Losing Millennials

[Five Solas]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I think we are losing the same but for different reasons. Back in the day nobody really talked historical problems, I think back then(late 1990's early 2000's) people went inactive for social reasons or no support from home, feelings of unworthiness 

Interesting.  Do you think those previous reasons were addressed/resolved by LDS leadership?  Or have young people merely stopped obsessing about their worthiness/unworthiness and have shifted their interest from introspection to external matters (i.e., the LDS Church itself & its history).  And if so, do you see this as a positive development?

--Erik

[rodheadlee]

You forgot to ask how many in the survey were from Utah. It's always been hard to get the younger generation into the Church in California and places like that. it'll skew your survey.

[SteveO]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So saith the elders of every generation in the history of the world.

“Our Earth is degenerate in these later days; there are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book and the end of the world is evidently approaching.” Assyrian, 28th or 29th Century BC

“I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient of restraint.” - Hesiod, Greece, 8th Century BC

"Children began to be the tyrants, not the slaves, of their households. They no longer rose from their seats when an elder entered the room; they contradicted their parents, chattered before company, gobbled up the dainties at table, and committed various offences against Hellenic tastes, such as crossing their legs. They tyrannised over the paidagogoi and schoolmasters." - Plato

“Our young men have grown slothful. There is not a single honorable occupation for which they will toil night and day. They sing and dance and grow effeminate and curl their hair and learn womanish tricks of speech; they are as languid as women and deck themselves out with unbecoming ornaments. Without strength, without energy, they add nothing during life to the gifts with which they were born — then they complain of their lot.” - Seneca, 1st Century, Rome

“The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no respect for their parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they alone know everything and what passes for wisdom in us foolishness in them. As for the girls, they are foolish and immodest and unwomanly in speech, behavior, and dress.” Peter the Hermit, France, 11th Century

So either every generation in the history of the world is filled with horrid children that will ruin everything or older people are just universally grumpy and view their own youth with rose-colored glasses. I am betting on the latter.

And whatever happened to the Assyrian, Greek, and Roman societies?  History repeats itself, and we are blind if we think our current course won't lead us to undesirable destinations.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

And whatever happened to the Assyrian, Greek, and Roman societies?

They didn't build a tall enough border wall to keep out illegal immigrants?

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

History repeats itself, and we are blind if we think our current course won't lead us to undesirable destinations.

History does not repeat itself. That is an untrue cliche intended as a sop to people who watch World War II documentaries convinced they are acting as society's conscience to ensure that fascism and the Charlie Chaplin mustache never make a comeback. History does sometimes rhyme but repeat? No.

Your argument that those civilizations fell is a little odd. The Assyrian Empire lasted nearly two millenia aand that complaint about the wicked young comes from near the beginning of the Empire over a millenium earlier. That would be like blaming Charlemagne for France's defeat in the Second World War. The Greeks and the Romans also lasted a long time after most of those complaints. Add to that that you can find the same complaints throughout US history and we are still here. The older generation have been crying wolf since the beginning of time.

Edited July 24, 2016 by The Nehor

[Yirgacheffe]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

You forgot to ask how many in the survey were from Utah. It's always been hard to get the younger generation into the Church in California and places like that. it'll skew your survey.

Why is it only the millennials in Utah that count?

[Tacenda]

Below is a new podcast about millennials that is right up this topic's alley.

http://www.mormonmatters.org/  "The Next Mormons"

Standout Mormon author, scholar, and commentator Jana Riess is working on her next book, which will focus on Mormonism’s “Millennial” generation (those now between ages 18 and 35) and their spirituality, religiosity, views and attitudes toward aligning with institutions, and much, much more. It will be titled The Next Mormons. In service of that project, she is actively interviewing many, many people, and has just this week launched a Kickstarter campaign to fund a massive, representative national survey of four generations of Mormons, seeking to find key areas of difference that can help illuminate what is occurring among the generation of Latter-day Saints just entering serious adulthood. This episode shares Jana’s vision for the importance of these interviews and studies and the information they will yield, but Jana and co-panelistsDavid Campbell and Derrick Clements, along with Mormon Matters hostDan Wotherspoon, talk about several themes and trends we are now beginning to see come forward among Millennials. The discussions are fascinating, ranging from Millennial “seeking” to attitudes towards marriage and family, as well as experiences in church settings such as temples, sacrament and other meetings, singles and mid-singles wards, etc. It is enough to definitely wet our whistle and become even more thirsty for more information to come forth, especially through Jana’s capable, enjoyable, wonderful head, heart, and hands.

 

 

[SteveO]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

They didn't build a tall enough border wall to keep out illegal immigrants?

Funny.  Unfettered absorption of Germanic tribes into Roman territory worked out swell didn't it?  

