Losing Millennials

[Rivers]

I am still amazed that all of my siblings(including myself) are still in the church.  I have a hard time being optimistic about my parents' grandchildren.

 

Edited July 26, 2016 by Rivers

[Jeanne]

22 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Jeanne you're awesome I would never.

Thank you!

[jkwilliams]

26 minutes ago, Rivers said:

I am still amazed that all of my siblings(including myself) are still in the church.  I have a hard time being optimistic about my parents' grandchildren.

I suppose it depends on the family. Of the 4 of us surviving siblings, 3 are out of the church, though my older brother and sister left many years before I stopped attending. It's not as if my parents did something wrong or that they somehow did things right with my sister who is active in the church.

[Gray]

8 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I suppose it depends on the family. Of the 4 of us surviving siblings, 3 are out of the church, though my older brother and sister left many years before I stopped attending. It's not as if my parents did something wrong or that they somehow did things right with my sister who is active in the church.

The activity rate among my siblings is 30% (we're gen-x and gen-y), which I guess is slightly below the activity rate of the whole church. 

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Gray said:

The activity rate among my siblings is 30% (we're gen-x and gen-y), which I guess is slightly below the activity rate of the whole church. 

I'm on the border of boomers and Gen-X (born in November 1964), but I'm the youngest of the surviving 4 (my two younger brothers are deceased). My brother pretty much walked away from the church when he left home after high school. When he was in his thirties, his wife somehow became interested in the church and was baptized. They were active a couple of years, but she disliked the culture and lost interest. My sister attended church for a couple of years in college, but she was treated rather badly and quit attending because she didn't feel welcome. She converted to Judaism while I was on my mission. I was active until my early forties. My older sister is a Relief Society president at the moment. So in my family the rate is 25%.

[Duncan]

Not to sound arrogant and I don't think it was anything my parents did or didn't do. We never had FHE, we never read scriptures as a family but we always ate dinner together and my Mum was raised UCC and so every night she recited a United Church prayer for dinner, "for what we are about to receive may the Lord make us truly thankful amen" But everyone in our family is active. My 3 siblings, their two spouses and my folks. So far all 6 grandnuggets  come to church. So as of right now that's the sitch with our family. I think my two bro in laws are just apathetic towards history and things like that.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

Not to sound arrogant and I don't think it was anything my parents did or didn't do. We never had FHE, we never read scriptures as a family but we always ate dinner together and my Mum was raised UCC and so every night she recited a United Church prayer for dinner, "for what we are about to receive may the Lord make us truly thankful amen" But everyone in our family is active. My 3 siblings, their two spouses and my folks. So far all 6 grandnuggets  come to church. So as of right now that's the sitch with our family. I think my two bro in laws are just apathetic towards history and things like that.

When I first told my wife about my faith crisis she was not only angry with me but also my parents. Even though she knew it wasn't reasonable, she blamed them for raising me in such a conservative, black and white world. My family always took the church very seriously and so I did too. That's not necessarily a bad thing but I didn't understand the first thing about nuance, or even consider the possibility that the history and truth claims I'd been taught was incomplete, that I felt terribly betrayed by the church. I experienced a faith and identity crisis because my whole world had been structured around the church which didn't seem to trust me with complete and truthful information.

I raised my family in a similar way. We had family scripture study daily, family prayer morning, night and meals, FHE every week, hours of additional meetings and church activities, seminary etc. I was all in. So was my wife. It was all I knew. I had read enough church history to think I understood but apparently I was reading the wrong books.

All of this to say that I grew up in and also grew my family up in a very devout atmosphere, but no matter how devout my family was, no matter how strong my testimony and my devotion, it was based on a foundation made up at least partially of sand. When greater truth contradicted what I had always known, the foundation washed away. A few of my siblings have had the same experience as I. We all still attend and participate but it will never be like it was.

Sometimes I wonder if the ultra-devout are most susceptible to feelings of betrayal. I don't mean that as any kind of judgment on anyone or group but I think one can only feel betrayed by someone/thing they truly love and value.

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

When I first told my wife about my faith crisis she was not only angry with me but also my parents. Even though she knew it wasn't reasonable, she blamed them for raising me in such a conservative, black and white world. My family always took the church very seriously and so I did too. That's not necessarily a bad thing but I didn't understand the first thing about nuance, or even consider the possibility that the history and truth claims I'd been taught was incomplete, that I felt terribly betrayed by the church. I experienced a faith and identity crisis because my whole world had been structured around the church which didn't seem to trust me with complete and truthful information.

