Youth Suicide Drives Down Utah's Child Health Ranking

[rockpond]

On 6/29/2016 at 3:12 PM, Danzo said:

Since L, G, B and T are different things, it would be useful to look at the breakdown to determine any trends.

I would hate to think that rockpond is making judgments without data.

Also, since he seems to be blaming church policies for suicides, it would be nice to know the religious affiliation of the people who killed themselves.  

I am told that, contrary to popular myth, not everyone in Utah is active LDS.

 

I have no data that suggests church policies have caused suicides.

I have, however, witnessed plenty of pain and suffering that comes from church policies and incorrect teachings regarding homosexuality.

[Storm Rider]

24 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I have no data that suggests church policies have caused suicides.

I have, however, witnessed plenty of pain and suffering that comes from church policies and incorrect teachings regarding homosexuality.

You sound more and more like a politician every day.  You began this thread by tying Church policies to suicide and now you are backing away from it because the truth is you have no data.  However, ever faithful to an activist's agenda, the Church still causes pain and suffering.  

I think sin causes pain and suffering and the Church teaches that there is a way out of that life into one of joy and forgiveness.  

[Jeanne]

23 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

You sound more and more like a politician every day.  You began this thread by tying Church policies to suicide and now you are backing away from it because the truth is you have no data.  However, ever faithful to an activist's agenda, the Church still causes pain and suffering.  

I think sin causes pain and suffering and the Church teaches that there is a way out of that life into one of joy and forgiveness.  

But...it is a sin that God's people can ease the pain and suffering ..and don't.

[thesometimesaint]

Sure; all we have to do is remove homosexual acts from the sin list, and all will be great again.

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

But...it is a sin that God's people can ease the pain and suffering ..and don't.

What does that look like to you?

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

But...it is a sin that God's people can ease the pain and suffering ..and don't.

How?

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

What does that look like to you?

It looks like you have tolerance, compassion and Christlike love that envelopes everyone to be a part of the whole..

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

How?

Jesus has asked us to love and to forgive one another.  That ALL are invited to worship Him.  When you can ease anothers pain and suffering by inclusion, you should so.

It is a sin..if you don't.

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

It looks like you have tolerance, compassion and Christlike love that envelopes everyone to be a part of the whole..

Jeanne, your are going to have to be more descriptive.  If what the Church is doing now falls short, what does it look like specifically when they are doing it right?

[Jeanne]

52 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Jeanne, your are going to have to be more descriptive.  If what the Church is doing now falls short, what does it look like specifically when they are doing it right?

You don't exclude..regardless of sin or not.  You don't condemn by policies that don't help anyone and let God be the judge.  There are sinners in every congregation.  Don't take a specific group and call them lesser children of God but ease their pain and suffering like Jesus taught.

 

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

You don't exclude..regardless of sin or not.  You don't condemn by policies that don't help anyone and let God be the judge.  There are sinners in every congregation.  Don't take a specific group and call them lesser children of God but ease their pain and suffering like Jesus taught.

 

So, when Christ told the woman caught in adultery, "Go, and sin no more" is an example of too much judging?  The New Testament also teaches us to excommunicate some members of the congregation that refuse to live the standards of the Church of Jesus Christ - that admonition should be ignored also?  

This is the problem with your criticism and those similar to it.  It is also the challenge of the Church to be able to teach what is and what is not sin while accepting the sinner.  There are behaviors that are so detrimental to the Body of Christ that when repeated consistently without repentance then that member is to be cast out from the Body.  That is the Bible teaching plain and simple.

The entire Body of Christ is made of sinners.  The point is that each is striving to live Christ's teachings and to follow after him.  All who will be welcome are welcome to follow are Christ.  Those who do not accept Jesus Christ or who have no desire to follow after him - If ye love me, keep my commandments - will eventually fall away, find a lesser path, or chose to remain in sin.  

If Brother Smith is committing adultery consistently and when asked says he has no desire or reason to quit.  The two involved love each other and find real peace when they are together.  In fact, he loves his wife also and his children and sees no need to change his behavior.  He loves all of them.  This person, according to your standard (I think) we should just accept as a sinner and move forward without any judgment or condemnation.  Unfortunately, that is not the way of Jesus Christ.  Such an individual would be counseled, warned and should they continue would be excommunicated.  Everyone knows this - it is clear in everyone's mind.  

Unfortunately, there is great confusion when it comes to an individual who is gay and sexually active.  Some people just accept that they are gay and it is okay, acceptable, healthy.  They have sex with multiple individuals because that is what gay people do - it is normal and everyone accepts this about the gay lifestyle.  He has a lover that he is devoted to and yet (s)he has flings on the side and (s)he is comfortable with this lifestyle.  The Church is still teaching members that this person would be excommunicated in the same way the adulterer is/was.  

Some sins will warrant excommunication.  People continue to be deceived, continue to follow after false doctrine, and correction is required.  

[Thinking]

On 6/29/2016 at 2:55 PM, The Nehor said:

I think some people couldn't face the McCain/Palin ticket and killed themselves in shame.

Suicide is not a joking matter.

[Thinking]

My son, who is gay and trying to be faithful LDS, has contemplated suicide for the reasons suggested, among others.

[The Nehor]

32 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Suicide is not a joking matter.

 I disagree. Some attempts at suicide are quite funny.

[thesometimesaint]

21 hours ago, Jeanne said:

It looks like you have tolerance, compassion and Christlike love that envelopes everyone to be a part of the whole..

Love the sinner hate the sin.