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

History does not repeat itself. That is an untrue cliche intended as a sop to people who watch World War II documentaries convinced they are acting as society's conscience to ensure that fascism and the Charlie Chaplin mustache never make a comeback. History does sometimes rhyme but repeat? No.

Your argument that those civilizations fell is a little odd. The Assyrian Empire lasted nearly two millenia aand that complaint about the wicked young comes from near the beginning of the Empire over a millenium earlier. That would be like blaming Charlemagne for France's defeat in the Second World War. The Greeks and the Romans also lasted a long time after most of those complaints. Add to that that you can find the same complaints throughout US history and we are still here. The older generation have been crying wolf since the beginning of time.

You're right.  Complaints have been made about every generation.  

The better term instead of "fall"of a civilization should be "transformation" of a civilization into something else.

Scarcity, crime, overpopulation, tribalism, and disease are impacting the social fabric of our world--most notably the current generation.  I think in a general way, societies almost always go by way of suicide--the infamous fifth column.  It's a slow decay, but you know, the sins of the fathers tend to accumulate over time.

For example, millenial marriage rates should concern people.  Our unwillingness to have children should as well.  Not because we're lazy good for nothing's with commitment issues, but because I think previous generations have squandered a lot of our economic futures and opportunities.  We're definitely a different generation, and our way of life and the way we choose to go about it will be unique.

I had my mom tell me last week how I don't know what real poverty was like.  Except when she was 27, with four kids, and "dirt poor", she had a farmhouse and 20 acres of land to her name.  I'm 30 and living comfortably in an apartment with my wife.  No kids.  Im not saying that my generation is bad.  But I think we are going to have a transformative impact on the way things will be done here going forward.

By the way, I don't think fascism is going to make a big comeback.  Michael Burry seems to think water commodities are going to be a big thing--with good reason it seems--ask any expert in Near East studies and they'll say the next massive war fought in the next 20-25 years is going to be over water...so yeah, our priorities, focuses, and challenges will be of a far different sort.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2016 by SteveO

[Duncan]

3 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Interesting.  Do you think those previous reasons were addressed/resolved by LDS leadership?  Or have young people merely stopped obsessing about their worthiness/unworthiness and have shifted their interest from introspection to external matters (i.e., the LDS Church itself & its history).  And if so, do you see this as a positive development?

--Erik

well, back in pre internet days it would be harder to address stuff and now you can click to someone who knows or find stuff online both positive and negative. I think it would have been much harder to find "anti mormon" stuff in say 1995 when it's all books and printed material unless you physically went to a store or bought it from a catalogue, but you would have had to know the place existed. I don't think they have worried less but I wonder out loud if people just are apathetic about worthiness or have re defined it. When I was young we were told every bad thing pretty much needs to be told to the Bishop and now it's only stuff that affects your membership otherwise you can get help or solace from other sources. I remember a talk off hand from Elder Holland, can't remember which but it seems that people back then and maybe to this day but they expect too much from Bishops and Stake Presidents.But now these brethren are hopefully trained to re direct people to professionals to to other help.

Edited July 24, 2016 by Duncan

[thesometimesaint]

2 hours ago, SteveO said:

And whatever happened to the Assyrian, Greek, and Roman societies?  History repeats itself, and we are blind if we think our current course won't lead us to undesirable destinations.

History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

[california boy]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

They didn't build a tall enough border wall to keep out illegal immigrants?

History does not repeat itself. That is an untrue cliche intended as a sop to people who watch World War II documentaries convinced they are acting as society's conscience to ensure that fascism and the Charlie Chaplin mustache never make a comeback. History does sometimes rhyme but repeat? No.

Your argument that those civilizations fell is a little odd. The Assyrian Empire lasted nearly two millenia aand that complaint about the wicked young comes from near the beginning of the Empire over a millenium earlier. That would be like blaming Charlemagne for France's defeat in the Second World War. The Greeks and the Romans also lasted a long time after most of those complaints. Add to that that you can find the same complaints throughout US history and we are still here. The older generation have been crying wolf since the beginning of time.

You are so dead on.  People that talk about the fall of those civilizations have absolutely no understanding of history.  None.  Or they would never make such a remark.  We will see where the United States in in 800 years and then compare them to the Assyrian, Greek and Roman civilizations.

[california boy]

When I was a kid, we believed that everything the church taught us was true.  We trusted church leaders.  And even with the priesthood ban, we believed that what the church leaders were telling us came from God.  The biggest problem whether you like it or not is that the church has lost that innocent trust.  The millennial generation knows full well that all of what was being taught just wasn't true or was only a partial truth.  How can you trust a religion that tells even partial truth on things that can be tested and verified.  Why would you trust them on things that can not be verified.

In1978 the Priesthood ban was done away with.  But to many millennial gay has become the new black.  But this time around, they are not so willing to swallow how the church treats gays as we were accepting of how the church treated blacks. It is much more difficult for the church to sell the belief that God doesn't want gays to marry in the temple this time around as it was for the church to sell that God doesn't want blacks marrying in the temple.