I raised my family in a similar way. We had family scripture study daily, family prayer morning, night and meals, FHE every week, hours of additional meetings and church activities, seminary etc. I was all in. So was my wife. It was all I knew. I had read enough church history to think I understood but apparently I was reading the wrong books.

All of this to say that I grew up in and also grew my family up in a very devout atmosphere, but no matter how devout my family was, no matter how strong my testimony and my devotion, it was based on a foundation made up at least partially of sand. When greater truth contradicted what I had always known, the foundation washed away. A few of my siblings have had the same experience as I. We all still attend and participate but it will never be like it was.

Sometimes I wonder if the ultra-devout are most susceptible to feelings of betrayal. I don't mean that as any kind of judgment on anyone or group but I think one can only feel betrayed by someone/thing they truly love and value.

that's what I wonder too if the "declareth more than this" crowd can break and go inactive, I think Joseph Smith said it was hard to teach the saints new things that contradict their traditions, basically if you're mind is made up then accepting new truth is hard if not impossible. if you are open minded and willing to learn new things, humble then new things won't be a problem as much 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

 

Sometimes I wonder if the ultra-devout are most susceptible to feelings of betrayal. I don't mean that as any kind of judgment on anyone or group but I think one can only feel betrayed by someone/thing they truly love and value.

I don't think being ultradevout precludes being educated or able to look at history and other religious aspects with nuanced views.  The most knowledgeable individuals in the gospel I know are also some of the most devout.

[Calm]

Finishing thought:

I also know some people who by their own account were never that committed to the Church who speak of the Church betraying them.

While it is possible that as a group, the ultradevout are more likely to feel betrayed, I don't believe there is enough data to draw this conclusion at this time.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Duncan said:

that's what I wonder too if the "declareth more than this" crowd can break and go inactive, I think Joseph Smith said it was hard to teach the saints new things that contradict their traditions, basically if you're mind is made up then accepting new truth is hard if not impossible. if you are open minded and willing to learn new things, humble then new things won't be a problem as much 

Ultradevout however doesn't automatically mean closeminded.  I do think there is evidence that those who are prone to think rigidly are more likely to flip positions when confronted with something that cannot be made to fit their paradigm and cannot be dismissed as unimpotant.  I wonder if the direction pro to anti is more common then anti to pro (speaking generally, not specific to LDS).

[Five Solas]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

...

Using anecdotal evidence to conclude that "the LDS Church has a problem retaining millennials" is just irresponsible and worthless -- no better than rumormongering.

...

Your version of the LDS ideal seems cockeyed and negative to me, Erik.  Especially in a video dedicated to good child-rearing and doing acts of service.  The heavy truck was not the centerpiece, but probably is needed by anyone engaging in heavy construction (as in the video).  Since I don't need that, I have a Prius -- is that not an LDS value such as frugality and good environmental citizenship (I also have solar panels on my home FWIW)?  Why did your ideals cause you to key in on the least significant issue?  Or do you see only what you want to see?

...

I've used the word "hypothesis" to describe my position throughout, Robert.  Perhaps if you look it up, you'll realize your indignation is overblown.  Please do. 

Regarding the video, I'm not suggesting it fits every Mormon out there.  But I think it's fair to say the folks who produced & directed it knew their LDS audience and we can reasonably make inference concerning LDS values on the basis of it.  Certainly neither of us believes the director intended it as parody.  And no, you don't use a tricked-out Tundra with expensive custom rims to haul construction materials to job sites, because it sure wouldn't look nice for long!  That's a stretch rationalization on your part--and credibility would be served if you conceded the point.   

BTW, I think it's outstanding you drive a Prius.  Not exactly a top-seller in Utah, but I'll avoid formulating another hypothesis... 

;0)

And I'll gladly let you have the last word on this, if you want it. 

--Erik

[HappyJackWagon]

23 hours ago, Calm said:

Finishing thought:

I also know some people who by their own account were never that committed to the Church who speak of the Church betraying them.

While it is possible that as a group, the ultradevout are more likely to feel betrayed, I don't believe there is enough data to draw this conclusion at this time.

I don't think I was drawing any conclusions as much as offering a possibility.

But I will say that I think feelings of betrayal most often occur within a relationship that is highly valued. If I don't care much about the church, I won't care much if I find they've withheld information. I'd probably shrug it off. But if I love the church and devote my life to it, and then find out they didn't trust me with complete and accurate information, then yeah, I'm going to feel a sense of betrayal and loss for what I thought was a good relationship.

