Tacenda Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Statistics are all over the map. Earlier I cited this article. https://www.webroot.com/us/en/home/resources/tips/digital-family-life/internet-pornography-by-the-numbers I'm not sure what rare means or what we are to infer from it. If it means that in a typical ward only 9 or 10 boys and men struggle with porn addiction, is that rare? Even if it were only 2 or 3, we should still be concerned, rare of not. I'm inclined to go with the higher numbers and that they are growing based on my own anecdotal experience and meetings with other ARP workers, but do I have the hard statistics? I don't know how we could obtain current stats or how accurate they might be. Thank you for that, I did see the post but didn't take the time to read through, thanks!! I pray my sons, and daughters are staying clear of it, especially if it consumes or changes the chemicals in their brains. I read the other day that the church needs to become clear on what is porn addiction. Because someone that may have viewed some porn fleetingly, might turn into a hard core user if the individual figures he/she has sinned, might as well go all out. 1
MormonVideoGame Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 59 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I'm sorry but I have to take a few minutes to stop laughing. I have provided what you need. You'll have to live with it or leave it. Listen, I am only interested in scientific or medical references, not in anti-porn campaigns.
Bernard Gui Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 43 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Thank you for that, I did see the post but didn't take the time to read through, thanks!! I pray my sons, and daughters are staying clear of it, especially if it consumes or changes the chemicals in their brains. I read the other day that the church needs to become clear on what is porn addiction. Because someone that may have viewed some porn fleetingly, might turn into a hard core user if the individual figures he/she has sinned, might as well go all out. If you look through the LDSARP links I provided, you will find the Church is very clear about the difference between occasional and addictive use. There are some excellent resources there. I join you in your prayers. I do the same for my kids and I especially fear for the grandkids. I don't know how they can possibly avoid it. Some programs are emphasizing teaching kids how to react when they see it (not if they see it) in addition to other steps for parental protections. It's a perilous path for everyone. I'm reminded of the warning in the WoW... Quote In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—
Bernard Gui Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said: Listen, I am only interested in scientific or medical references, not in anti-porn campaigns. I provided those for you on page 4. There are many more. The other sources I have provided are hardly anti-porn campaigns. They are reputable people and institutions actively engaged in helping addicts and their loved ones. Perhaps you could expand your interests to those. Of course there are varying opinions and contending stats and studies. It's new territory being explored. As I said, there is a tidal change going on with regard to medical and scientific attitudes toward porn. I am old enough to remember doctors and scientists being used and quoted by the tobacco industry. Why not go to a recovery meeting and see for yourself? What do you have to lose? Seriously. Edited March 6, 2017 by Bernard Gui
MormonVideoGame Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I provided those for you on page 4. There are many more. The other sources I have provided are hardly anti-porn campaigns. They are reputable people and institutions actively engaged in Selfgrowth com, overcomingpornography com, and LDS org are not medical institutions. Do you know what scientific and medical references are? 4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: As I said, there is a tidal change going on with regard to medical and scientific attitudes toward porn. I am old enough to remember doctors and scientists being used and quoted by the tobacco industry. So if you ever have an emergency you won't go to a hospital? Yes, the tobacco industry was extremely biased, just like overcomingpornography com.