[Danzo]

On 7/1/2016 at 8:35 AM, rockpond said:

I have, however, witnessed plenty of pain and suffering that comes from church policies 

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. "

[carbon dioxide]

On 6/29/2016 at 11:22 AM, rockpond said:

From KUER:  Youth Suicide Drives Down Utah's Child Health Ranking

From the article:

Interesting... almost doubled since 2008.  The year the church began its war against gay marriage.

The article does not say the increase is due to gay, LDS teens killing themselves.  The Church has also increased its war on porn.  Perhaps that might be a cause?

I think there are other reasons that might be more at play here.  Increased drug use is a possibility.  Also increased use of social media.  I have read articles that show that those who use social media a lot also tend to be more depressed.  Teens use social media a lot.  Social media like Facebook and Twitter were not used nearly as much prior to 2008. So if you take depressed teens, glue them to Facebook and Twitter and the rest, it will only add fuel to their depression.  There probably is not one single cause as each teen is different but I am confident we can't place the blame on the Church for upholding gospel values and standing for Christ at all times and all places even if the issue make some people uncomfortable.

Edited July 2, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[carbon dioxide]

On 6/29/2016 at 1:07 PM, rockpond said:

Prop 8 did nothing to defend traditional marriage.

Supporting gay marriage also does nothing to defend traditional marriage.  What has been called traditional marriage has been on the decline for decades and heterosexuals have done enough over that time to trash it.  Gay marriage does not help. It just another slap in a string of slaps against it.

[Jeanne]

I understand that as I understand LDS doctrine  But you can hate the sin and still give some inclusion..I am talking inclusion without all the conditions.  Conditional love isn't God'love.  At least to me.  It is kind of like ...we love you..but we hate the way you love.

[carbon dioxide]

5 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I understand that as I understand LDS doctrine  But you can hate the sin and still give some inclusion..I am talking inclusion without all the conditions.  Conditional love isn't God'love.  At least to me.  It is kind of like ...we love you..but we hate the way you love.

God's love is for the most part conditional love.  For example John 3:16 says God loved the world and gave his son and then the condition that those who believe will be saved.  What about those who choose not to believe.  Does God love also extend to them so they can be saved?  No.   God may love all of us in one sense but that love does not override eternal laws.  

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

God's love is for the most part conditional love.  For example John 3:16 says God loved the world and gave his son and then the condition that those who believe will be saved.  What about those who choose not to believe.  Does God love also extend to them so they can be saved?  No.   God may love all of us in one sense but that love does not override eternal laws.  

Well.I look at it this way  Those who do not believe..will not be attending church..although they should always have that choice.  Because God is loving..they get that choice.  But don't take that choice away..a church is four walls..everyone  should be welcomed.  I  understand where you are coming from..but there are sinners or sinners by LDS doctrine that still believe in many things.  Is that conditional..is the level of belief conditional?  What good is free agency and choice if it is not allowed to be exercised.

[Storm Rider]

6 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Well.I look at it this way  Those who do not believe..will not be attending church..although they should always have that choice.  Because God is loving..they get that choice.  But don't take that choice away..a church is four walls..everyone  should be welcomed.  I  understand where you are coming from..but there are sinners or sinners by LDS doctrine that still believe in many things.  Is that conditional..is the level of belief conditional?  What good is free agency and choice if it is not allowed to be exercised.

Free agency always exists, but consequences for our actions and choices come with it - they go together at all times.  One does not exist without the other.  

You can choose whatever you want, but your choices will come with consequences.  If you choose to live a life steeped in sin, you will reap those rewards.  Now, even at your worst you are always welcome to attend church.  The doors are always open, BUT when you return do not expect that you will be recognized as the new leader of the Church.  You actually will be recognized for who you are - have not seen you in a blue moon.  So good to see you here.  Would you please sit with our family.  You might not know the bishop, Bishop McGrew, this is an old friend of mine, Brother/Sister Johnson.  

That is the same way that all strangers should be welcomed in church. 

Simply because God defines what is sin does not mean sinners, any sinners, are not welcome in church.  The Church will welcome all who want to be welcomed.  If you attend and are not interested in being welcomed, guess what?  You will not feel welcomed by anyone regardless of what they say or do.  

You have been drinking the Kool-aid of those who want to be unwelcome in Church.  They want to be ostracized rather than be welcomed.  More importantly, they want to attend Church and not be recognized as a sinner, which is impossible to do.  We are all sinners, every day, all day.  

[thesometimesaint]

18 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I understand that as I understand LDS doctrine  But you can hate the sin and still give some inclusion..I am talking inclusion without all the conditions.  Conditional love isn't God'love.  At least to me.  It is kind of like ...we love you..but we hate the way you love.

Go thy way and sin no more wasn't a commandment to keep on sinning.

Don't hate me because I sin differently than you do.

Edited July 3, 2016 by thesometimesaint

[strappinglad]

There are organizations/churches where one can attend and advocate all manner of behaviors. The LDS church is not one of them. Try going to a Fast and Testimony meeting and standing to bear your testimony of the truthfulness and joy of theft or adultery or some other behavior you personally enjoy but the scriptures are against. There will be a " laying on of hands " in short order. Kind of like bringing a case of beer to pass around at an AA meeting. Frowned upon it is!

[rodheadlee]

On 7/1/2016 at 9:02 AM, Storm Rider said:

You sound more and more like a politician every day.  You began this thread by tying Church policies to suicide and now you are backing away from it because the truth is you have no data.  However, ever faithful to an activist's agenda, the Church still causes pain and suffering.  

I think sin causes pain and suffering and the Church teaches that there is a way out of that life into one of joy and forgiveness.  

Yep, no one likes to be told to repent. No one likes to be told their lifestyle is a sin.