[Five Solas]

I just wanted to express a quick appreciation to the 55 board members who participated in my poll.  I actually thought the boomers might win this--but the forum is clearly dominated by members of my own generation.  No doubt explains the tone, often as not.

;0)

And we've got a couple of participants who have seen/experienced a lot.  And as for Millennials--well, this forum perhaps reflects the broader challenge facing the LDS Church.

Here's a sobering statistic for any organization--business, church, philanthropy--lacking appeal to Millennials:  According to Forbes, by 2020, they'll compose 40% of the workforce.  "If they don't want to work for you, your organization will die."

Thanks again for participating--it's given me some additional perspective on our forum.  Hopefully it has for you too.

--Erik

PS.  And for those of you sick-to-death of my 1970's pop music references (David Bowie, Billy Idol/Generation X) on the thread, a little something from the present year, Damien Jurado and his exquisite & haunting "Exit 353."  You're welcome.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I don't think I was drawing any conclusions as much as offering a possibility.

But I will say that I think feelings of betrayal most often occur within a relationship that is highly valued. If I don't care much about the church, I won't care much if I find they've withheld information. I'd probably shrug it off. But if I love the church and devote my life to it, and then find out they didn't trust me with complete and accurate information, then yeah, I'm going to feel a sense of betrayal and loss for what I thought was a good relationship.

Perhaps if one is not influenced much by others, but narratives in the community one converts to, whether one is joining a faith or leaving it and joining a community of exmembers, influence one's language.  And language influences perceptions and thus feelings.  If others around one speak of feeling betrayed when encountering new ideas, etc., there is a higher probability that one's own experience will grow to be seen in the same way.

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V46N04_204c.pdf

"The personal exit from any organization, especially those which are socially controversial, tends to produce a very specific type of narrative or story which gives an account of the individual’s expe- rience within, and eventual withdrawal from, the organization. This is especially true in the case of modern Mormonism. Vocal ex-Mormons are often motivated to produce and disseminate exit narratives, often written in the context of pop-psychological ter- minology such as recovery (e.g. “Recovery from Mormonism”), which describe in various ways their victimization at the hands of Mormonism generally and their subsequent movement from be- ing victims to victors.1

Indeed, an entire ex-Mormon movement has emerged in the past eighteen years,2 developing its own unique social structure, language, and culture in the process. Ex-Mormonism, as a sub-cul- ture, has long existed as a subset of a larger, and largely Evangeli- cal counter-cult movement. This latest ex-Mormon movement or culture, however, is characterized by its mostly secular focus and distrust, if not outright rejection, of not only LDS doctrinal literal- ism but most forms of religious theological conservatism as well.3 Recent ex-Mormon narratives do not generally describe a process of what sociological literature would describe as “leave-taking” or “switching,” but rather focus on the description of a fundamental shift away from what is perceived as rigid literalism to an un- bounded scientific rationality. In this sense, members of the ex-Mormon movement should be sociologically considered apos- tates, although I hesitate to employ this label due to the extremely negative connotations this word has within the LDS community.

The use of a word such a word as apostate in light of its signifi- cance and meaning in LDS culture may oversimplify what appear to be complex notions and descriptions of social and cultural es- trangement found within the narratives of ex-Mormons. The sig- nificance of the apostate label, as opposed to other forms of reli- gious separation will be discussed below.

This article will examine the ex-Mormon narrative as narrative and will attempt to glean insights into the culture of ex-Mormon- ism and its relationship to the modern LDS Church from this very specific literary form. This essay is not an attempt to explain the specific reasons why individuals leave (or have left) the LDS Church. As will be discussed below, after-the-fact narratives are in- herently unreliable in establishing the authenticity of actual oc- currence. Rather, this paper seeks to explore the cultural impact and mood of said narratives in an effort to identify areas and is- sues in need of further research and study....."