MormonVideoGame Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 18 hours ago, Calm said: A married person can have a sexual addiction, btw. The average visit was 9 minutes in 2016. Where is the evidence (statistically) that porn is highly addictive? Very few people watch porn for hours every day, "a clearly self-destructive behavior that’s often more about the internet than about porn" Did you read? Quote "North American neuroscientists Prause and Pfaus recently published a study in which pornography use was related to greater sexual desire for one’s partner" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26185674 http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/skeptical-of-the-porn-skeptics/ https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/201112/porn-why-does-my-man-watch-is-he-sex-addict http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stacey-nelkin/5-reasons-why-watching-po_b_2766968.html
Bernard Gui Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) 35 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: Selfgrowth com, overcomingpornography com, and LDS org are not medical institutions. Do you know what scientific and medical references are? So if you ever have an emergency you won't go to a hospital? Yes, the tobacco industry was extremely biased, just like overcomingpornography com. On page 4 there are two citations with references to science and medicine, but you ignore them and go after what you appear to think are conspiratorial efforts to destroy the virtuous porn industry by yokels and zealots. Not a bad conspiracy to be engaged in, by the way. I'm puzzled by this irrational attack on individuals and groups who are trying to deal with the well-documented destruction caused by pornography. There will be conflicting stats, studies, and opinions. Remember this day...there is a tidal change. It's a new ballgame. Go to a meeting. Meet some folks. You have nothing to lose except some animus where none is needed. Edited March 6, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
CV75 Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 13 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: The average visit was 9 minutes in 2016. Where is the evidence (statistically) that porn is highly addictive? Very few people watch porn for hours every day, "a clearly self-destructive behavior that’s often more about the internet than about porn" That average 9-minute visit and what is done during that visit yields a few-second tolerance for authentic human intimacy, particularly a sexual component. It doesn't take hours a day on porn to ruin marriage relationships to the extent that hours a day on the Internet (or any otehr substitute) become a refuge. 1
MormonVideoGame Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: On page 4 there are two citations with references to science and medicine, but you ignore them and go after what you appear to think are conspiratorial efforts to destroy the virtuous porn industry by yokels and zealots. I don't know which ones your are talking about. Are you talking about Anita Chandra, Steven C. Martino, Rebecca L. Collins, Marc N. Elliott, Sandra H. Berry, David E. Kanouse, and Angela Miu, “Does Watching Sex on Television Predict Teen Pregnancy? Findings from a Longitudinal Survey of Youth,” Pediatrics 122 (2008): 1047-1054 (1052)??? Two problems: 1. Sex on Television in not necessarily porn, you haven't seen the Titanic? 2. It says nothing about porn addiction. It is clear you did not read your own citations. 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: I'm puzzled by this irrational attack on individuals and groups who are trying to deal with the well-documented destruction caused by pornography. There will be conflicting stats, studies, and opinions. Well, where are the stats the prove porn is highly addictive?
Bernard Gui Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) 59 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: I don't know which ones your are talking about. Are you talking about Anita Chandra, Steven C. Martino, Rebecca L. Collins, Marc N. Elliott, Sandra H. Berry, David E. Kanouse, and Angela Miu, “Does Watching Sex on Television Predict Teen Pregnancy? Findings from a Longitudinal Survey of Youth,” Pediatrics 122 (2008): 1047-1054 (1052)??? Two problems: 1. Sex on Television in not necessarily porn, you haven't seen the Titanic? 2. It says nothing about porn addiction. It is clear you did not read your own citations. Well, where are the stats the prove porn is highly addictive? Enough waste of time and bandwidth. Go to a meeting. Listen to addicts, then get back to me. I'll be happy to talk with you then. Remember, hope and healing are available. Edited March 6, 2017 by Bernard Gui 2
dberrie2000 Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said: Well, where are the stats the prove porn is highly addictive? I can well remember when cigarette smokers and producers asked for the proof that smoking caused cancer. 2
MormonVideoGame Posted March 6, 2017 Posted March 6, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, dberrie2000 said: I can well remember when cigarette smokers and producers asked for the proof that smoking caused cancer. Let me give you some real stats "Approximately 7.2 percent or 17 million adults in the United States ages 18 and older had an AUD [Alcohol Use Disorder] in 2012" - niaaa How many US adults have a Porn Use Disorder? None. How many see it for 4+ hours every day? about 0.01%. Compare 0.01% to 7.2%. There are probably more people addicted to politics and facebook. Just note that 0.01% is 0.0001, or about 31,000 Americans in the entire country. Most doctors at the time did believe smoking caused cancer, but the Tobbacco industry was spreading propaganda. 2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Enough waste of time and bandwidth. Go to a meeting. Listen to addicts, then get back to me. I'll be happy to talk with you then. Yes, because you won't bother reading studies like this one https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140212112843.htm Edited March 6, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