And you are right, religion in general is having the same problem.  Because they also taught stories in the Bible that they claimed were the word of God.  But those stories don't hold up to what can be verified either.  I get that some still believe those narratives, but guess what, millenials don't.  And that is the problem.    So what is happening is millenials are not automatically turning to religion.  If what religion is telling them is not always true, then why give that way of life a priority.  Why not look at other paths that may work just as well if not better in giving them a productive and happy life.

Religion to some extent has become it's own worse enemy.  When the conservative right got into politics in the 1980's they made religion political.  And when you identify so completely with one party, you also get identified with all the other stands that political party takes whether that was your intention or not.  But what if you don't agree with that parties politics?   Many find modern religion to be decisive, not inclusive, full of prejudice and mean spirited.  Whether that is true or not depends on how you interpret their message.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

Since Easter 2014, we have had 20 convert baptisms in our ward. Of those, exactly 13 have been 'born 1982 or thereafter'.

[bluebell]

32 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Since Easter 2014, we have had 20 convert baptisms in our ward. Of those, exactly 13 have been 'born 1982 or thereafter'.

Maybe it's a US problem?

[rodheadlee]

7 hours ago, Yirgacheffe said:

Why is it only the millennials in Utah that count?

They all count but the results will be skewed.

[Tacenda]

10 hours ago, Duncan said:

well, back in pre internet days it would be harder to address stuff and now you can click to someone who knows or find stuff online both positive and negative. I think it would have been much harder to find "anti mormon" stuff in say 1995 when it's all books and printed material unless you physically went to a store or bought it from a catalogue, but you would have had to know the place existed. I don't think they have worried less but I wonder out loud if people just are apathetic about worthiness or have re defined it. When I was young we were told every bad thing pretty much needs to be told to the Bishop and now it's only stuff that affects your membership otherwise you can get help or solace from other sources. I remember a talk off hand from Elder Holland, can't remember which but it seems that people back then and maybe to this day but they expect too much from Bishops and Stake Presidents.But now these brethren are hopefully trained to re direct people to professionals to to other help.

I remember way back, coming across a book at the library that appeared to be against Joseph Smith, maybe even about polygamy, that I felt bad about myself for even reading the first page and had to quickly put it back on the shelf.

[carbon dioxide]

10 hours ago, california boy said:

You are so dead on.  People that talk about the fall of those civilizations have absolutely no understanding of history.  None.  Or they would never make such a remark.  We will see where the United States in in 800 years and then compare them to the Assyrian, Greek and Roman civilizations.

We will have to watch from the Spirit World as we will all be dead.  All signs to me point to the 21st century being a very bad century for our country and others around the world.  The 20th century saw some hard times but nothing like what is coming.

[Jeanne]

16 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I'm a millienial. You'll have a much better chance starting a religion based on yoga or zen with hangouts at lulumon athletica. And whole foods. Millennials are making churches out of new trends.

Good one!!

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I remember way back, coming across a book at the library that appeared to be against Joseph Smith, maybe even about polygamy, that I felt bad about myself for even reading the first page and had to quickly put it back on the shelf.

This is a profound statement when you think of "putting things on a shelf".

[strappinglad]

The Mayans were correct in that they viewed the world and life as being cyclical. Individual lives, the lives of communities , the histories of nations, are all cyclical in nature. The BoM shows a circular pattern of wickedness, destruction, repentance, prosperity, pride, corruption... rinse and repeat. Some cycles are only a few years in duration, some take centuries , and some may take 100,000 years. Some are like a washing machine that is just slightly out of balance. As  the drum turns, the balance gets more and more pronounced until the machine is shaken off its base and something breaks. Nature itself has a way of bringing mankind back to basics. It uses earthquakes, fires , drought, floods, to reset our thinking from inward to outward. Quite often a ' me ' generation' is followed by an ' us ' generation '.

  Last night I watched a movie made in 1983 called "The Dead Zone " with Christoper Walken  and Martin Sheen. Martin played a candidate for US Senate. His stump speech could have been given in 2016 as a trump speech. The more things change, the more they stay the same !

[Five Solas]

16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

History does not repeat itself. That is an untrue cliche intended as a sop to people who watch World War II documentaries convinced they are acting as society's conscience to ensure that fascism and the Charlie Chaplin mustache never make a comeback...

Couch potatoes have feelings too, Nehor.  You should try being more sensitive...

;0)

--Erik

[cinepro]

4 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

We will have to watch from the Spirit World as we will all be dead.  All signs to me point to the 21st century being a very bad century for our country and others around the world.  The 20th century saw some hard times but nothing like what is coming.