"The discussion of doctrinal issues and specific LDS truth claims is present in nearly all of the narratives but is generally proffered as an after-thought recitation without evidence of a deep grasp of the historical or theological questions at hand. This recitation generally follows the discussion of cultural estrange- ment and in many cases functions in the narrative to justify or val- idate the estrangement described previously. In only rare cases are doctrinal concerns and problems described as the genesis of the exit process. Rather, doctrinal and historical issues function to solidify or widen the gap between the author and Mormonism. However, doctrinal and historical concerns do seem to produce the most anger and frustration in the narratives because they evoke a sense of betrayal in the author. Such angst can be de- scribed thus: an author has been taught a particular version of Church history or has built a conceptual world-view based on LDS truth claims only to discover that (at least in the author’s mind) he/she has been “lied to” regarding key elements of Mor- mon history and doctrine. The author generally blames Church leadership for the supposed cover-up and is apt to describe the whole affair in conspiratorial terms. It is this perceived cover-up that creates the vitriolic and often irrational criticism that is pres- ent, not only in these narratives, but also in the RFM community in general. By decrying a supposed LDS Church conspiracy and cover-up, some of these narrative authors actually create or invent secret Church motives and begin to interpret every Church ac- tion, both past and present, in terms of this conspiratorial frame- work. The adoption of this conspiratorial framework impedes or prevents a complete understanding of some of the issues at hand...."

[Robert F. Smith]

On 7/26/2016 at 11:17 PM, Five Solas said:

I've used the word "hypothesis" to describe my position throughout, Robert.  Perhaps if you look it up, you'll realize your indignation is overblown.  Please do. 

Regarding the video, I'm not suggesting it fits every Mormon out there.  But I think it's fair to say the folks who produced & directed it knew their LDS audience and we can reasonably make inference concerning LDS values on the basis of it.  Certainly neither of us believes the director intended it as parody.  And no, you don't use a tricked-out Tundra with expensive custom rims to haul construction materials to job sites, because it sure wouldn't look nice for long!  That's a stretch rationalization on your part--and credibility would be served if you conceded the point.   

..........................................................................   

You saw and emphasized what you wanted to see, Erik, missing the main points entirely.  If you were familiar with real LDS values, as enunciated for example by Brigham Young, you might think differently:  Hugh Nibley, Brother Brigham Challenges the Saints, CWHN 13 (FARMS/Deseret Book, 1994).

[boblloyd91]

15 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I just wanted to express a quick appreciation to the 55 board members who participated in my poll.  I actually thought the boomers might win this--but the forum is clearly dominated by members of my own generation.  No doubt explains the tone, often as not.

;0)

And we've got a couple of participants who have seen/experienced a lot.  And as for Millennials--well, this forum perhaps reflects the broader challenge facing the LDS Church.

Here's a sobering statistic for any organization--business, church, philanthropy--lacking appeal to Millennials:  According to Forbes, by 2020, they'll compose 40% of the workforce.  "If they don't want to work for you, your organization will die."

Thanks again for participating--it's given me some additional perspective on our forum.  Hopefully it has for you too.

--Erik

PS.  And for those of you sick-to-death of my 1970's pop music references (David Bowie, Billy Idol/Generation X) on the thread, a little something from the present year, Damien Jurado and his exquisite & haunting "Exit 353."  You're welcome.

I don't think this problem is related merely to the LDS, but pretty much every church in the U.S. 

[Analytics]

This thread reminds me of something Lee Child said: "If you've been paying attention long enough, you know one thing for sure: the defining human characteristic is tribalism.  We all slice and dice the world's population into ever smaller fragments until we find a group where we feel comfortable, where we feel we truly belong.  And having arrived there, we make rules governing that group's behavior.  We want a reliable guide to how to act, we want to build bulwarks against outsiders, we want to provide a secure mechanism for belonging, we want to reassure ourselves that continuing membership is guaranteed if only we conform."

For Millennials, it is more difficult to feel comfortable in the Mormon tribe--the answers are less satisfying.  The return on the investment is lower.  Its problems are magnified.  Its relevance is questionable.  And most importantly, because of social networking, the people who don't feel comfortable can broadcast to the world why, and thereby find and create new communities.

Millennials be like:

[The Nehor]

10 minutes ago, Analytics said:

What happens next after the sheep decide they are not sheep:

 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 7/26/2016 at 1:40 PM, Duncan said:

Not to sound arrogant and I don't think it was anything my parents did or didn't do. We never had FHE, we never read scriptures as a family but we always ate dinner together and my Mum was raised UCC and so every night she recited a United Church prayer for dinner, "for what we are about to receive may the Lord make us truly thankful amen" But everyone in our family is active. My 3 siblings, their two spouses and my folks. So far all 6 grandnuggets  come to church. So as of right now that's the sitch with our family. I think my two bro in laws are just apathetic towards history and things like that.

I recognize that dinner-table prayer from one of my favorite Christmas movies of all time, "The Bishop's Wife," starring David Niven, Cary Grant, and Loretta Young.