Bernard Gui Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said: Let me give you some real stats "Approximately 7.2 percent or 17 million adults in the United States ages 18 and older had an AUD [Alcohol Use Disorder] in 2012" - niaaa How many US adults have a Porn Use Disorder? None. How many see it for 4+ hours every day? about 0.01%. Compare 0.01% to 7.2%. There are probably more people addicted to politics and facebook. Just note that 0.01% is 0.0001, or about 31,000 Americans in the entire country. Most doctors at the time did believe smoking caused cancer, but the Tobbacco industry was spreading propaganda. Yes, because you won't bother reading studies like this one https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140212112843.htm Go to a meeting. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Get some first-hand knowledge and leave the internet alone. Don't be shy or afraid. It is a great experience....perhaps among the most spiritual meetings in the Church. They are where the Atonement is applied in the nitty-gritty. Go. Come back and tell us what you learned (respecting the anonymity of the meeting and not sharing details of who or what you heard, of course.) I will agree to read your www.htm if you will agree to go to an addiction recovery meeting for porn addicts. Then we can compare notes. Give me an idea where you are located and I can find a meeting for you. Go. Edited March 7, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
MormonVideoGame Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Go to a meeting. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Get some first-hand knowledge and leave the internet alone. Don't be shy or afraid. It is a great experience....perhaps among the most spiritual meetings in the Church. They are where the Atonement is applied in the nitty-gritty. Go. Come back and tell us what you learned (respecting the anonymity of the meeting and not sharing details of who or what you heard, of course.) I will agree to read your www.htm if you will agree to go to an addiction recovery meeting for porn addicts. Then we can compare notes. Give me an idea where you are located and I can find a meeting for you. Go. "I'm sorry but I have to take a few minutes to stop laughing" - Bernard Gui You are not interested. Edited March 7, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
Bernard Gui Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 22 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: "I'm sorry but I have to take a few minutes to stop laughing" - Bernard Gui You are not interested. Laughing, of course, at your admonition not to trust everything I read on the Internet, but then you giving me all kinds of stuff to read on the Internet. That is funny, don't you think? I'm quite serious about addiction. I've devoted nine years to help fight it and deal with the effects it has had on my family and families of numerous friends and strangers. I speak from experience and study. Is your knowledge based just on reading some internet sites? Have you ever talked with someone addicted to pornography or with their wives and parents? If you haven't how can you pass judgment? I have, many, many times. It's become an all-too familiar and tragic story. And I am very serious about you attending a group meeting or maybe even a few so you can see with your own eyes what it is that you are denying exists. Why do you resist? If will cost you nothing but a few hours of your time. I will happily discuss your observations.
MormonVideoGame Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Laughing, of course, at your admonition not to trust everything I read on the Internet, but then you giving me all kinds of stuff to read on the Internet. That is funny, don't you think?. No. Do you understand the difference between a research paper and a typical internet website? 4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: And I am very serious about you attending a group meeting or maybe even a few so you can see with your own eyes what it is that you are denying exists. CFR
Bernard Gui Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 29 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: No. Do you understand the difference between a research paper and a typical internet website? CFR Yes. I provided several. CFR what? Go to a meeting. Talk with someone. So, a wife comes to a support group. She's suicidal because her husband's addiction to porn has led him to leave her and her children for a woman he met on line. The addiction was discovered during the inquiry surrounding his abandoning the family. He had started using porn as a child, continued during his teen years, left it for a while to serve a mission, came home and resumed it, kept it hidden for 15 years of marriage and through various leadership positions in the church, but even faced with the loss of his family and church membership could not stop. Why don't you go listen to people who tell this story. Then we'll talk about your websites. Until you have done this, you have 0 credibility. Please, go to a meeting. Why do you not want to go? You don't even acknowledge the invitation. Come on. Edited March 7, 2017 by Bernard Gui
Calm Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, Tacenda said: I read the other day that the church needs to become clear on what is porn addiction. Because someone that may have viewed some porn fleetingly, might turn into a hard core user if the individual figures he/she has sinned, might as well go all out. In the past I would have had strong doubts anyone would do that, but since I had a friend who essentially did that in her marriage based on something her husband had once said (as far as I could tell just in passing), I now accept that people don't always judge the impact of their actions even remotely sensibly, but can indeed inflate the importance to that extreme..especially teens and young adults. (My friend's situation was possibly somewhat realistic for her husband in the past, but thankfully by then he was willing to work with her and they were able to heal their divide). I am not sure if the Church can prevent that type of person from drawing that type of conclusion (such a black and white thinker is rarely influenced by nuances or qualifications, but see everything as all or nothing), but I think it would be always helpful to try and be realistic about impacts as well as emphasize repentance is for everyone. I think it might be helpful rather than using the term "addiction", which means different things to different people, to talk in terms of specific behaviors. Edited March 7, 2017 by Calm 2