What are you referring to specifically?  Certainly there may be "bad times" ahead for some people, but compared to how humans have treated each other over the past few centuries in general, I think a strong argument can be made that for most people, this is the best the world has ever been and it will keep getting better.

[Five Solas]

23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I don't think the situation has changed much in terms of actual belief. Instead I think it is becoming less likely to have little or no faith and remain culturally Mormon. When I was a teenager many of my friends did not really believe at all or just had no interest in religion but were active mostly for the social benefits. About 10 years ago they all dropped out.

I think it would be more accurate to suggest that it is less attractive to be a cultural Mormon which I agree with completely.

That's a really interesting idea.  In Seattle's example where the YSA wards have been reduced from 4 to 2, you're suggesting the number of honest-to-goodness, worthy, believing members in the local YSA program is actually unchanged.  That what existed previously was a high percentage of fakers (a.k.a., cultural Mormons) and these now find their "social benefits" elsewhere. 

Having been personally involved in the local program throughout the 1990's and into the early part of the last decade when it reached its peak in terms of membership, a 50% faker number seems high, but it certainly wasn't zero (I guess you could say I was one).  What do you think the cultural Mormon ratio is in your ward, Nehor?  Do you think it is lower now than 10, 15, or 20 years ago? 

Do others think this explanation has merit?  

Also, curious if you think the "social benefits" have been in some way been reduced. 

--Erik

[Glenn101]

17 minutes ago, cinepro said:

What are you referring to specifically?  Certainly there may be "bad times" ahead for some people, but compared to how humans have treated each other over the past few centuries in general, I think a strong argument can be made that for most people, this is the best the world has ever been and it will keep getting better.

I believe that CO2 was maybe referring to the spate of mass shootings here in the U.S. and worldwide that seem to be escalating, the ongoing police shootings of unarmed civilians, the seeming war on policemen, the ISIS rampage, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram etc. Maybe even looking back to 9/11 in the start of the century. It does seem that violent acts against masses of people are escalating.

Glenn

Edited July 24, 2016 by Glenn101

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, Glenn101 said:

I believe that CO2 was maybe referring to the spate of mass shootings here in the U.S. and worldwide that seem to be escalating, the ongoing police shootings of unarmed civilians, the seeming war on policemen, the ISIS rampage, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram etc. Maybe even looking back to 9/11 in the start of the century. It does seem that violent acts against masses of people are escalating.

Glenn

No.  The media blows these mass shooting out of proportion.  The media presents ISIS as a big threat even though the odds of the average American being killed by ISIS is about the same as a bolt of lightning.  Limiting my focus simply on America, I see big structural problems that await us like the debtt at 20 trillion and climbing and liabilities that stands around 100 trillion.  This is going to be a big problem in the future.  The medical field is going to have problems.  The increase in antibiotic resistant bacteria is going to make routine medical procedures more dangerous.  We will see far more people die of infections in the 21st century than in the 20th century unless something is done to stop this.  We have natural disasters coming up that we have never seen before.  If all of this global warming hype is true, we will see more floods and drought and famine.  More populations will be displaced around the world due to water and political issues.  This means more wars and more internal disorder in nations including our own.  All of the major earthquake faults in America are due.  From the San Andreas, New Madrid, Wasatch, the big one off Washington and Oregon, and even the fault line under New York City are all due or past due.  We can easily see two or three of them going off in this century causing damage we have never seen in American history.  We have increase social disorder in America and political division.  Everything is pointing to the fact that the 21st century is going to be far more exciting or difficult (depending on perspective) than then 19th or 20th century.  In my perspective, we are living in a very mild and peaceful time in comparison of what is coming.  I believe 50 years from now the people will look back at 2016 and say it was a nice, calm time to live.

Add on:  I believe this is much of what Elder Nelson referred to

"I urgently plead with each one of us to live up to our privileges as bearers of the priesthood. In a coming day, only those men who have taken their priesthood seriously, by diligently seeking to be taught by the Lord Himself, will be able to bless, guide, protect, strengthen, and heal others. Only a man who has paid the price for priesthood power will be able to bring miracles to those he loves and keep his marriage and family safe, now and throughout eternity." —President Russell M. Nelson, April 2016 General Conference, Priesthood Session

Today we really don't need to priesthood for most illnesses.  We just go to the doctor.  Imagine a day when the a person is not able to go to a doctor due to economic and social collapse.  People are on their own.  I believe that day is coming and it will be in the 21st century,.

Edited July 25, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[Five Solas]

20 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So did my Generation X and all the generations before. The lyrics change but the music is still the same.

The name "Generation X" (often shortened to Gen-X) comes from a novel by Douglas Coupland in 1991.  Coupland himself attributed the term to an English punk rock band fronted by Billy Idol in the late 1970's.  Whether the music is still the same (or even stands the test of time)--I leave you, dear reader, to decide. 

:0)

Generation X, "Ready, Steady, Go"

--Erik