thread I started. 4 minutes ago, RevTestament said: If youtube does that for you Do you know how to read an MRI scan? that is what I thought.
RevTestament Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 9 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: Do you know how to read an MRI scan? that is what I thought. Actually, I do - maybe not as well as a radiologist tho. I am glad you realized that... :)=
Jeanne Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 15 hours ago, Duncan said: I just listened to a person whose husband cheated on her, he was in the bishopric and he wasn't exed. She had no money because the husband is a lawyer and figured out a way to do that somehow and so she went to the Bishop who refused to give her any help. So she went to the Stake President to get help from the Church food bank but he refused and sided with the Bishop. Now the Stake President just got called to be a Mission President. I'm like where is the compassion here and are we so dumbstruck as to why this lady isn't active along with her kids, one of which committed suicide? If Porn is somehow a revelation repellant what about these men? Is apathy to someone else's situation in life also bad for revelation? Duncan, you don't have to answer..just say no.. But I am just curious, how do you separate knowledge of such things and perhaps some of your own experiences from total belief in the church? Thanks in advance. The above person you mentioned is not the only one this has happened to..i know that the people are not the gospel..and are imperfect..but when leadership gets involved it is hard to understand..their understanding of the gospel. I have had real experiences with this with my parents.
Duncan Posted March 4, 2017 Posted March 4, 2017 Just now, Jeanne said: Duncan, you don't have to answer..just say no.. But I am just curious, how do you separate knowledge of such things and perhaps some of your own experiences from total belief in the church? Thanks in advance. The above person you mentioned is not the only one this has happened to..i know that the people are not the gospel..and are imperfect..but when leadership gets involved it is hard to understand..their understanding of the gospel. I have had real experiences with this with my parents. I don't think the Church is perfect and stuff like this is really defensible ( I know some people that think that the Church is all true, perfect, wonderful) But for me it is great and good but not perfect or all wonderful and things like that. To me it's not black or white it's more grey. People, regardless of who they are calling etc. are accountable before men and God 1
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