RevTestament Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 22 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: Listen, I am only interested in scientific or medical references, not in anti-porn campaigns. If you are LDS you should be interested in what the Lord has to say about it, rather than worrying about science. D&C 42:18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come. 19 And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die. 20 Thou shalt not steal; and he that stealeth and will not repent shall be cast out. 21 Thou shalt not lie; he that lieth and will not repent shall be cast out. 22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else. 23 And he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and if he repents not he shall be cast out. On 3/3/2017 at 9:55 PM, RevTestament said: ... The Church cannot ignore it. Leaving users in major callings is simply not an option as far as I am concerned. The whole structure of church revelation would break down. Doctrine and Covenants 1:31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; That means He does not look upon two unmarried people copulating or performing other sex acts with any allowance because it is sin. To support pornography is to not only look upon sin with allowance but is to support it. Those who do so will not have the gift of the Holy Spirit, according to our Lord. Hence, he will not have revelation. Thus he is unfit for Church leadership. And actually, if it continues without repentance the appropriate Church response is excommunication. 1
MormonVideoGame Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Yes. I provided several. about other things not related to addiction. 11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: She's suicidal because her husband's addiction to porn has led him to leave her and her children for a woman he met on line. CFR that porn made him meet a woman online. Correlation is not causation. I know someone that left his wife for someone he met at the church, doesn't that mean the church is to blame? 11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Please, go to a meeting. Why do you not want to go? You don't even acknowledge the invitation. Come on. Maybe, but uncontrolled experiments are not very reliable. Ever heard of cognitive biases? Edited March 7, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
Bernard Gui Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 2 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: about other things not related to addiction. CFR that porn made him meet a woman online. Correlation is not causation. I know someone that left his wife for someone he met at the church, doesn't that mean the church is to blame? Maybe, but uncontrolled experiments are not very reliable. Ever heard of cognitive biases? You should be more discriminating in your use of the CFR. So, we can safely conclude that you have no first-hand information on this issue, that you have no desire to inform yourself by listening to real people, and that you are stuck in an irrational state of denial. Why you defend indefensible pornography remains a mystery. go to a meeting Last word.
MormonVideoGame Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 Just now, Bernard Gui said: . Why you defend indefensible "Last word." How objective! and you go to a "Secular Sexuality" meeting.
Bernard Gui Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 46 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: "Last word." How objective! and you go to a "Secular Sexuality" meeting. I have no idea what you mean by that, but it sounds insulting. I have resisted the urge to call you out, but I'll do this instead. You come across as kind of a cocky tough guy, sure of yourself, not afraid of a fight. Let's see you put yourself on the line in a way that you can really prove who you are. Let's see how far you are willing to go to stick to your guns. It's one thing to take pot shots at posters from the safety and anonymity of a discussion board. It's another thing to face the music you are playing. So here's the deal; Go to an open meeting of any group that supports porn addicts or their loved ones. Doesn't have to be LDS. Introduce yourself by your first name and be welcomed by the group. Listen respectfully to the presentation and discussion. When it comes to sharing time tell them what you are saying here. Be bold and assertive. Be precise in your words. Let them know exactly how you feel about porn addiction, how it does not exist, how it has not messed up their lives, the contempt you have for them and their pretend problem, the pretend suffering of their families and friends, share the benefits of porn as you have here. Ask them for proof that porn has caused the chaos in their lives. Then come back here and share your experience. Do you have the courage of your convictions? Prove it. Consider this a great big CFR. Edited March 7, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
MormonVideoGame Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: I have no idea what you mean by that, but it sounds insulting. I have resisted the urge to call you out, but I'll do this instead. https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/secular-sexuality-w-dr-darrel-ray/id914276437?mt= I am done!
Bernard Gui Posted March 7, 2017 Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/secular-sexuality-w-dr-darrel-ray/id914276437?mt= I am done! As per your instructions, I don't' believe everything I read on the internet. And something about confirmational bias...... You have a standing CFR. It appears you are not as sure of your position as you pretend. What do you have to lose? Here's another deal. If we are in somewhat close proximity, I offer to attend a meeting with you. Share your thoughts there... You can test your ideas about the people in the meetings. See how they feel about it. You may come away with a different perspective. I guarantee it will be one of the most rewarding experiences of your life. You can verify your assertions. I'll be there with you. You have absolutely nothing to lose. We can report here what happened. Edited March 8, 2017 by Bernard Gui
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